Moral choice? Not much of one...

Recommended Videos

TrulyBritish

New member
Jan 23, 2013
473
0
0
Hello folks, my name is TrulyBritish, the Devilish Gentleman, the Gentleman Devil, and I (like many others it seems) have recently been replaying some games I've not played for quite a while. In this case the game in question is Mass Effect 2 and at one point I was completely stumped on an issue.
Note: I guess this could technically be a spoiler, so I chose to put it in spoiler tags although I doubt many people would be particularly irate seeing as the game came out, what, 3 or 4 years ago? For reference, it's Samara's loyalty mission.
Why on Earth would a person choose to help Morinth over Samara in her loyalty mission? Logically I mean, the only reason i can think of is in order to get the 30(?) Renegade points instead of Paragon. One one side we have a morality driven knight errant who is already sworn to your service, and on the other side we have an unrepentant mass murderer who specialises in tricking people into mating with her to satiate an addictive thirst for greater power. It just makes no sense to me how anyone could sincerely support Morinth.
Anyhow, this is just an example, but what I'm really interested is in what other games or occasions have you come across where you've been given a moral choice but you cannot really consider it a proper choice due to one option being clearly better/more logical?
 

DementedSheep

New member
Jan 8, 2010
2,654
0
0
Presumably because she has the potential to be stronger.

Or because you're playing your shep as sex-crazed egotistical moron and think siding with Morinth and then attempting to fuck her is a fitting end for them.

I know there are tons but being brain dead right now so I'll just go with the NWN "I'm keeping this baby for myself". It's DnD pure evil but even if I was completely lacking in morals the hell am I going to do with this? eat it to prove how evil I am? Sacrifice it? Gather some more babies, skin them and make the most eeeeevvviiiiil pair of boots ever made? ok I'll stop that train of thought now.
 

GreyNicor

New member
Mar 5, 2014
55
0
0
One thing that came to mind was a flash game series called "Rebirth"
It's a zombie survival game where you assign workers to positions each turn, it's pretty fun.

Anyway, at one point almost every other game I got a random event that said that a moving brothel came to our town and asked me to trade one of our women for a rocket launcher (note that every person in this game is micromanaged and has a name, there are no nameless or invisible people) which sounded completely absurd from a moral perspective.

Especially since in one play through I deliberately choose for it to see how it was and I did not even find the RPG that much better then my other weapons, even more so when you consider that you gave up a civ for that weapon (I found more workers often much more valuable then equipment).

Gameplay wise this decision did not make sense and if you factor in the moral weight there never really was a choice to begin with.
 

Doctor Teatime

New member
Dec 2, 2013
49
0
0
Well, I can think of one other possible, if admittedly weak, justification for the whole Samara choice.

Samara pretty much states that she might have to kill you once released from your service if you do anything against her oath while she serves you. A renegade player will probably have done at least a few questionable things from her perspective, so yeah, pre-emptive strike I guess? it still doesn't make much sense, I know.

Incidentally I was also just replaying Mass Effect 2 and another choice that struck me as odd is the one from Legion's mission.

It's not that there's a obviously superior choice so much as the fact that there's one renegade and one paragon choice. Rewriting vs killing the heretics is one of those choices that could be argued about forever from a moral standpoint and yet the game presents it as a clear renegade/paragon divide. Heck, just going into that mission I couldn't remember which way around it actually was but I figured rewriting was the renegade option and when I got to the end it turned out to be the other way around.
 

Eclectic Dreck

New member
Sep 3, 2008
6,662
0
0
There are a handful of reasons why you might side with Morinth.

1) Samara is tightly bound by a morale code and while she is sworn to your service she has promised any transgression will be repaid once the task is finished. Depending upon how morally flexible your interpretation of Shepard is, this amounts to hanging out with a living sword of Damocles waiting to strike. By contrast, Morinth is fairly amoral which means you'd be free to conduct business as you wish with the only catch being how you'd gain her trust (especially after you violated her mother's trust so recently).

