MOVIEBOB you're wrong about the Mass Effect Ending! The art is ours as well as theirs.

[Ren_Li]

You had no part of the creative process, you had no input as to how the game was made or any investment therein.

Not going to get heavily involved in the discussion, other than to say that this is incorrect. Bioware actively sought the opinions and thoughts of fans. The series evolved because of what fans thought. The gameplay mechanics themselves were overwhelming to new players in 1; they were simplified for 2. Most players felt they were TOO simple in 2; so new elements were added in 3, to give more diversity without overwhelming people.
Fans latched on to Garrus and Tali far more than the developers expected. They were made romancable characters BECAUSE OF the fan reaction to them. If it weren't for fan input they would likely never have reached the depth they have.
"Between 2 and 3" DLC- Overlord, LotSB and Arrival in order- were released to "fill the gaps" and continue Shepard's story whilst the fans waited, as a result of fans wanting DLC to do those things.

There are other examples but I'm not going to dissect the entire series, and say what was, and what may have been, a direct impact of Bioware paying attention to the fan base. The fact that they are, and have been, seeking feedback about the series is just that- a fact. The fan base DID have a part on the creative process. They have no ownership, but they had an impact, they provided ideas, and they influenced the evolution of the series.

I will say that Bioware is under no obligation to do anything for the fans, and the fans have no "entitlement" here. But it would be a drastic shift from the relationship they've developed with the fan base if they were to ignore them- and indeed, they HAVEN'T ignored them. They've already said they're going to do something. To me, that clearly says they feel there's holes which need to be addressed. That alone says a lot.

And for the people comparing complaining about this to complaining about hugely famous paintings... NO, it's not the same. You're making it sound as though no art has ever been altered due to the response it's received before. It has. Books and film have done it, most of the time before the media in question ever reaches the masses. But even after the public has experienced it, there are alterations. Cuts, additions, re-shoots, re-prints. It HAPPENS. Video games are a far more interactive medium than a painting in a gallery and needs to be treated as such. Does that mean anything gamers whine over should be altered? No. Does that mean the ending of a series should be altered because the overwhelming majority of the fan base hates it? Not necessarily. However, if a developer is aware that they've released something sub-standard, and don't feel that they've done their best? They should think about it. And I'm not in Bioware's shoes, but they clearly feel like something needs to be done, because they're DOING SOMETHING. Anything more is speculation until more information on the ending DLC is released.

Whew. None of this involves MY opinion on the ending, or what Bioware should do with it, because I don't feel that's relevant. It's also a lot longer than intended, for which I apologise.

 

[Lugbzurg]

I'd like to take this time to go through all this dialogue just point out a few words of wisdom some might have missed out of all this text.
(In which case, I must be a Reaper! Man, my puns are awful...)

"You seem to have a strange definition of art. The viewer can interpret art in whatever way they want, they don't get to control it. And unless it is performance art or an installation they don't get a say in it. YOU played a game with thousands of decisions programmed into the game, you did not decide what those choices were. They are pre-made, you just pick the one you like the most. If a baker lets you pick the color of the cake icing that doesn't mean you helped to make the cake, you just got to pick from what was there."
-Frozengale

"No the art isn't yours. You chose options from a list that Bioware made, and got the consequences that Bioware created.

I don't care about "artistic integrity" or anything like that but Bioware made a product, and they can make it how they wish.

Also, Bioware didn't lie about the endings. They said there were multiple endings, and there were. They never said the endings would be very different from each other."
-sindremaster

"They said that it would have multiple choice endings, and it did, so why are you saying it was false advertisement?

I'm fucking sick of this argument. An observer does not own artistic license to the art they admire. Let me bring this down to your level.

People complaining at Mass Effect 3's ending is like people complaining at fucking Mona Lisa. just because you were disappointed about the fact that her eyebrows weren't at the millimeter resolution you'd hoped for doesn't mean that you harass and pressure Da Vinci into repainting her to live up to your personal expectations.

The ending was written by someone who had clear knowledge on what they were doing and made the right decision for the context. Just grow up and realize that just because user-content games like Spore and LittleBigPlanet doesn't mean you can control every game you like."

The Retake Mass Effect campaign has set back the video gaming industry's pursuit for artistic recognition a good few years."
-TerribleAssassin

I am just so sick about hearing people whining like infants about Mass Effect 3. BioWare created an incredible game. Incredible. Yet, just because less than 1% of the overall experience didn't meet expectations, people feel they're owed something better. It's your own fault for buying a product before you can even confirm weather it's good or not. I prefer to buy my games later on. There are so many older games out there for me to catch up on. I haven't even finished Doom. That way, I can know weather or not the new game is good or not and buy it when it's not new, anymore, and, therefor, cheaper.

What is it that you want? A complimentary BioWare pen?

 

[DEAD34345]

Aside from those who supported that false advertising charge, I think we all know we have no right to a new ending. Being able to make choices in the game doesn't change that.

