Morality in games

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Veylon

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Aug 15, 2008
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Maybe there ought to be some sort of tag system instead of a all-out Good/Evil bar.

Let's say that there's a base full of Imperial soldiers, and you head on over there and massacre every last one of them and burn the place to the ground. Now, in most games that would be marked as a Good act, and would make up for the time you killed all those helpless villagers and burned the place to the ground. Right?

The thing is, no matter how evil the Empire is or how good the Villagers were, you are performing essentially the same act. So doing it to both one side and then the other should gain you the fear and antipathy of both, rather than balancing things out. There should be something like this in your reputation stats somewhere:
Massacres: 100%
Hates Empire: 85%
Hates Villagers: 90%
Likes Puppies: 75%
And NPCs could respond accordingly. No matter how much of your ill-gotten gains you contribute to the local charities or how many puppies you rescue, you'd still be that guy who wiped out that village. Maybe you'd be thought of as more of a Knight Templar than a Barbarian, but no one would every mistake you for a Pacifist.
 

Trace2010

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Aug 10, 2008
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Okay...

Am I playing a morality play? Who cares?

And trust me- I spent 4 hours walking through Halo 2 capping every soldier I saw.
Spent 2 hours finding ingenious ways to kill Meryl in the room before Psycho Mantis.
Spent 2 more hours shooting at E.E. (and Snake) from the Sniping Level in MGS 2.

Does this make me a bad person- it's a video game!
 

Amnestic

High Priest of Haruhi
Aug 22, 2008
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DirkGently said:
Amnestic said:
DirkGently said:
Amnestic said:
relativley unknown game called Fallout 3
To quote any robot or computer ever: Bzzrt. Does not Compute. Does not compute.

I have yet to play Fallout 3, but seriously, you think it's obscure/unknown? :s

And yes, I do believe that if a game is going to have "morality" it could be a little deeper. Fable 2 briefly expanded on it with not just a Good-Bad scale but also a Corruption-Purity one, however obviously it's not nearly as flexible as real life in regards to variety of choices.
My dear boy, I can't believe you didn't get this.

But I do agree with you. A much more complex morality system is called for. With ratings for how you view death, mercy, slavery, prostitution, vice, etc. Not just 'a huge jerk' and 'a really nice guy'. Fable II added the purity/corruption which was a good start, though I prefer Fallout 3's Karma system is nice, and it doesn't influence the storyline and how it ends, just how people view you and how many hit squads are coming after you.
I assume by "This" you mean Fallout 3. To which I would respond "I'm poor at the moment. Sorry. All my meager funds are being spent on keeping myself alive."
By this I meant 'the sarcasm'.
Ah. Yeah I probably should have got it. Sarcasm transmits about as well through the intertubes as maple syrup would. ;( Mah bad.
 

Shadow88

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Oct 15, 2008
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I yet again notice that my post was not fully read. Am I too wordy? As shown by one of the above posters you need to READ the text to get the referance. A Bible is not radioactive or poisonus it WON'T KILL YOU and it will spare my sanity to see people referance it properly.
 

DirkGently

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Oct 22, 2008
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Amnestic said:
DirkGently said:
Amnestic said:
DirkGently said:
Amnestic said:
relativley unknown game called Fallout 3
To quote any robot or computer ever: Bzzrt. Does not Compute. Does not compute.

I have yet to play Fallout 3, but seriously, you think it's obscure/unknown? :s

And yes, I do believe that if a game is going to have "morality" it could be a little deeper. Fable 2 briefly expanded on it with not just a Good-Bad scale but also a Corruption-Purity one, however obviously it's not nearly as flexible as real life in regards to variety of choices.
My dear boy, I can't believe you didn't get this.

But I do agree with you. A much more complex morality system is called for. With ratings for how you view death, mercy, slavery, prostitution, vice, etc. Not just 'a huge jerk' and 'a really nice guy'. Fable II added the purity/corruption which was a good start, though I prefer Fallout 3's Karma system is nice, and it doesn't influence the storyline and how it ends, just how people view you and how many hit squads are coming after you.
I assume by "This" you mean Fallout 3. To which I would respond "I'm poor at the moment. Sorry. All my meager funds are being spent on keeping myself alive."
By this I meant 'the sarcasm'.
Ah. Yeah I probably should have got it. Sarcasm transmits about as well through the intertubes as maple syrup would. ;( Mah bad.
Yeah, it is. But seeing somebody not get it was a bit... odd.
 

Amnestic

High Priest of Haruhi
Aug 22, 2008
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DirkGently said:
Amnestic said:
DirkGently said:
Amnestic said:
DirkGently said:
Amnestic said:
relativley unknown game called Fallout 3
To quote any robot or computer ever: Bzzrt. Does not Compute. Does not compute.

