Moral Choice Systems: Could they work?

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Mike Fang

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Mar 20, 2008
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Something that Yahtzee has pointed out frequently here (and a number of people have agreed with) is that moral choice systems in games are never a good idea as they're currently implemented. That's because the damn things always seem to follow the same formula; you've got a good option and an evil option for things like dialogue or quests/missions and usually in the end, they just result in one of two different endings for the game, either painting you as a saint or the anti-christ. So how can we fix this?

Well the first thing would be to have a few more possible endings besides the saint/demon ones. Now you obviously can't create an ending for ever single possible iteration of the human moral compass, but you can probably come up with a few more than just two. Personally, I think the ideal number would be four. This would widen the range of morality based on the ratio of kind actions to cruel ones while still not being difficult to balance. The four different endings would have one of four general messages about the player character: A) "He/She was a generous, selfless person who helped everyone in need." B) "He/She was a much-liked person who helped a lot of people, but was still human and made some mistakes." C) "He/She was a very flawed person, causing a lot of damage but still showed some compassion at times." D) "He/She was a malicious sadist who did nothing but destroy everyone and everything that crossed their path."

The second thing I'd change about moral choice systems is the addition of options to apologize and make amends. Say, for example, your character was told a certain person was committing crimes because he'd been lied to and tricked...but when you finally cornered them, they were holding a child hostage at gunpoint. The virtuous option would naturally be to drop your weapon and try to talk him down, while a less noble one would be to just say "who cares he's been lied to" and just shoot him in the head.

Odds are if you did this, an NPC somewhere immediately afterward would be appalled that you blew the head off a guy who you knew had been duped into breaking the law. But with current moral choice systems, most player characters aren't given any dialogue options that show any form of regret or emotional burden. Instead, most often the dialogue option given would be something along the lines of "He was asking for it." You might get something like "He took a child hostage, I wasn't going to take any chances," which is a legitimate argument, but put in those exact words, it sounds less like the PC is pricked by conscience about he/she had to do, and more like he/she is coldly justifying it and to hell with any collateral damage they caused.

The addition of an apology option would change a lot and make your character come across as much less two-dimensional. The asshole and indifferent responses could be left in there, but for those who actually DO want to respond with some chagrin and regret could have additional dialogue options. For the above example, something like "I wish I could have found another way, but I couldn't risk the kid's life if I blew it" would work.

Other times there could be moments when you really are just fed up and want to do something that's considered an "evil" act. Another example: you want to pass through the territory of an NPC group, you're in a hurry, but these people are behaving like pricks towards you because they don't trust outsiders. They're telling you that you can't pass through their land until you prove you can be trusted by going and bringing them...and that's when you tell them to stick it up their ass sideways, kick the patrol guards in the balls, and run through their territory, *****-slapping the guards when you have to until you get to the other side, pausing to give them the finger on your way out.

Sometime later you find out that while the guards were busy with your impatience, bandits snuck in and caused a fair amount of damage; maybe injured some people, stole some valuables, etc. Now your normal moral choice system would just say "too bad, you fucked up, it's on your permanent record." That's why I think they should give you a chance to make amends. If a faction in a game isn't defined as an evil one, their NPCs could be made to only attack the PC if they have a weapon in their hand or if they have a sufficiently evil reputation. Of course they'd sooner spit on the PC as look at him and dialogue options would be cut off so long as they don't feel at least neutral towards him.

This can lead to the options to let players make amends by completing small side quests geared to bury the hatchet for him with a given NPC or NPC faction. In the above example, the PC could do things like repair buildings the bandit's wrecked, donate medicine or other things to help the wounded, or go searching for the bandit camp to retrieve the stolen belongings. As far as the PC's good/evil ratio, this wouldn't completely undo the bad points received (because making amends doesn't mean you completely erase your mistake). However, it would remove a noticeable chunk of them.

So those are a couple of my thoughts on how to make a moral choice system work. Has anyone else thought about what might be done differently in a game to make them seem less black and white?
 