2) Samara is fairly old for an Asari and Morinth is a powerful biotic in the prime of her life. This becomes the classic quandary of youthful vigor versus elder experience.

3) You have no reason to trust Samara in the slightest beyond her saying "I can be trusted". Given that both Samara and Morinth take life without pity for causes that are barely justifiable archaic nonsense on the one hand and a physiological and neurological impairment on the other, any choice would be risky.

3) You saved Morinth's life which is a heavy debt that could go far in ensuring someone's loyalty. By contrast, Samara is willing to help once her current mission is complete because she doesn't have anything more pressing going on at the moment. The life debt seems like the more stable partnership to me.

All that said, I opted for Samara simply because I felt I could make better use of a veteran biotic well versed in asymmetric combat than I could, well, a serial killer.

I would point out though that few choices in Mass Effect were actual moral quandaries. I played through the franchise and made choices based on what was sensible in the moment without even bothering to consider the choice's status as paragon and renegade. Using that metric, a Shepard ends up about 80% paragon in each of the games because the renegade choice was usually incredibly stupid and short sighted. Unless the choice was presented as a conversation interrupt - virtually every renegade interrupt represented the best possible choice.
 

Maximum Bert

New member
Feb 3, 2013
2,149
0
0
Well I chose Morinth (first time) because I thought she had the better power it actually helped a ton on the insanity run although by the last mission its useless thanks to harbinger so I should have swapped it for something else maybe Samaras actually as that would have been a handy power in the final stretch.

So I guess I just looked at the choice from a practical standpoint honestly I didnt care which blue creature stayed around much. The morality didnt enter in to it because more important things were tied up in that choice.

First of all the game has to actually make me care for its characters and get into it before I can make any moral choice which not many do at least if the moral choice is black and white. The legacy of Kain had a good moral choice at the end where it was basically take the evil route and damn the land but live and rule it or the good route of self sacrifice saving the land but killing yourself, here the moral route was technically easy from an outside point but since I liked the character so much it became a lot harder. If I didnt care about Kain at all it would have been a no brainer just save the world and finish what I was supposed to do.

The witcher also does good moral choices but in a different way because its not black and white. Most games moral choices consist of kill/save the kitten so its pretty obvious what you are getting be a dick or not be a dick.
 

Evonisia

Your sinner, in secret
Jun 24, 2013
3,257
0
0
BioShock Infinite pulls this stuff constantly. Do you choose to give Elizabeth the necklace of the bird of the necklace of the bird cage? Do you help the interracial couple or join in the racism? And so on. None of those decisions have any effect on the story, the gameplay or the endings.

Silent Hill: Downpour does this as well:

Every decision you make results with the same outcome. The only difference is that making the decision changes the ending depending on whether you were being nice or nasty. Trying to help Anne doesn't stop her from falling off the edge, for example, but helping her contributes to the good ending.

It also adds the morale choice of killing monsters. Killing more monsters will have a negative impact on the ending, implying that Murphy needs to get over his violent outbursts lest he be punished for his deeds

Saints Row IV parodies that riff raff, giving you a moral choice between killing yourself (and by extension saving Humanity) or staying alive (but by extension dooming Humanity).
 

Sniper Team 4

New member
Apr 28, 2010
5,433
0
0
I rarely find that games do a good job of presenting hard moral questions. As Yahtzee puts it, most of the time the 'evil' option is just evil for the sake of being evil. Those no real benefit for choosing the evil option, and a lot of the time the evil option (as you pointed out) makes no sense when you think about it.

A few exceptions where I've had to actually struggle with the choice:
Dragon Age: Origins. Who do you put on the dwarf throne? To this day, I still have trouble with that one. It's clear that one choice is corrupt, evil, power hungry, a murderer, and will be a tyrant on the throne--but he says he wants to give hope to the hopeless, and he does! He ushers in a golden age of the kingdom, so it's not all bad. The other choice is kind, wise, and a good person. He will be a fair and just ruler, but he doesn't change anything in the kingdom. This choice still bothers me, because I don't know which one is 'right'.
Another is the choice you are forced to make between the soldier and the civilian in Spec Ops: The Line. The two that are hung up. I know it becomes a mute point after how the game ends, but still.
 