I don't see what's wrong with asking for a new ending though, which is what most people are doing. I also see nothing wrong with complaining about how truly awful the ending we were given was. We don't have the legal right to a better ending, but we do have the right to pester Bioware as much as we want in order to convince them to give us one. It's a fight many of us are not willing to give up yet (a testament to how great we consider Mass Effect to be, apart from the last few minutes). The extended cut DLC means almost nothing to me. I don't want the terrible, terrible ending explained, I want it replaced. No amount of explanation could change it from being awful, as the nonsensicalness was only one of its many, many problems.

 

[Knobody13]

This is an open letter to MovieBob, and anybody else who still has energy to argue about this

It was just over a week ago that I had finally gotten my hands on Mass Effect 3 after waiting for what felt like an eternity so I could see the final chapter of this epic trilogy. And like many I was gravely disappointed with how it ended. I didn't fill any lawsuits, but to have a series that I would rank as the best I've very seen across any medium be destroyed in the last 10 mins of the game was just terrible.

Now I've seen many arguments for a new ending, but also many counter arguments that us fans have no right to ask for one. And this included MovieBob, of which I am a fan and usually agree with on many an issue. But tonight, I watched an episode of 'The Big Picture' titled 'Mutants and Masses' <http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/5525-Mutants-and-Masses> and felt so puzzled by it that I felt I should say my piece on it (especially considering, and I believe I'm correct in saying this, that he has never played any of the games).

His main argument is that because we are not the creators of the art we have no right but this isn't true. Among all the arguments this one just doesn't seem to be mentioned. We also made that art too.

Unlike any other medium games allow us to BE the protagonist in the story. The story, the world unfolds around us, reacts to us, we are not observers. This is especially true with a series like Mass Effect because unlike a lot of other games the player is given CHOICE. And this is the point. It is this choice that allows us to not only shape our world, but also the story that's being told.

I'm not sure if the Anti-Change ending camp has realised but people refer to Shepard as MY Shepard. This is an important point, and what underpins the experience that Bioware was selling. It was each our own story. Bioware created the universe, but allowed us to choose which path to take and to deal with the consequences of said choices and to carry this over across games. The ending they made does not do this.

Now I'm not asking for a happy ending; that would suck. Personally I think it would go against the tone of the series and a bleak ending like the one given is narratively more interesting. The ending given however has no closure, had blasted holes in it's plot turning it to Swiss cheese, and showed no consequences for our choices. We never got to see the end of OUR story, the one that WE created with Bioware.

Now I have read the news, and know that Bioware are planning an extended version of the ending, without changing it. For me, I hope that it deals with the problems I just mentioned. But what I also hope from this is that those people who say that the fans should stop complaining (maybe in some extreme cases they may have a point), not demand anything, and except the fact that as an art form like any other we have no ownership over it, I hope that they realise what a disservice they do to the medium we all love.

Yes games can be, and is certainly art, but it is also a separate medium, and thus plays by different rules. We shouldn't be stuck behind what appears to be a pre-historic view of what art can be, it was that view could have prevented games from being recognised as such in the Supreme Court. And let's not forget that in other established forms of art there have been changes made post publishing (Blade Runner anyone?).

The passion behind this is justifiable, the series Bioware created is epic, not just for the locations, the gameplay, the characters, but because we invested in this universe like no other. We were the hero and we made the decisions. In this case, shouldn't we be able to see where this brings us? Surely not all in the same place right?

I agree with you lol!

 

[Zen Toombs]

Spoiler

We didn't write the story, we didn't create it.
What we did create was Shepard - and don't anybody try to tell me otherwise.
Bioware presented us with Options with which we wrote our Shepard, but each Shepard was unique, and until ME3 Bioware left Shepard as mostly a blank slate.
We didn't write the story. Bioware did that. They wrote the story, and made the world. We created Shepard though. They wrote what he says, and gave us the option to choose, but Shepard was never Bioware's character - until ME3. Its why a lot of people are hurt at the ending, and the auto dialogue, and the dreams. That isn't the Shepard we forged throughout ME1 and ME2, that's Bioware's vision of Shepard - generally quite different from my own.

I think Shamus Young said it right: We are the editors of ME. We don't write the story, we don't create the world. We take what is offered to us by those that do, and choose which one is the right one. Generally they gave us a reasonable array of options to choose from. The ME3 ending didn't.

Toombs approves +4

Well written, and extremely interesting.

I'm tired of Mass Effect discussions. We should instead focus on Wasteland 2. It's only got 8 days left to donate =O

I concur with tiring of the Mass Effect talk, and I'm someone who loves the series. Also, thanks for the Wasteland reminder, I need to give them my money.

Sorry to have to tell you this but...

Halarious video. Although I will say that it feels more appropriate as a commentary on the Mass Effect ending than how you used it. Still, great video that I am currently stealing.

-OP-

Interesting view, it probably should have been put into one of the several threads involving MovieBob. I do appreciate what you've said, but I also don't feel that it will have any sort of effect on Moviebob. He as OPINIONS, in case you didn't know.