I have yet to play Fallout 3, but seriously, you think it's obscure/unknown? :s

And yes, I do believe that if a game is going to have "morality" it could be a little deeper. Fable 2 briefly expanded on it with not just a Good-Bad scale but also a Corruption-Purity one, however obviously it's not nearly as flexible as real life in regards to variety of choices.
My dear boy, I can't believe you didn't get this.

But I do agree with you. A much more complex morality system is called for. With ratings for how you view death, mercy, slavery, prostitution, vice, etc. Not just 'a huge jerk' and 'a really nice guy'. Fable II added the purity/corruption which was a good start, though I prefer Fallout 3's Karma system is nice, and it doesn't influence the storyline and how it ends, just how people view you and how many hit squads are coming after you.
I assume by "This" you mean Fallout 3. To which I would respond "I'm poor at the moment. Sorry. All my meager funds are being spent on keeping myself alive."
By this I meant 'the sarcasm'.
Ah. Yeah I probably should have got it. Sarcasm transmits about as well through the intertubes as maple syrup would. ;( Mah bad.
Yeah, it is. But seeing somebody not get it was a bit... odd.
To err is human.

That's my defence and I'm sticking to it.
 

DirkGently

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Oct 22, 2008
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Amnestic said:
DirkGently said:
Amnestic said:
DirkGently said:
Amnestic said:
DirkGently said:
Amnestic said:
relativley unknown game called Fallout 3
To quote any robot or computer ever: Bzzrt. Does not Compute. Does not compute.

I have yet to play Fallout 3, but seriously, you think it's obscure/unknown? :s

And yes, I do believe that if a game is going to have "morality" it could be a little deeper. Fable 2 briefly expanded on it with not just a Good-Bad scale but also a Corruption-Purity one, however obviously it's not nearly as flexible as real life in regards to variety of choices.
My dear boy, I can't believe you didn't get this.

But I do agree with you. A much more complex morality system is called for. With ratings for how you view death, mercy, slavery, prostitution, vice, etc. Not just 'a huge jerk' and 'a really nice guy'. Fable II added the purity/corruption which was a good start, though I prefer Fallout 3's Karma system is nice, and it doesn't influence the storyline and how it ends, just how people view you and how many hit squads are coming after you.
I assume by "This" you mean Fallout 3. To which I would respond "I'm poor at the moment. Sorry. All my meager funds are being spent on keeping myself alive."
By this I meant 'the sarcasm'.
Ah. Yeah I probably should have got it. Sarcasm transmits about as well through the intertubes as maple syrup would. ;( Mah bad.
Yeah, it is. But seeing somebody not get it was a bit... odd.
To err is human.

That's my defence and I'm sticking to it.
Fair 'nuff.
 

Iron Mal

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Jun 4, 2008
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I personally find that whenever you give players a choice between being a saint and helping school kids across the road or being a demonic bastard who burns down villages for giggles they will almost go for the latter choice.

With this in mind, let me ask, 'what is the point of having a morality scale when you can almost guarentee that most people will do the same thing?'.
 

DirkGently

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Oct 22, 2008
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Trace2010 said:
Okay...

Am I playing a morality play? Who cares?

And trust me- I spent 4 hours walking through Halo 2 capping every soldier I saw.
Spent 2 hours finding ingenious ways to kill Meryl in the room before Psycho Mantis.
Spent 2 more hours shooting at E.E. (and Snake) from the Sniping Level in MGS 2.

Does this make me a bad person- it's a video game!
Yes, but you're not playing games that reflect a living world. You're playing action-y games where you're given a destination and told sneak past or kill every ************ between you and your goal, or some combination thereof.

I like the concept of a wide variety of ratings, though. Whether they're available for the player to see or not, however. I"d like to see a wide variety of ratings, and preferably, after any particularly complex decision, I'd like the chance to explain my decision to someone, so the game could accurately evaluate my decision as to why I shot down who I did. Maybe I wanted something they had, maybe it was revenge, maybe I'm just a sociopath and they had red hair. I mean it might get a bit repetitive, but I'd like to get a more full of my motivations. Sorry, this had a point but I got a bit distracted.
 

Raven28256

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Sep 18, 2008
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Okay, I didn't read all the posts here, but I want to add my two cents on the subject of moral choices in gaming.

I actually did a blog on this very subject not too long ago. Here is a copy and paste of it:

(Disclaimer: I personally love every game I'm about to rag on about. I just wanted to get that out of the way before the fanboys come in, read it, and then submit a 45 page essay flaming me about why my opinion is stupid, invalid, and wrong.)