Johnny Novgorod

Bebop Man
Legacy
Feb 9, 2012
19,347
4,013
118
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II has an interesting variation on the moral choice aspect. Halfway through the game there's a live-action cutscene where protagonist Kyle Katarn has to choose whether to kill or spare a friend. Except you don't choose what to do, the game does it for you based on whether you've been purchasing light side upgrades or dark side upgrades. Past this point of no return the game follows two very different paths. The levels remain the same but the bosses you face are different and the live-action cutscenes - including the endings, obviously - are unique to each path.

I think that's the way to do a moral choice - make it the character's choice, not your own, based on his or her own organic growth throughout the game. And offer different kinds of paths/endings.
 

Mikejames

New member
Jan 26, 2012
797
0
0
I think it could have been more in-depth if Morinth was something other than a serial killer, i.e. someone running away from imprisonment whereas Samara was a good person simply bound by law to bring her down.

As is, it's mainly there for a staunch good vs. evil.
 

Cybylt

New member
Aug 13, 2009
284
0
0
Doctor Teatime said:
Well, I can think of one other possible, if admittedly weak, justification for the whole Samara choice.

Samara pretty much states that she might have to kill you once released from your service if you do anything against her oath while she serves you. A renegade player will probably have done at least a few questionable things from her perspective, so yeah, pre-emptive strike I guess? it still doesn't make much sense, I know.

Incidentally I was also just replaying Mass Effect 2 and another choice that struck me as odd is the one from Legion's mission.

It's not that there's a obviously superior choice so much as the fact that there's one renegade and one paragon choice. Rewriting vs killing the heretics is one of those choices that could be argued about forever from a moral standpoint and yet the game presents it as a clear renegade/paragon divide. Heck, just going into that mission I couldn't remember which way around it actually was but I figured rewriting was the renegade option and when I got to the end it turned out to be the other way around.
They patched it to be renegade is rewrite at some point. I don't think that quest should have had that choice tied to the morality system because it's far too grey for something that's otherwise a very black and white binary.
 

Kyrian007

Nemo saltat sobrius
Legacy
Mar 9, 2010
2,658
755
118
Kansas
Country
U.S.A.
Gender
Male
Black and White "g vs e" choices are generally (almost but not quite always, there's always an exception) pretty bad in video games. It's always more about doubling play time than ACTUALLY challenging the morality of the player. But I found a good and bad example of moral choice... in the SAME GAME.

Fallout: NV.

Dumb Moral Choice - Siding with or against the Legion. They make a few weak attempts to make it seem like a good person might want to side with the Legion. "At least the roads are safe" is about as good as it gets. But clearly the Legion is BAD and you side with the legion on your "evil" playthrough and only try to do the opposite for the novelty of it.

Choice That Made Me Think and Evaluate My Actions - Siding With the NCR, Mr. House, or turning on both and taking New Vegas for yourself. The first time I played, I was compelled to side with House. I was familiar with the NCR and did equate them with "the Good guys," but they seemed to be getting a little expansionist. Nothing wrong with them, but I was digging the "freedom and the future" riff House was putting down.

**warning, large NV spoilers ahead**
Until he asked me to eliminate the Brotherhood.

As far as factions go, I was a Follower more than anything. It was a squeaky good playthrough (my normal 1st play) and there's nobody "gooder" than the Followers. But I was primarily using Veronica as a companion. I had settled the Brotherhood down and convinced them to be Knights and Paladins "protecting the wastes." I had reconciled Veronica with the group and was pretty happy about how that turned out. I couldn't then turn around and kill them just because that's what House wanted. I couldn't do that and still BE a good guy... I could have picked that moment to side with the NCR, but instead I took House down and claimed New Vegas for myself.