 

[Zen Toombs]

-OP-

I agree with you lol!

Hey, you're not entirely new here but you have a low post count, so I'd like to welcome you to the Escapist. Just so you know, this would probably count as a "low content post" as all you're saying is that you agree with the op. It is usually better to add something or comment on something rather than just saying "hey, this sounds about right".

Also, please snip or spoiler long posts. It makes things easier to read and makes the loading times go down.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Wow, really some hostile people out there. I was hoping for some interesting debate on this subject, guess I'm not going to get that.

You could have found that debate in one of the DOZENS of topics EXACTLY like this one.
Don't blame them for your ignorance. This topic is sorely overdone.

No it's not. It's simply misunderstood, misinterpreted, and abused by lesser people. *snip* That is dangerous thinking that removes the borders of what is art, and destroys the very concept of art itself.

It's dangerous thinking to wield terms like "lesser people" as an argument, period.

 

[thebighead01]

Right, so got some interesting responses, sorry if I don't reply to all of them, don't really have the time right now, but hopefully I will get back to those who I've missed.

Congratulations with your opinion and all, but there was ZERO reason to make a new thread about it. Your opinion brings nothing new to the table, it could aswell be a post in the already well established Moviebob ME3 thread.
Why isnt this locked?

I did explain why but guess you didn't read it. I've read the other threads but felt that the argument got overshadowed by people wanting a happier ending and the like. There didn't seem to be any look into the source of this discontent, such as the personalisation effect of the games that was negated by the ending, and how this affects our perceptions of art, of games as art, and the relationship between the audience and artist. And I didn't want that being swamped in the hundreds of other posts. Hope that answered your question.

That is a terrible reason, tbh. You are basically saying that you feel your opinion is more important than others, and wanted a special place to put it, so people would read it.

Yes. I don't understand your point.

Wow, really some hostile people out there. I was hoping for some interesting debate on this subject, guess I'm not going to get that.

But firstly, just lol. You lot must be the type of consumers corporations get wet dreams over. Me, I'm of the mind that if you work hard for your money, and use said money for a product or service, and don't get what was promised or delivered you have the right to complain and demand for a refund or what was promised. Multiple endings was promised, and was not delivered. Simple as that. If you're of the mind that you should never complain when you don't get what you paid for, well, you have my sympathies. Guess you must have been screwed many a time to make you this cynical.

For someone who seems peeved about hostility, you seem quite hostile yourself. They did give multiple endings, the differences may be aesthetic, but they are different. They delivered on the promise. We're aren't being cynical, we are being realistic, what was promised was delivered (I still have yet to see the PROMISES that people keep pointing out... but whatever) the ending wasn't great, you have a right to say that. But stop saying a corporation allegedly promised you something and didn't deliver when they clearly did.

Hostile? Me? Don't think I have been even once. Please find one quote where I have been. No idea where you got that.

And please, Bioware is rated as one of the best current develops of games, they have been anything but deceitful on such a monumental level. The promise was multiple endings BASED on our choices. I mean, that's the kind of dick move that Activision or EA would...oh. Maybe EA pushed for that rubbish ending, try to leave things a little open so they could continue the series. If that's the case Bioware's artistic integrity is already compremised, so if anything the fan are helping to restore that by asking for an ending we all know Bioware to be capable of. Just a little thought I guess

Oh and proof. . Enjoy.

LastGreatBlasphemer, you failed to understand my point. What Bioware was selling was an experience that was and became personalised. This is what was promised as wasn't delivered. Instead we got a 'one size fits all' ending. We have a right to complain.

See your rigid definition of art is the same definition that would have relegated games to being just that. The concept and definition of art of is constantly in flux. Games allow a change in that definition, and Bioware seems to realise that. They are offering an ending that I hope will offer closure. That's all that's really being asked for.

No you have a right to complain that you did not like the ending. You were NOT promised that it would be a personalized experience that you would enjoy. NO COMPANY WOULD PROMISE THIS. You keep mentioning these promises. Where are they? There may be hype, but hype is not a promise. There may be people talking at E3 or PAX or something that say they HOPE that the final installment will meet expectations. But no company would promise these things. Maybe individuals promised to make it the best they can, but one individual promising does not mean the team follows through.

You seem to have a strange definition of art. The viewer can interpret art in whatever way they want, they don't get to control it. And unless it is performance art or an installation they don't get a say in it. YOU played a game with thousands of decisions programmed into the game, you did not decide what those choices were. They are pre-made, you just pick the one you like the most. If a baker lets you pick the color of the cake icing that doesn't mean you helped to make the cake, you just got to pick from what was there. [/quote]

*Sigh* DrVornoff, you also failed to understand the point I was trying to make. We are not asking for director's credit. As has been pointed out fan input has shaped development of the game so our input is already there. Also, again, let me repeat this to be as clear as possible, all that is needed is CLOSURE. The ending didn't offer that. It created more questions than answers, and ultimate failed to deliver on the very game mechanic it had built its franchise on, choice and consequences. This is what we though we bought, but we didn't get.