Pink Gregory

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Jul 30, 2008
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I 'unno, the general consensus seems to be that a points system beyond the direct consequences of your actions is generally a bad thing (and frankly, it is).

It's a large and detailed world that would be able to react dynamically to your choices in game, and have the consequences play out meaningfully in that if affects the world as well as you. But I don't think we have the extent of technology (not to mention budget) to get there, yet.
 

Pimwing

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PieBrotherTB said:
It's a large and detailed world that would be able to react dynamically to your choices in game, and have the consequences play out meaningfully in that if affects the world as well as you. But I don't think we have the extent of technology (not to mention budget) to get there, yet.
What he/she says is quite true, until we will be able to program true AI's we will be only able to simulate a living world on a grand scale, without any depth or meaning to a specific person.

There is of course the option to try and preempt the things most people would do. In both action and dialog.
 

Roxas1359

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Aug 8, 2009
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I think they can if they don't have it be such extremes like being either Mother Theresa or Activision's President. I think that New Vegas did moral choice right in that you're good deeds are noticed and your bad deeds are noticed as well, and while you get a certain ending with each faction your good and bad accomplishments are accounted for and you're not just lumped into being either Jesus or the worst thing to ever exist. That was a major step up from games like Fallout 3 where stealing a baby and killing its parents is the good option, or Bioshock where if you harvest 2 or 3 Little Sisters (why would you?) then suddenly your the worst person ever and you're going to kill everything. Really I guess for moral choice to work I think they need to do something like the factions from Fallout New Vegas where you could be different levels of good, bad, or mixture for just one group and not the entire damn game. Now I'm off to play some more New Vegas.
 

hazabaza1

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Nov 26, 2008
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If you've got to have points/ a bar don't make it good or evil, make is Chaos and Order. Easier to define with actual thinking involved in doing "the right thing".
 

Rawne1980

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I've yet to see a good moral choice system.

BioWare are fething clueless when it comes to them. In ME, I didn't pick the choice for the dialogue, I picked it because the higher the paragon or renegade the more it unlocked later on.

Same with SW:TOR. I don't pick light/dark side choices to progress the story in that way, I picked them because I needed light/dark level 5 in order to equip certain gear.

Same with older BioWare games. KOTOR, got my light points up so I could nail Bastila and be a happy Revan.

Dishonored doesn't do too badly. It's not about what you say so much as how you act. If you act like a tit and go on a killing spree then the world reflects that, if you act decently and don't kill so much the world is a better place. Children and puppies can sleep better knowing you aren't a massive penis.

Awwww.

So it boils down either being a complete wanker or Saint hugskittens. Some of the time you only aim for one or the other because you need to unlock something.

I'm not a fan of moral choice systems.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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Feb 20, 2011
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Anyone who is currently convinced that moral choice systems can never work, go and pick up Splinter Cell: Double Agent. Go. Do it, now (and make sure you get the PS2 version, the 360 version is an almost completely different game and, in this instance at least, the PS2 one is far better).

I will defend the 'trust meter' in Double Agent to the death as an example of moral choice done right. Basic background (Minor Spoiler Alert): Sam Fisher, emotionally unstable super operative, is put undercover by the NSA with a domestic terrorist organisation called John Brown's Army (JBA for short). Throughout the game you're faced with a number of 'moral' choices, where your orders from the NSA and JBA differ. Doing what the NSA wants reassures them that you haven't been turned, but do it too many times and your cover in the JBA is blown. Vice-versa, doing what the JBA wants helps convince them that you're one of them, which is the point of your entire mission after all, but cross too many lines and the NSA will think you've gone rogue. The aim of this system is not to do a 'good' or 'bad' playthrough, but to delicately weigh up the potential consequences of every choice in an attempt to keep trust with both sides as even as possible.