I told myself it was for the best. I was a Follower, a good person. Surely what I do will be the best for everyone... right? But that's when it hit me.

I was following Benny's path. I was using Benny's plan. The one guy in the game I flat out executed for his crimes. To protect everyone from his ambition. And I was doing EXACTLY what he was going to do.

That realization hit me pretty hard. I followed my path anyway, destroyed the Legion and kept the NCR to their holdings at McCarran and the Dam. Liberated the Strip. Cleaned up Freeside and let the Brotherhood keep the wastelends safe. But I almost didn't. The choice was a hard one. And what right did I have to make that choice? Sure, my intentions were more noble than Benny's. The outcome was far better than if he had succeeded. But did I really have any more right to do what I did than he would have?

Like I said, that one actually made me think. I'm only on my 2nd run through FO:NV now. This time I'm all in for the Bear. I'll let someone else shoulder that decision.
 

EyeReaper

New member
Aug 17, 2011
859
0
0
What I think is worse is that Bioware totally knows the choice is stupid. I mean, look at Mass Effect 3. Samara gets a whole mission about a monastery. What does Morinth get? An email and then banshee-fied. Which just reeks of "We didn't feel like this character is worth being in the third game." She doesn't even fight differently. She's just a normal mook. She could have at least gotten a sympathetic death or something.

Anyways, on the topic of Moral choice systems. There's one big problem with them for me. I dub it the "Infamous" problem, in that, if you don't fully dedicate yourself to either all good or all evil, you aren't getting the best shit. It seems like Shin Megami Tensei is the only series where playing neutral is rewarding. In the words of Yahtzee (paraphrased) "You are either Mother Teresa, or you eat puppies"
 

ForumSafari

New member
Sep 25, 2012
572
0
0
Doctor Teatime said:
Incidentally I was also just replaying Mass Effect 2 and another choice that struck me as odd is the one from Legion's mission.

It's not that there's a obviously superior choice so much as the fact that there's one renegade and one paragon choice. Rewriting vs killing the heretics is one of those choices that could be argued about forever from a moral standpoint and yet the game presents it as a clear renegade/paragon divide. Heck, just going into that mission I couldn't remember which way around it actually was but I figured rewriting was the renegade option and when I got to the end it turned out to be the other way around.
Legion even makes it clear that both are equivalent as far as he is concerned. Geth don't have a concept of 'sanctity of life' because of the way they function, as far as they're concerned rewriting a program is morally permissible and once that's done the old program is no longer functionally the same, whatever the Geth runtime was before is gone but it doesn't matter because runtimes are scaled up and down as needed so each 'Geth' only has a short lifespan anyway. Geth 'die' when they're transferred between servers anyway, your choice isn't to change their opinions but to change that of the next iteration of Geth instances, besides which changing the nuts and bolts of the software would probably result in killing all live Geth instances anyway and then kicking off new instances with the updated parameter.

Once that's accepted the biggest moral challenge in destroying the mobile platform hardware is in making sure the heavy metals are safely recycled. Since an individual Geth runtime doesn't matter (they are after all just simple AI, they do a good job of looking sentient but they aren't individually) and more can be fired up instantly the only reason you'd feel sorry about destroying the space station is because the mobile servers they occasionally use resemble people.

Essentially the only choice you're making is whether to give the main Geth collective a bunch of second hand servers.

Incidentally as someone who works with and studies networking and virtualisation the Geth were a really compelling use of AI in fiction.
 

RedDeadFred

Illusions, Michael!
May 13, 2009
4,896
0
0
DementedSheep said:
"You are either Mother Teresa, or you eat puppies"
And here is the problem with choice in many games. That's why I think choices in games should be for a purely narrative reason and not for some weird, "my character must be ultimate evil so they can pass this speech check later" reason. Bastion did this really well even though the choices were at the very end of the game. The fact that I wasn't worrying about some stupid paragon/renegade score made the decisions feel a lot more emotionally weighty.
 