YOU DID GET CHOICE AND CONSEQUENCE! Through out the whole game you made choices on pre-programmed decisions. That is choice. Then your choice means pre-programmed consequences happen within the context of the universe. They all merge into one finale that is the same no matter what, but there is still choice and consequence. And yes fan input has helped Bioware decide what to change but saying, "This sucks, this is cool" does not mean that you helped to make the game. You are essentially the critic, you don't make something, you just critique it. If the developers take this input and change the next game based on your critique this does not mean you made the decisions to change it.

In any case Bioware don't seem to agree with you lot. I feel that they are and will strike a balance between holding on to their creative integrity while offering what is most important. You know what it is. Say it with me now. Yes it's CLOSURE. So all your rage against this isn't really going to go to take you anywhere. Isn't it hypocritical to complain about people who complain, since you believe people shouldn't ever complain since it won't or shouldn't change anything? Hope that doesn't go over your heads.

Bioware do seem to agree. They aren't changing the ending. They are expanding on it. You didn't change anything. They are just offering you more in an attempt to appease you. We aren't saying you shouldn't complain, we're saying you are complaining for the wrong reasons. You are complaining about imagined promises, imagined input, and imagined slights. They told you they would give you a game, you got a game. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you didn't get what they said you would.

Once when I worked in a sandwich shop I had a guy look at the menu, and give me his order. We gave him his sandwich and he later came back saying it wasn't right. I asked him if all the ingredients that were supposed to be there were there, he said yes. I asked him if we made it right, he said yes. I asked him what was wrong then and he said, "I didn't like how it tasted." He then went on saying we owe him another sandwich because he didn't like the sandwich that he ordered. We made the sandwich exactly as we said we would with exactly what we said we would make it with, but he complained that that wasn't right because he didn't enjoy it. You are like that annoying guy, just because you didn't like what you got you feel entitled to something more.

Basically in response to all of that just check the link. Promises were broken, choices and consequences were to be there right up and including the ending, this was not done. Promises made by leads, the people who created it, not any low level staff or PR people who know nothing of the game. You asked for proof.

No the art isn't yours. You chose options from a list that Bioware made, and got the consequences that Bioware created.

I don't care about "artistic integrity" or anything like that but Bioware made a product, and they can make it how they wish.

Also, Bioware didn't lie about the endings. They said there were multiple endings, and there were. They never said the endings would be very different from each other.

Yea, they did. Sorry, again check the link above. You know I'll just give it here. Multiple endings, very different from each other. Those very words were used. I have to wonder if any of you lot read the interviews or press releases before replying to threads like these. :/

Well I'm not, so....

Then what are you doing?

Discussing why MovieBob was wrong and because of the approach that Bioware took in creating the game created a sense of personalisation that perhaps should shift our perceptions of the relationship between audience and artist and how this affects our definition of art and thus how a change in the ending is perfectly possible because of that sense of personalistion gives ownship to your Shepard and...Christ haven't I said this all already?

No, but you didn't acknowledge it either. This is, I believe, above all else where the problem lies. As I've said before the game offered a personalised experience that genuinely created a personal connection with the characters and the peoples in that world. This was ignored in the creation of the ending that helped to create this situation.

And this means you are entitled to a new ending how?

DrVornoff, I have never once used the word entitled.

And what point is that? You're complaining about people complaining. Just swearing doesn't disprove this. Come on your better than that aren't you?

I am neither raging nor complaining. If I was pissed, you would know it. The point is that having played the game and emotionally invested yourself in it does not give you the authority to demand retcons and new endings because you weren't satisfied with the product. It does not give you a say in the creative direction. It does not give you a say in the writing. You created nothing but the implicit experiences in your own mind, same as we all do when reading novels, watching movies, or listening to music. Sometimes things just screw up. Express your disappointment and walk away a little older and wiser.

Again you fail to understand the implicit change in the nature of the relationship between audience and artist that Bioware has created. If I haven't already I shall point you to FFHAuthor. Look for his posts, they explain it better than I ever could. Well anyway I hope you give it some thought.

snip

They said that it would have multiple choice endings, and it did, so why are you saying it was false advertisement?

I'm fucking sick of this argument. An observer does not own artistic license to the art they admire. Let me bring this down to your level.

People complaining at Mass Effect 3's ending is like people complaining at fucking Mona Lisa. just because you were disappointed about the fact that her eyebrows weren't at the millimeter resolution you'd hoped for doesn't mean that you harass and pressure Da Vinci into repainting her to live up to your personal expectations.

The ending was written by someone who had clear knowledge on what they were doing and made the right decision for the context. Just grow up and realize that just because user-content games like Spore and LittleBigPlanet doesn't mean you can control every game you like.

The Retake Mass Effect campaign has set back the video gaming industry's pursuit for artistic recognition a good few years.