Unless you have been living under a rock for the past decade, or you just plain aren't a gamer (In which case, why are you here reading this?) then you may have noticed that "moral choices" are the next big thing in gaming. This is especially true for RPGs. From Bioshock to Jade Empire, KOTOR to The Witcher, you can probably name fifteen games from the past five years or the near future that use this "moral choices" mechanic easily enough. But there is something missing. What is it, you ask?

Most of these games take a very, very simplistic approach to the mechanic.

There are a number of things that I have to complain about in regards to the way most games approach moral choices. As someone I know once so wisely put it, "Moral choices in general are pretty far-fetched and unrealistic. In real life, you won't stop for a second to consider if you should save a child drowning in the river, so why do games approach it in such a way?" In a way, I agree, but for different reasons.

For one, most games give you entirely too simple choices. They are extremely black and white. You are either good or evil. Take Bioshock, for example. In Bioshock you don't even have a "neutral" choice like you do in Mass Effect or Jade Empire. Bioshock is the perfect example of a very black and white game in regards to moral choices: You are either a Saint of Christ, or a Satanic baby-eater. There is no "middle" ground. Worse yet, in most games the "evil" choices aren't really evil. In games like Jade Empire, being "evil" means being a certified jerk-off. You aren't "evil;" you are little more than an arrogant thug, like the "gangstas" you might meet in a shady part of town.

This often extends to an arbitrary meter that shows how good or evil I am. In games like Mass Effect, you will often find yourself choosing certain choices just to move the meter. In which case it isn't choices made because of morality, it is choices made to push the meter further in one direction or the other. You are letting the meter dictate your personal beliefs in the game.

The most damning complaint I have with moral choices are that, often times, the choices have little impact. In Mass Effect, your moral choices usually only have one, instant effect: The meter moves closer to Paragon or Renegade. In most of these games, your choices rarely have lasting side effects beyond moving the said arbitrary meter. You get your "Light Side/Dark Side points" and some other reward and move along, never looking back. Then, depending on some final moral choice, you get one of several different endings.

One of the few recent examples of a game that I think did the moral choices mechanic right is The Witcher. In The Witcher, your choices aren't so black and white, and your choices often have a consequence further down the road. Example: One of my choices in the first chapter had a consequence many hours later, in about the middle of chapter 2. Likewise, the choices are shades of gray, not outright good or evil as in many similar games. And finally, it doesn't have some meter tracking how good or evil you are.

The upcoming game Alpha Protocol promises a similar approach. The game promises that your actions will have consequences later on, and your choices aren't "good, neutral, or evil." Instead, you pick your "tone" in conversations. The game used three famous agents from pop culture to model these tones: Jason Bourne, James Bond, and Jack Bauer. This means your tone choices are "Professional" (Jason), "Suave" (James), or "Aggressive" (Jack). You aren't good, neutral, or evil.

More games need to take this approach. The "moral choices" game mechanic has a lot of potential. Potential that is often wasted by simplistic "good or evil" ideas and a lack of real consequences for your actions. More games need to shy away from BioWare's typical good or evil approach and look towards The Witcher's shades of gray theme, as well as include consequences for your actions. While we are at it, do away with the arbitrary meter showing me how good or evil I am.

In other words, make it more realistic and less simplistic.
 

JMeganSnow

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Aug 27, 2008
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To be honest, I'd rather play games where you don't have the option to be "evil", they just have many well-characterized versions of "good".

It annoys me that in order to play a "good" character I usually can't play, say, a smartass or a cynic or, sheesh, someone with a quite reasonable expectation of being *paid* for doing *hard work*.

It is bizarre to me that good and evil characters in CRPG's end up doing exactly the same thing. How does this make sense? It also limits your plots to huge, gigantic "save the world" type situations because it'd take something BIG to make a villain care about the situation.

Mass Effect made a very slight venture into this area, but I would have liked to see them go further. I would also like it to be that you get no alignment adjustment until you finish an *entire* quest--why is just *accepting* certain quests a certain alignment? You haven't *done* anything yet!
 

Caliostro

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Jan 23, 2008
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Richard Groovy Pants said:
hem dazon 90 said:
there is no such thing as morals
The Pope begs to politely disagree with you.
The pope is not a reliable or even valid source of information.


Seriously, you expect reliable information from a man who touches little boys and gets his "intel" from hallucinations? Cause if you do, there's a regular CIA under every other bridge and wasteland.

Buuut...Facetious thread derailing aside... The problem with including a more "dynamic" morals system is that for every choice you need to program a different path and consequent ending (or it's all for naught if they all lead to the same end). Although awesome this is something most developers fear like the plague, as just a few different "moral choices" can almost double their work.
 

teh_gunslinger

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. did it better.
Dec 6, 2007
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ThePlasmatizer said:
In what world would blowing a beggar's head off be construed as a good moral choice?
Assassins Creed. Seriously, I normally never kill anyone I don't have to, but the beggars got the blade. Along with the guys who shoved me all the time. Assss!
 