Ubiquitous Duck

New member
Jan 16, 2014
472
0
0
I think that you could compare it to choosing your companions in the Baldur's Gate games.

It is so blatantly obvious who the 'good' and trustworthy people are, compared with the 'evil' and untrustworthy people, I mean it is even on the fact sheet about the character in clear writing.

But you will still have playthroughs where you take the 'bad' people, because 'good' people won't follow you if you take the evil path. So perhaps you could see the taking of Morinth as the taking of someone who is closer to your ideals and methodology for solving problems - by killing everyone. Samara would openly object to your methods and, as other people have stated, is duty bound to seek justice on your misdeeds after her service with you is complete (so she could potentially kill you).

It is also suggested to some extent that Morinth has greater powers towards killing and manipulation, so would make her a more attractive proposition for a team geared towards violence (although in Mass Effect this is very often the only option, so I get that this doesn't make great sense in practice).
 

Bebus

New member
Feb 12, 2010
366
0
0
I think of all the games I've played, The Witcher series manages to do it best. There is very rarely an obviously "better" choice, and the game doesn't really punish you for making one choice over another: something that truly frustrated me about Mass Effect. You might get different gear one way or another, and the story is definitely different, but never objectively "better". The exception could be some of the monster quests (Adda in 1, Trolls in 2, etc) where there's the easy option of killing them for the reward, or the difficult option of helping them for a different, usually better reward, but even that balances effort and outcome really nicely.

On the other hand, in ME there is usually absolutely no benefit to most of the renegade options in the game, other than (in my opinion) a superior story, and for a lot of people that's not enough. Why the hell would anybody, for example in ME3,

<spoiler=ME3 Spoiler>Sabotage the genophage cure? Despite what you are told by the salarian, the EMS score of that outcome is substantially inferior. Is the story enough to make the choice viable? I think so: even with "perfect" outcomes up to that point, I see no future for the krogan except for an uncontrollable explosion in the population of a species which has evolved by necessity towards violence and aggression, the overthrowing of Wrex now his only leverage is gone, and a bleak future.

But the game doesn't present any particularly compelling arguments for the choice: it's sabotage the cure, be a monster, and get a worse outcome, or be a damned hero, ignore the stark reality of what you're potentially doing to placate a couple of your friends, and make everybody happy for plentiful EMS points.

This problem is quite consistent across the games: despite renegade supposedly being about doing dirty things to get the job done, the outcome of these actions is almost always worse than being a goody-girl paragon. That's not a moral choice: if you want there to be any reason at all to choose a renegade option, at least make it so the rewards are greater! Then players have a real choice choice: do you take the harder but "right" path, or the one with the greater outcome, at the cost of your morals? As it stands, the choice is go renegade, piss a load of people off, and get a worse outcome, or choose paragon, make everybody happy, and get a better outcome.

Aside from wanting a more compelling story, there's absolutely nothing even making players consider renegade choices. The Morinth/Samara one you mention is just plain silly: I can see some people disagreeing with Samara's Code but given a choice between her and somebody who has slaughtered hundreds of innocent people for her own pleasure, with her mind? Yeah... that's not a renegade choice. That's just suicide.

Anyway, on the Witcher, I really enjoy how things are framed in this game world.

<spoiler=Spoilers for Witcher 1 & 2>Everything's awful, and your choices are usually different flavours of awful and even if you want to do the right thing, sometimes there just isn't one. Do you turn the young elven woman accused of colluding with local elven... "freedom fighters"... over to the city guard, knowing she's likely to be raped and tortured, or let her go? And if you let her go... turns out she was colluding, and leads you into a trap where the "freedom fighters" try to kill you anyway! You can find her again after that: what do you do then?

Or in the first game, if you've been generally sympathetic to the plight of the elves, what do you do when a bank robbery threatens to turn into a slaughter? It's one thing to steal money, but another to kill people who are trying to stop you... and, best of all, staying out of it is an option for those who think both sides are awful!