Again, rigid definition of art. If you continue to measure games as art along the lines of books or Art pieces than it can't become art in its own right. It's like how games try to be more like movies to be more like art. Then they're not games and more they're movies. Please read previous posts. (Sorry if my response is a bit short, but I feel this point has already been addressed).

 

[Dr Jones]

Right, so got some interesting responses, sorry if I don't reply to all of them, don't really have the time right now, but hopefully I will get back to those who I've missed.

Congratulations with your opinion and all, but there was ZERO reason to make a new thread about it. Your opinion brings nothing new to the table, it could aswell be a post in the already well established Moviebob ME3 thread.
Why isnt this locked?

I did explain why but guess you didn't read it. I've read the other threads but felt that the argument got overshadowed by people wanting a happier ending and the like. There didn't seem to be any look into the source of this discontent, such as the personalisation effect of the games that was negated by the ending, and how this affects our perceptions of art, of games as art, and the relationship between the audience and artist. And I didn't want that being swamped in the hundreds of other posts. Hope that answered your question.

That is a terrible reason, tbh. You are basically saying that you feel your opinion is more important than others, and wanted a special place to put it, so people would read it.

Yes. I don't understand your point.

You act as if your opinion deserves a thread, as if your opinion is something special, and it deserves an audience more than other people's opinions, which is a bit arrogant.
Every person who has made another Mass Effect 3 ending thread, is just another schmuck like you, who thinks their opinion is all-high and mighty, whereas others are just common rubble saying "Bioware bad!", whereas your opinion is simply so immaculate that it deserves it's own thread.
It's arrogant, what you are doing.

 

[Knobody13]

-OP-

I agree with you lol!

Hey, you're not entirely new here but you have a low post count, so I'd like to welcome you to the Escapist. Just so you know, this would probably count as a "low content post" as all you're saying is that you agree with the op. It is usually better to add something or comment on something rather than just saying "hey, this sounds about right".

Also, please snip or spoiler long posts. It makes things easier to read and makes the loading times go down.

I was on my way out the door at the time; I am sorry. I really just wanted the OP to know that everyone reading the thread didn't hate him. I really have nothing new or insightful to add to his argument. I also don't feel like arguing with the irrational idiots in this post. Discussions about what is or isn't art are rarely productive. The only thing that really matters is freedom of speech and the right to protect it in all of its forms. Bioware has the right to say whatever they want in the form of their game, and we have the right to tell them what they say is crap. This NEEDS to be protected. However when Bioware sells its art, it becomes a product. Once it becomes a product, it is subject to all of the laws that apply to products. Considering that the vast majority of people buy games before they come out until about 2 weeks after its release, it is safe to say that most consumers are buying the product on faith alone. Faith that what they have been shown and told about the game is in fact reflected in the entire product. I do not have extensive legal knowledge, so I will not weigh in on the people suing Bioware. I will, however, say that I feel cheated as both a consumer and a fan.

Thank you for notifying me of substantively lacking post. I hope this is more to your liking. And maybe, just maybe, the opinionated hotheads will get a kick out of telling me that what I said above is wrong. I am always happy to contribute to rage fueled discourse. ^_^

 

[Zen Toombs]

-snip- Hey, you might want to watch that. Tis a low-content post.
-snip-

I was on my way out the door at the time; I am sorry.

No worries, I just wanted to let you know. I personally don't mind, but rules are rules, and I wanted to make sure you didn't get a warning for it.

Spoiler: Rest of post

I really just wanted the OP to know that everyone reading the thread didn't hate him. I really have nothing new or insightful to add to his argument. I also don't feel like arguing with the irrational idiots in this post. Discussions about what is or isn't art are rarely productive. The only thing that really matters is freedom of speech and the right to protect it in all of its forms. Bioware has the right to say whatever they want in the form of their game, and we have the right to tell them what they say is crap. This NEEDS to be protected. However when Bioware sells its art, it becomes a product. Once it becomes a product, it is subject to all of the laws that apply to products. Considering that the vast majority of people buy games before they come out until about 2 weeks after its release, it is safe to say that most consumers are buying the product on faith alone. Faith that what they have been shown and told about the game is in fact reflected in the entire product. I do not have extensive legal knowledge, so I will not weigh in on the people suing Bioware. I will, however, say that I feel cheated as both a consumer and a fan.

Thank you for notifying me of substantively lacking post. I hope this is more to your liking. And maybe, just maybe, the opinionated hotheads will get a kick out of telling me that what I said above is wrong. I am always happy to contribute to rage fueled discourse.

Well said on all accounts. Thankye kindly for your thoughts!

^_^

Wait, I'm not the only one who uses that? Fantastic!

 

[Krion_Vark]

Also, again, let me repeat this to be as clear as possible, all that is needed is CLOSURE. The ending didn't offer that. It created more questions than answers, and ultimate failed to deliver on the very game mechanic it had built its franchise on, choice and consequences.

Choice and Consequence of the ending.
Blue: Choice: Save everything take control of the reapers. Consequence: End the cycles.
Red: Choice: Kill ALL synthetics. Consequence: EDI and the Geth both die.
Green: Choice: Synthesize synthetics with organics. Consequence: Everyone becomes a cyborg.

