Okay then. What would convince you that games are art? I'm not interested in writing several essays while looking for your sticking point any more than you are interested in reading them.lockecole21 said:
Mods are Odd: Do they detract from a game's artistic merit?
- Thread starter James Joseph Emerald
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Well, I can tell you why games are art until the cows come home, but it's all for naught unless YOU tell me why games AREN'T art. They fall into YOUR OWN DEFINITION of art, so the burden of proof is now squarely on you.lockecole21 said:
Defence of the Ancients was a Warcraft 3 mod. Team Fortress was a Quake mod. Hell, Minecraft could be considered an Infiniminer mod.
Mods are perhaps one of the greatest contributors to games overall. This also includes portions in aesthetics as you can largely see by mods for Bethesda games that improve upon the game's graphics without taking away from it.
Mods are perhaps one of the greatest contributors to games overall. This also includes portions in aesthetics as you can largely see by mods for Bethesda games that improve upon the game's graphics without taking away from it.
I think mods are awesome, they extend the lifespan of a game. A lot of them are awful, sure but some of them are truly breathtaking. A lot of the community will put their heart and souls into some of them, often making things that surpass the original game.
Personally, I tend to play Bethesda games through vanilla before I start modding. This isn't counting things like interface mods to make my life easier. Since I don't need size 32 font for all my text.
Personally, I tend to play Bethesda games through vanilla before I start modding. This isn't counting things like interface mods to make my life easier. Since I don't need size 32 font for all my text.
Oh, I was never intending to do anything like that. You've decided to be stubborn, so I can't really do anything over a forum that would change that.lockecole21 said:
All I was trying to do was to make you realize that it is a bit ignorant to preach your opinion, even implying that it is right simply because no one can change your mind, when you have nothing but a hastily crafted and uninformed understanding of art.
I mean, maybe you've spent hundreds of hours independently exploring the idea of what art is to you and the notion of video games as a medium, but there is no evidence of this.
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you have done nothing to educate yourself on the subject at hand and then go about being extremely vocal about your incredibly biased views, I simply cannot respect it.
I hear so many people insist that games are not art, and a painfully small amount of these people have put any critical thought into their opinion.
Its like people adamantly defending a political view when they don't can't be bothered to read the news once and a while. Such behavior is simply a disservice to both sides.
Apples and Oranges, I'm afraid. The mediums are sufficiently different. Also, does fanfiction detract from a book's artistic merit? The original is still there, isn't it? And yes, most fanfiction is garbage, but then again most Oblivion mods were garbage too. It's the few good ones that make it worth it, isn't it? And just like with fanfiction, nobody is forcing you to use mods.
Games are unique because they are an interactive art form. I consider both creation and the act playing of said mod, to be part of the interactive experience intended. It actually shows you have a great appreciation for the piece if you create a mod.
Books and Movies are not interactive, so if you were to edit them yourself you would be perverting the original artist's work.
Books and Movies are not interactive, so if you were to edit them yourself you would be perverting the original artist's work.
So... You define video games as art BY YOURSELF when I ask you to, you still say you aren't convinced, and yet when I ask you why video games AREN'T art (I have no idea why you think they aren't, and you've given me no clue), you throw your hands up and sign off. I love how I'm supposed to convince you, yet when I try by actually trying to target why you think the way you do (which is how you convince people), you block me off and leave.lockecole21 said:
This wasn't a debate, this was a battle of wills.
well, BF2 for instance was a great game, but very moddable, I immediatley installed the Australian Defence Force Mod which I enjoyed alot, when you say this as an art form, well yes, but in a way your tweaking that art form to match your own perception of how it should be, sure its not the authors way of doing it, but the player is the storyteller, and the player can tell it however she/he wants to
You can't do a straight comparison between games and other artistic mediums, and anyone who says so is a bloody fool.
Gaming is all about player interaction, and modding a game is a more involved interaction with a game.
Anyway, modding just doesn't make a lick of sense in any other medium.
Gaming is all about player interaction, and modding a game is a more involved interaction with a game.
Anyway, modding just doesn't make a lick of sense in any other medium.
Guys, can we stay on the topic of mods, please? Every single discussion doesn't need to turn into "are video games art".
lockecole21 said:
1) Didn't threaten you, stated anger at your idiotic view.lockecole21 said:
2) You read one sentence and STOPPED. I gave my reasons.
3) You are starting to sound like you are just trying to stir up trouble and not actually care.
4) I don't care if you don't listen, that makes you ignorant in the debate. The mere fact you didn't even attempt to read my whole post, then respond in such a fashion asking me to restate what I already had further proves my point. You saw what you wanted, and nothing more.
The quality of most fanfiction doesn't change its relation to the original work, though, so my point still stands.dyre said:
Dirty Hipsters said:
zehydra said:
That keeps coming up, but here's where I think that analogy breaks down:Irridium said:
Fanfiction (or covers of other songs, as someone else said; or fan films in the context of movies) are inherently distinct from the experience of the original work. A fanfiction is derivative, and relies on the original work, like a mod, but it doesn't change how you perceive the original by altering the original in any way.
For example, one of the things that got really boring and irritating in Oblivion was the lame puffs of coloured smoke that all spells produced. Even when I made a super ultimate spell that could take down a Minotaur in one hit, it was the same effect from the initial "frost" spell. It's one of the primary reasons I never completed that game (as a mage, it made combat very unsatisfying). Now, if I had used a mod that added a bunch of awesome spell effects (I was on the XBOX360, so I had no access to them), it might have been a different experience that actually kept me interested long enough to complete the main story.
My point is that's something fanfiction doesn't really do. It can never really directly change the experience of the original work. I think fanfiction is to books what fan games are to games (example [http://www.sonicfangameshq.com/games.html]). Mods are something different, something unique to games.
Hmm, those are all good points, very succinctly made.mew4ever23 said:
My point is that -- and this might be just me -- but I think art is about control. It's about guiding someone through a story (even in paintings and sculptures). A game has rules and limits set by the game creators, designed to guide you through the game. With mods, you possess the ability to break those rules and readjust those limits as you see fit. But in the process, doesn't that remove some of the artistry of it? Even if it's an improvement, the mistakes an artist makes are as much a part of his creation as the accomplishments. Modifying someone's work, I think, will always remove a part of what the creator put into it (even if it's a part you don't enjoy). And so it detracts from / dilutes the artistic merit (even though it might be more fun). But that's just me. (And again, I'm not saying mods are bad. It's just something to consider)