That's how moral choices should be done, I think. Make it ambiguous. Don't stick stupid morality meters on things. Make each choice unique, with unique outcomes... that aren't objectively better or worse than the others.
 

Mangod

Senior Member
Feb 20, 2011
829
0
21
Really, as has been said before, and far more eloquently, almost all "moral choice systems" suffer from the same issue; they are utterly binary. You are either a paragon of virtue, with love in your heart and a smile on your face for all the creatures of Gods kingdom... or you're Emperor Sauron Palpatine "The Butcher" Harkonnen, a vile monstrosity bereft of any positive qualities whatsoever, wearing the skin of a man because your true form would be incomprehensible to the mortal mind.

Slight exaggeration, but the point stands; you're either complete good, or complete evil, and the problem is... that's not a person. That's a Chick Tract.
 

The Wykydtron

"Emotions are very important!"
Sep 23, 2010
5,458
0
0
Kyrian007 said:
Black and White "g vs e" choices are generally (almost but not quite always, there's always an exception) pretty bad in video games. It's always more about doubling play time than ACTUALLY challenging the morality of the player. But I found a good and bad example of moral choice... in the SAME GAME.

Fallout: NV.

Dumb Moral Choice - Siding with or against the Legion. They make a few weak attempts to make it seem like a good person might want to side with the Legion. "At least the roads are safe" is about as good as it gets. But clearly the Legion is BAD and you side with the legion on your "evil" playthrough and only try to do the opposite for the novelty of it.

Choice That Made Me Think and Evaluate My Actions - Siding With the NCR, Mr. House, or turning on both and taking New Vegas for yourself. The first time I played, I was compelled to side with House. I was familiar with the NCR and did equate them with "the Good guys," but they seemed to be getting a little expansionist. Nothing wrong with them, but I was digging the "freedom and the future" riff House was putting down.

**warning, large NV spoilers ahead**
Until he asked me to eliminate the Brotherhood.

As far as factions go, I was a Follower more than anything. It was a squeaky good playthrough (my normal 1st play) and there's nobody "gooder" than the Followers. But I was primarily using Veronica as a companion. I had settled the Brotherhood down and convinced them to be Knights and Paladins "protecting the wastes." I had reconciled Veronica with the group and was pretty happy about how that turned out. I couldn't then turn around and kill them just because that's what House wanted. I couldn't do that and still BE a good guy... I could have picked that moment to side with the NCR, but instead I took House down and claimed New Vegas for myself.

I told myself it was for the best. I was a Follower, a good person. Surely what I do will be the best for everyone... right? But that's when it hit me.

I was following Benny's path. I was using Benny's plan. The one guy in the game I flat out executed for his crimes. To protect everyone from his ambition. And I was doing EXACTLY what he was going to do.

That realization hit me pretty hard. I followed my path anyway, destroyed the Legion and kept the NCR to their holdings at McCarran and the Dam. Liberated the Strip. Cleaned up Freeside and let the Brotherhood keep the wastelends safe. But I almost didn't. The choice was a hard one. And what right did I have to make that choice? Sure, my intentions were more noble than Benny's. The outcome was far better than if he had succeeded. But did I really have any more right to do what I did than he would have?

Like I said, that one actually made me think. I'm only on my 2nd run through FO:NV now. This time I'm all in for the Bear. I'll let someone else shoulder that decision.
I KNOW RIGHT?! Fuck the Legion. The only thing going for them is that Caesar is a pretty cool guy. The moment he dies shit's going to go down immediately. I've spent several playthroughs trying to find a good reason to pick Legion, looking from several perspectives and maybe if you're playing a homicidal manic who specialises in making terrible life choices the Legion is the choice for you.

I went for Mr House first time. Seriously, that guy is awesome. I know he's kind of a dictator but hey, whatcha gonna do? He's the man with the plan. The only man with a plan in fact.