I think you missed the point of the ending.

No really though I thought the ending was well done minus it providing closure.

 

[thebighead01]

Right, so got some interesting responses, sorry if I don't reply to all of them, don't really have the time right now, but hopefully I will get back to those who I've missed.

Congratulations with your opinion and all, but there was ZERO reason to make a new thread about it. Your opinion brings nothing new to the table, it could aswell be a post in the already well established Moviebob ME3 thread.
Why isnt this locked?

I did explain why but guess you didn't read it. I've read the other threads but felt that the argument got overshadowed by people wanting a happier ending and the like. There didn't seem to be any look into the source of this discontent, such as the personalisation effect of the games that was negated by the ending, and how this affects our perceptions of art, of games as art, and the relationship between the audience and artist. And I didn't want that being swamped in the hundreds of other posts. Hope that answered your question.

That is a terrible reason, tbh. You are basically saying that you feel your opinion is more important than others, and wanted a special place to put it, so people would read it.

Yes. I don't understand your point.

You act as if your opinion deserves a thread, as if your opinion is something special, and it deserves an audience more than other people's opinions, which is a bit arrogant.
Every person who has made another Mass Effect 3 ending thread, is just another schmuck like you, who thinks their opinion is all-high and mighty, whereas others are just common rubble saying "Bioware bad!", whereas your opinion is simply so immaculate that it deserves it's own thread.
It's arrogant, what you are doing.

Personal attacks like 'schmuck' aren't very becoming, and does go to show that maybe some opinions are more important than others after all. And so what if I wanted to make my own thread. I'm pretty happy with it. I got say my piece and I've received more replies for it than I know what to do with. I mean, you're replying to them too aren't you? I still don't see what your point is. If no one ever thought they point was important they would never say anything.

 

[thebighead01]

Also, again, let me repeat this to be as clear as possible, all that is needed is CLOSURE. The ending didn't offer that. It created more questions than answers, and ultimate failed to deliver on the very game mechanic it had built its franchise on, choice and consequences.

Choice and Consequence of the ending.
Blue: Choice: Save everything take control of the reapers. Consequence: End the cycles.
Red: Choice: Kill ALL synthetics. Consequence: EDI and the Geth both die.
Green: Choice: Synthesize synthetics with organics. Consequence: Everyone becomes a cyborg.

I think you missed the point of the ending.

No really though I thought the ending was well done minus it providing closure.

No, these endings would have been reached regardless of any previous choice made. That's the point. You killed Wrex in the first game: Red, blue or green ending, you saved him: red, blue or green ending. No matter what you did everyone will end up in the same place.

And as for the consequences of said endings: the plot holes in the ending create a lack of closure (such as how everyone made it out with the Normandy) not only conflict with the the 'choice' made at the end, and coupled with what I said above only negate any sense of choice and consequence that the series was based on.

In any case I'm glad you liked the ending, and that you took something good out of it. Personally I'm not against the concept behind the ending, nor the bleakness of it. It's the execution of it that I hate. For a series that was so loving crafted it feels like they spent as long to make the ending as it took to play through it.

 

[Frozengale]

Hostile? Me? Don't think I have been even once. Please find one quote where I have been. No idea where you got that.

And please, Bioware is rated as one of the best current develops of games, they have been anything but deceitful on such a monumental level. The promise was multiple endings BASED on our choices. I mean, that's the kind of dick move that Activision or EA would...oh. Maybe EA pushed for that rubbish ending, try to leave things a little open so they could continue the series. If that's the case Bioware's artistic integrity is already compremised, so if anything the fan are helping to restore that by asking for an ending we all know Bioware to be capable of. Just a little thought I guess

You are hostile by flinging insults at people.

But firstly, just lol. You lot must be the type of consumers corporations get wet dreams over.

That is hostile, no two ways about it.

Oh and proof. . Enjoy.


Basically in response to all of that just check the link. Promises were broken, choices and consequences were to be there right up and including the ending, this was not done. You asked for proof.

They promised multiple endings they gave multiple endings. They all suck, the difference is mainly aesthetic, but promises were kept. Just because YOU don't like how it turned out doesn't mean they didn't stick with their promises. If Bioware is compromised then so be it, but don't imagine yourself as some crusader helping to right wrongs. Bioware would just switch from being compromised by a corporation to being compromised by the fans. Neither is better in my opinion because both of them means they aren't doing what they want to do. In fact I would say fans are worse because at least if they bow to EA it is for money reasons, fans will be pissy no matter what though.

 

[Knobody13]

OP

IF anyone cares this is my opinion from my own thread on the subject.