FrankDux

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Aug 5, 2008
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The dudes that shoved totally deserved to die. I hated them.

But mostly, if there's someone that you shouldn't kill, I don't. I rarely killed Little Sisters in Bioshock.
 

OurGloriousLeader

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May 14, 2008
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I'm inclined to agree with the Peter Molyneux answer, one that was pretty well implemented in GTA2 now that I think about it: some sort of universal 1D moral quantifier is simplistic and often leads to breaking immersion. Instead, stats, which have to be used until we get much better engines, should measure different moral ideas of different sub-cultures. Kill helpless innocents, helpless innocents fear you. Kill raiders, raiders hate you.

And it would be impossible for all groups to like you. doing one thing pisses off one group and helps another. And not everyone finds out what you do. Blow of some random guys legs 100 metres below the ground and torture him will lower your Karma, but how does the villager running screaming from your 8 miles away know? Is it the blood splatter up my distantly-smiling face?
 

SenseOfTumour

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Jul 11, 2008
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Hell, there's people out there who think it would be morally fine to wipe out all beggars and homeless people.

Hell, if you've ever seen the UK's Daily Mail newspaper, they seem to think it would be fine to kill everyone who falls into a category that they don't like, for being a threat to their way of life.

1. All non christians
2. Anyone without a full time job
3. Anyone under 16 who isn't learning either piano or clarinet
4. Anyone who didn't pay for their schooling
5. Anyone who might look 'a bit foreign'
6. Anyone who recycles or is anti war
7. Anyone who shops at LIDL or Iceland

And quite a few more too. As I say, morality is a strange one!

(NOTE: I may have slightly exaggerated their views just a little bit, but until they quit with two page 'reports' about 'Killer videogame being marketed to YOUR child' I'll continue to embellish the truth too)

I remember reading a parody of reality TV where one of the Daily Mail's columnists got a computer simulation of the world to rule over, to try to improve the world.

The listing read something like:
'18:00 - Littlejohn's World - Day 4 - Having managed to start enough wars to wipe all human life from the face of the earth, Littlejohn starts trying to get the plantlife to fight each other.'

So yeah, in short, it's a tough thing to project one person's morals onto an audience of many.
 

KrossZer0

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Apr 16, 2008
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Okay, lots of interesting thoughts here, but I'm not going to take the time to quote all of them. Here are my thoughts:

The problem with trying to be "neutral but a little bit evil" or "evil with an occasional spot of good," is that video games ultimately deal with absolutes because they are mathematical computer programs. If there is to be "good" and "evil" in a game, the developer has to put in a quantifiable boundary for where good ends and evil begins. In the end this is going to be determined the developer's opinion of where good and evil align themselves, which in a sense is somewhat arbitrary, and because of this what a player considers "a little evil" may fall more firmly into the developer definition of evil than the player would think. Since each player will have a different moral scale of their own, you can never find a way for all players to play exactly the shade of gray that they would like.

In order to add depth to this system I think the scale needs to be expanded. Instead of good on one end and evil on the other, build a scale that's a little more inspired by, say, the Dungeons and Dragons alignment scale, or more realistically a scale that involves "authoritarian" or "libertarian" or "revolutionary," something that doesn't just ask you "are you good?" or "are you evil?" but also asks you "how?"

So you're good? Are you a benevolent dictator? A freedom fighter? A cop or a vigilante?
Evil? Are you a manipulative politician setting yourself up to become emperor? A corrupt cop? Just a thug, or a sociopath who just want to see society fail?

Plenty of comic book critics have said before that a hero is only as good as the villains he fights. I think the best way to make a player feel the effects of his moral choices in a game is by the enemies he makes. Freedom fighters and revolutionaries are going to be at odds with a player who sets himself as an absolute authority no matter if he is "good" or "evil." Similarly, a player who wants to be a revolutionary is going to be at odds with the ruling authority, whether he is an idealist looking to change the world, or a manipulator looking to usurp power himself. And what happens when a player who wants to fight for freedom comes up against a not so obviously evil dictator?

Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass because I don't understand enough about game design, but if I were at BioWare, or Bethesda, or Lionhead, these are the ideas I would be thinking about.
 

Samoftherocks

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Oct 4, 2008
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Morality in gaming begs the question of whether one would commit evil deeds if there were some kind of long-lasting consequence that wasn't dodged by turning off your system. Sure you opt to murder the innocent because it's a day ending in Y, but even in a game like Fable where if you help enough people out you can go from demon to saint even if you've killed an entire town full of bunnies. Most gamers know it's not cool to run around with a chainsaw in our neighborhood decapitating grannies in real life. The line of morality is drawn at the point of which the game is turned off. Virtual mayhem is VIRTUAL mayhem.