This system is good because it's not a matter of 'make selfless choice because you're a saint/make evil choice because you're a dick/make neutral choice because you're boring'. Instead, it's about consequences. When you're faced with a choice, you might not *want* to obey the JBA's orders, but you also know that if you don't you might *have* to do something even worse to appease them later on. This is the sort of genuine moral conflict that other so-called moral choice systems seem to miss. It also marries perfectly with Sam's emotional state in the story. Already under stress, and now being pulled apart between two opposite factions. It builds suspense as you wonder where his breaking point is going to be. Finally, it affects gameplay too in a significant sense. If you finish a level with the JBA trusting more in you than the NSA, then the loadout you get in the next mission contains more lethal weaponry than non-lethal, which makes it that little (but vital) bit harder to level the scales again in the next mission, when you know that's what you have to do.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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Feb 20, 2011
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Rawne1980 said:
I've yet to see a good moral choice system.

BioWare are fething clueless when it comes to them. In ME, I didn't pick the choice for the dialogue, I picked it because the higher the paragon or renegade the more it unlocked later on.

Same with SW:TOR. I don't pick light/dark side choices to progress the story in that way, I picked them because I needed light/dark level 5 in order to equip certain gear.

Same with older BioWare games. KOTOR, got my light points up so I could nail Bastila and be a happy Revan.

Dishonored doesn't do too badly. It's not about what you say so much as how you act. If you act like a tit and go on a killing spree then the world reflects that, if you act decently and don't kill so much the world is a better place. Children and puppies can sleep better knowing you aren't a massive penis.

Awwww.

So it boils down either being a complete wanker or Saint hugskittens. Some of the time you only aim for one or the other because you need to unlock something.

I'm not a fan of moral choice systems.
Trying hard not to sound like too much of a frothing fan-boy making 2 posts in a row like this, but if that's your stance on conventional moral choice systems (pretty much the same as mine) then you sound like the sort of person who might really enjoy the system implemented in Splinter Cell: Double Agent if you haven't played it before.
 

Rawne1980

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NinjaDeathSlap said:
Trying hard not to sound like too much of a frothing fan-boy making 2 posts in a row like this, but if that's your stance on conventional moral choice systems (pretty much the same as mine) then you sound like the sort of person who might really enjoy the system implemented in Splinter Cell: Double Agent if you haven't played it before.
I haven't played that one before. I'll have to give that a look.

Getting a few ideas for new games here this week.

Cheers for that bud.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Morality is too human a thing to factor into video game design. Human relationships define morality, and there're infinite possibilities when it comes to relating between two single human beings, let alone a universe of individual NPCs. Characters can have a moral and a personality, sure, but the "realistic" take on morality would be something unstable, redefined constantly by a myriad things. It doesn't help that everybody has their own definition of morality either. We can hope for something simplistic, like a trust/favor/respect gauge, which moves in a very linear way. But a "morality system" will never work. Unless we're talking about a MMORPG where there're no NPCs and in this hypothetical virtual reality you can do the very things you can do in real life.
I think.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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Feb 20, 2011
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Rawne1980 said:
NinjaDeathSlap said:
Trying hard not to sound like too much of a frothing fan-boy making 2 posts in a row like this, but if that's your stance on conventional moral choice systems (pretty much the same as mine) then you sound like the sort of person who might really enjoy the system implemented in Splinter Cell: Double Agent if you haven't played it before.
I haven't played that one before. I'll have to give that a look.

Getting a few ideas for new games here this week.

Cheers for that bud.
No problem :)

In regards to the trust meter, the difference between the PS2 and 360 versions is that, on the PS2, there's only one meter, with the NSA at one end and the JBA at the other. On the 360, the NSA and JBA each have their own meter, with 'high' trust at one end and 'low' at the other. While the 360 version is more... 'dynamic' for want of a better term, with it being possible to have high trust with both groups at the same time (although that's by no means easy), for me, that actually takes a little bit of the tension and conflict out of the choices, which is why I said the PS2 version is the better one in this instance.
 

dyre

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I'm not a huge fan of moral choice systems, unless they're in a specific sort of fantasy game with clearly defined good and evil.