Does anyone else feel like the critic responses to the ME3 Ending debacle seem a little out of touch? Every critic has, to some extent, said that we should respect Bioware's ending. They said we have unreal expectations and nothing could have appeased us. I don't think that's true, and I don't think that's fair. Yes, most of these arguments are right in THEORY; a writer should not have to change their art to conform to audience expectations. Let me be 100 percent clear. I believe that, but what if you offered to buy an artists next piece, before having seen or heard it. You are a big fan of their art. The artist is a beautiful painter and has always delivered stunningly detailed, imaginative, color rich paintings; you see no risk in buying the next one. The artist even shows you a preview of the next painting, to get your mouth watering. He has only finished the top half of the painting, so far, but it looks great. Then he says its done, and he mails you the finished product. You open it up and the bottom half, of the painting is a bunch of stick figures drawn in crayon. The top half that you were shown, is still there. You like the top half; you just wish it was finished. Why is the bottom half filled with stick figures? They have no relation to the rest of the painting, and none of the artists other work was like this?

I feel like none of the critics on the site, understand this. Its not that the artists decided to go in a risky new direction that the masses aren't ready for. Bioware didn't finish their game. They half @$$ed it and used an ending that had no continuity with the rest of the story. It is textbook Deus Ex Machina(literally). Do i think fans are whiny and over entitled? Yes. Do i think Bioware has a legal obligation to change the ending? No. Would I like then to be accountable for their bull$#1t? yes.

 

[thebighead01]

EDIT: Apologies, I had to split the original post in two, so sorry if you get a message that you're being quoted again. Some problem with quoting or something.

However, unless you are actually part of the team that wrote ME3's story, you have absolutely ZERO say in the direction that they took the game.

If you think the ending was shit, then think it's shit. There's nothing wrong with that.
If you think it deserved better, then think it deserved better. There's nothing wrong with that.
If you think you're entitled to have them rewrite it, then you're Wrong.

By purchasing the game, you only got the right to play the game they made. Nothing more.

Pretty much this. I like so many others wasn't satisfied with the ending, but that's not my choice to make. I was presented with 3 options, I chose one and got the ending that came with it. I'm ok with that. The last 10 minutes of the game certainly left a sour taste in my mouth, but the hours and hours from ME1 to 3 leading up to those 10 minutes are among my favorites in all of gaming.

It's been said, and honestly any post after the one I quoted are pointless. You can disagree with MovieBob if you want, but to say the observers of art have any say over its content is incorrect.

Thanks Bomberman4000, I actually appreciate where this argument is coming from even if I don't agree with it . Just glad you're reasonable about it. I don't agree with the notion that 'it's the journey not the destination that's important', I simply ask why both can't be equally important.

I have to question why people are still arguing over this. They are coming out with a FREE dlc that claims to explain in more detail about what happened. They can't go back in time and fix this problem. They could not for see the negative impact this would have on the fanbase. But to give you credit you bring up some decent point, but the guy who mentioned we just lead the story we do not make it.

You make some fair points Elfgore. You're probably right in thinking that Bioware would have never anticipated this level of rage, but I'm sure they must have anticipated some response right? In any case I am happy with the announcement. Crappy ending or not all people really needed was closure and I hope they deliver on that. After that well, if they do decide to create proper, multiple endings than I say why not. Games aren't under the same restrictions as books for example.

FFHAuthor...I feel I should get back to you in a separate post because quite frankly the points that you've made are really thought provoking, and I believe eloquently underpins this situation and deserves serious consideration on my part. Although MW3 better than ME3? We have to talk mate

I've very recently come to the conclusion that Video Games as an art form need to be addressed much differently than other forms of art simply because the way a player experiences a game influences what the game means to the player. Art is the highest form of communication, a form of communication that is used when all other forms of communication are incapable of doing so, but when we call games art we define them based upon other mediums. Game Journalists march to the drumbeat of 'it's art!' but they don't say WHY it's art, and they only call games they LIKE art.

I've never heard a reviewer call Modern Warfare 3 art. But I've heard a lot of them call Mass Effect 3 art. Why? What's the difference? They both tell a story. They both invest you in characters. They both have you go through an arch and suffer and grow. They both have you interacting with a world they've crafted. The story you experience is experienced piecemeal, you don't get massive exposition, you can't look at the scope of the wider war, you don't get long explanations of why you're doing what you're doing, your a soldier, a competent, elite soldier, but a soldier none the less. You're doing what you're told, following orders, following another character's lead.

No one complained about the Modern Warfare 3 ending, even though it IS a mechanic shift, going from FPS battle to a QTE in the final moments. But it suits the story, you've been fighting this man for three games, as multiple characters in multiple places, you've survived and hunted him at the expense of all things, it's personal, and in the end, you're in a First Person QTE, looking through Price's eyes as you're finally killing him. It's personal, it feels personal by now, he's killed your friends, he's killed your allies, he's started wars that have rocked your homeland, you WANT him dead.

Even Gears of War 3's story could be considered superior to Mass Effect 3 because the narrative and the mechanics are working in unison and not against each other. Throughout the game you see Marcus as being a soldier, a fighter, a warrior. He's not a genius, he's not a scientist, he's not a complicated man, he's been fighting a war. He isn't coming up with plans or strategies or working on wonder weapons to defeat the Locust, he's following orders. You the player are given orders, and you follow them, that's the game mechanics, go here, kill that, activate this, kill those things, defeat that. It's a mechanic that fills the game nicely, the points of player choice aren't massive earth shattering decisions, instead they're simple tactical choices that change gameplay and a firefight, not the course of the war.

Mass Effect 3 had shooting mechanics, but it also had conversation mechanics. Conversation mechanics that made up a large portion of the game and that nearly always included the ability to take radically different steps in conversations, you can verbally argue with that reporter on the Citadel who keeps trying to interview you, you can submit to her questions and reason with her, or you can punch her in the face, in three different games you can interact with her in vastly different ways with vastly different outcomes. You can avoid boss battles through conversation, you can face intractable problems and resolve them with conversation, yet the ending has you faced with a situation where your choices resolve in much the same way based upon information that you cannot refute, argue against, or examine further, you are given points to base your choice on, and that's all.

IF we demand games be called art then we need to find something that exists in all games to call it art and we need to acknowledge and focus on that thing. And that thing is Mechanics, and mechanics will change a story if they don't work together.

Yet again FFHAuthor, you make some great points. Don't agree with the notion that for games to be called art that there has to be art in all games. There are many movies can be art, but not all movies ARE art.

I think that the main difference between MW and ME is it's approach to storytelling within and without it's own medium. The story telling in MW is very good for the most part (personally I think that ME1 or CoD4 or whatever was the best in this regard, I mean those first 10 mins, just wow) however it doesn't use the medium it's in to tell that story to the same effect as with ME.

See while both strive for a cinematic feel ME succeeded in using the power of immersion that is so evident in gaming. See your avatar in ME is created by the user. You are able to move your avatar around the galaxy when you want to, and talk and interact with people when you want to. This in contrast to MW, the avatar you play as just is. He is an observe, like any watching a movie or reading a book. You are able to interact with the world, but it's on a limited plain i.e. you move from A to B and kill anything that moves (sorry that sounds like a dig, I'm actually a big fan of the series ) Personally I have always believe in the power of games to not only tell a story much better than other mediums but to also immerse in those worlds a lot better too and that's what Bioware was able to accomplish.

I was going to post a response telling the OP why he's wrong and should be punched, but it seems everyone else in this thread has already done that.

Should be punched? Really? Is that all you want to do to me

I smell a troll. All this guy is doing i responding to comments in order to piss people off and disregard their opinion just cause he disagrees, people just need to stop commenting cause its clear the OP just gets off on this attention.

It's called a debate genius. Person A makes one point, person B responds, than person a responses back. This is the basis of all debate, politics...I mean seriously?

I am just so sick about hearing people whining like infants about Mass Effect 3. BioWare created an incredible game. Incredible. Yet, just because less than 1% of the overall experience didn't meet expectations, people feel they're owed something better. It's your own fault for buying a product before you can even confirm weather it's good or not. I prefer to buy my games later on. There are so many older games out there for me to catch up on. I haven't even finished Doom. That way, I can know weather or not the new game is good or not and buy it when it's not new, anymore, and, therefor, cheaper.

What is it that you want? A complimentary BioWare pen?

Lugbzurg...I would love a pen from Bioware, maybe with the N7 logo on it. But I digress. Point has been made before that you can't find out the ending of the game without buying it first, and if you're going out to find out the ending before buying if then what's the point of even following the story. Makes no sense. And while yes it is just 1% of the game, hell of the entire series that 1% isn't somewhere in the middle where it can be forgotten. It was at the most crucial part of the game. The end. Not only the end of one game, but the end of an entire trilogy, so where there is supposed to be some payoff, there wasn't. So it's an important 1%.

I agree with you lol!

Thanks Knobody13 that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me on this thread ^^

-OP-

Interesting view, it probably should have been put into one of the several threads involving MovieBob. I do appreciate what you've said, but I also don't feel that it will have any sort of effect on Moviebob. He as OPINIONS, in case you didn't know.

So just because you can't change someone's mind you should never speak out? That is a dangerous way of think mate. I know he probably wouldn't read it, or even care what I have to say, I just wanted to say it that's all.

And we already live in a sad and shitty world where dubstep creators get to call themselves artists.

And you say your definition of art isn't rigid. LastGreatBlasphemer, shame on you. Dubstep are eternal beacons of great music and thus art. I am of course joking, never listen to their crap, but I don't dismiss the notion that they may be considered art. I don't think that they are but this is the problem with art, it's subjective nature. This subjective nature does allow for a change in what art can be. Hence why games are now recognised as such. You seem to gloss over this point. Whether you like it or not it does change.

Wow, really some hostile people out there. I was hoping for some interesting debate on this subject, guess I'm not going to get that.

You could have found that debate in one of the DOZENS of topics EXACTLY like this one.
Don't blame them for your ignorance. This topic is sorely overdone.

Thanks for proving my point Atmos Duality. Appreciate it darling