Choices of good and evil in morally ambiguous universes like the Mass Effect one just strike me as inconsistent. Those games don't need moral choice systems; they just need choice systems. Action A leads to a set of consequences, and Action B leads to another set of consequences. Sometimes, it might even be that the perceived "immoral" actions lead to perceived morally "superior" consequences. But deciding the morality of those actions and consequences should be up to the player.
 

crimson sickle2

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One thing I never like with moral choice systems is when they block your efforts to learn certain moves or attacks. It shouldn't matter how I get the job done, it should matter how many bodies are on the ground and if all the orphans got out ok. I usually don't like playing as a total asshole unless the NPCs respond in kind first, but when being an asshole means I get the power to throw lightning bolts or turn into a stabbing shadow of fun, it really makes me wonder why I'm being nice. Why can't I use the lightning to fuel the city block, or turn into a shadow to infiltrate a slave trader's base and get information?

I don't think games should delve too deep into morality meters though, morality shifts between each person (is it murder, or mercy killing?). I would suggest smaller relationship parameters for each side character in relation to the main character's actions. This will break the morality portions into smaller, more endearing characterization moments as opposed to a giant Judge Judy moment at the end.
 

Coffeejack

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Oct 1, 2012
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Rawne1980 said:
I've yet to see a good moral choice system.

BioWare are fething clueless when it comes to them. In ME, I didn't pick the choice for the dialogue, I picked it because the higher the paragon or renegade the more it unlocked later on.

Same with SW:TOR. I don't pick light/dark side choices to progress the story in that way, I picked them because I needed light/dark level 5 in order to equip certain gear.

Same with older BioWare games. KOTOR, got my light points up so I could nail Bastila and be a happy Revan.

Dishonored doesn't do too badly. It's not about what you say so much as how you act. If you act like a tit and go on a killing spree then the world reflects that, if you act decently and don't kill so much the world is a better place. Children and puppies can sleep better knowing you aren't a massive penis.

Awwww.

So it boils down either being a complete wanker or Saint hugskittens. Some of the time you only aim for one or the other because you need to unlock something.

I'm not a fan of moral choice systems.

I think Dishonored did a better job than the good/evil choices, but I'd like to see something like a four-point compass system eventually, not just the same old left-right slider job. Maybe one that has a list of personality types or plans. The middle point on the compass could be the indecision or inactivity stance, causing things to slowly but steadily go wrong around you because you had the power to act but did nothing.

With the compass system, you could actually add more paths over time, reaching 8 or more. F*cking hell, but that would take so much time and money...
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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I still think they need to fuck off.

Just give me a choice and then somewhere down the line give me the consequences.

Don't attach some kind of bullshit system to it. That never improves matters.
 

thesilentman

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Jun 14, 2012
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Moral choices are very binary, which ruins the whole appeal for me somewhat. The choices could work if they weren't as binary and didn't make you feel like either the happiest Good Samaritan that I am or the jerk that the ruler of Hell would appoint as his right hand.
 

Reincarnatedwolfgod

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Jan 17, 2011
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fallout new vegas did a pretty good job of a moral choice system. karma does not affect much of the game because the reputation with the factions is 10 times more important. the fact the reputation is important while karma almost meaningless is it the why karma good system. it so meaningless in the grand scheme of thing they might as well not have one
if it did matter considering killing Fiends and Feral Ghouls who attack you on site(thus it is self defense)gives 100 karma. there is a max of 1000 and a minim of -1000 karma. killing 20 of them can make the most evil character become next coming of Jesus. even if you are let say roleplaying a cannibalistic serial killer, you rips up little girls teddy bears for shits and giggles, and steal everything and still become Jesus.

there are mods to fix that and as i said karma is almost meaningless so.
 

lacktheknack

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Jan 19, 2009
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<link=http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/geneforge2/index.html>Yes.

It's quite simple: Stop making the scale about traditional good and evil, because we know EXACTLY how that will end. Make it a sliding scale of something else (linked example: how created sentience should be handled).