MovieBob's thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy
- Thread starter Sentox6
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Not crazy at all. I'm in the same boat as people who say that video games are art, I've argued Bob's side on that issue previously. I'm experiencing a little bit of cognitive dissonance between "games as art" and "making a consumer demand" regarding asking them to change it, but I'm mostly able to resolve it with the following rationale:DustyDrB said:
1. I recognize that AAA title video games are corporate art, made for profit.
2. I recognize that as art, video games are often modified via updates, DLC and expansion packs, purely on the basis of profit and not on the basis of artistic license or expression.
3. I recognize that major triple A titles are made for entertainment purposes, not artistic statements.
4. I recognize that the interactive nature of video games, especially roll playing, choose your ending games, involve a different relationship between the artists who made the game and the players who enjoy them.
The thing is that a big, AAA game title is less like an artistic movie (we'll say, War Horse) and more like a summer block buster (Transformers: Dark of the Moon). Once you realize that ME3 is less like Citizen Kane and more like Avatar, it takes a lot of the piss out of Bob's anger.
Anway, Bob is being ridiculous if he is trying to seriously say we were set back 10 years. We've had extremely artistic games come out recently (I'm thinking of Journey recently, Limbo earlier, Minecraft maybe (if you want to talk about games made by "auteurs"). One game isn't going to set the medium back, and regardless.
Honestly, lets say this:
George Lucas announces tomorrow that given all of the fan backlash against the Prequels, he is releasing a remake of the prequels, where he's vetted the top talent in the field to assist in writing and directing the new version of the prequels so that they do a better job of living up to the original saga.
Would anyone seriously claim that films are no longer art? Who would not be happy? Who'd rather have the prequels as they are because they're "art?"
George Lucas announces tomorrow that given all of the fan backlash against the Prequels, he is releasing a remake of the prequels, where he's vetted the top talent in the field to assist in writing and directing the new version of the prequels so that they do a better job of living up to the original saga.
Would anyone seriously claim that films are no longer art? Who would not be happy? Who'd rather have the prequels as they are because they're "art?"
Cryo84R said:
Sorry, last post, but these are all seperate thoughts and they'd create an infinite wall of text if I posted them as one thing:BloatedGuppy said:
You're right! If we're going to let the endings stand as "artistic expression" then we have to also acknowledge that as art the end of ME3 is objectively terrible. It plays out like the ME3 writing team went to TVtropes.org and ordered the Pu-Pu Platter of cliche plot devices, then put the amalgamation in the microwave for half the recommend time and served it to us half frozen.
I can understand where he's coming from. Every week he gets barated for having differing opinions, stating opinions in undesirable ways, or the story segments in his game overthinker blog. When you go through that it is hard to not come away with the idea that fanboys are just whiners that expect every piece of entertainment to be tailor made to them and thus should be ignored in the name of the artist's vision.
That said, the idea of seperation of art and commerce has always been an aggogant assumption that by tailoring anything to the audience, you can't call it art anymore. It's a holdover from the idealistic days of creative people doing creative things to push new ideas and bring joy to the world, instead of people that found a career path where creativity can yield a paycheck. Face it, in his main medium of film, there is a LOT of shilling from brockbusters after big bucks to Oscar bait to secure noteriaty. Ideally both can be acheived (good in an artistic sense, while playing to the crowd to be financialy viable.)
How much this is damaging is questionable. It's hardly a new phenomonon. Series as old as Sherlock Holmes and the Oz books had influences of fan demand (extending both beyond the wishes of the authors.) As this is the latest tangent we've gone off on, I don't know how damaging it can be as something is bound to set us off every couple of months or so on some entitled bitchfest, and in all honesty, could someone outside looking in not sympathize with hating a shitty ending from a film, book or TV show?
That said, the idea of seperation of art and commerce has always been an aggogant assumption that by tailoring anything to the audience, you can't call it art anymore. It's a holdover from the idealistic days of creative people doing creative things to push new ideas and bring joy to the world, instead of people that found a career path where creativity can yield a paycheck. Face it, in his main medium of film, there is a LOT of shilling from brockbusters after big bucks to Oscar bait to secure noteriaty. Ideally both can be acheived (good in an artistic sense, while playing to the crowd to be financialy viable.)
How much this is damaging is questionable. It's hardly a new phenomonon. Series as old as Sherlock Holmes and the Oz books had influences of fan demand (extending both beyond the wishes of the authors.) As this is the latest tangent we've gone off on, I don't know how damaging it can be as something is bound to set us off every couple of months or so on some entitled bitchfest, and in all honesty, could someone outside looking in not sympathize with hating a shitty ending from a film, book or TV show?
Anyone know how I can get in touch with Moviebob directly? I would like to borrow his time machine and need to know how much it would cost to have it shipped to where I live. I would ask for his crystal ball but I can't trust it would make it through the shipping intact and I'm sure he'd hate to be without it.
Seriously though, Bioware hasn't "caved" to anything and we have no idea what the future plans for ME3 are. If you actually read the Bioware statement, it doesn't say anything about them changing anything. It says they are considering the fan commentary and have plans to extend the game with DLC.. you know, the sort of plans they probably already basically had in place before the game finished initial development. A day ago everyone was spinning the Bioware statement as nothing but empty PR speak. Now it's supposedly a blank page tossed to the fanbase such that the players will be rewriting the entire series. Could we please decide exactly what it is we're all up in arms over.. or is it really the need to be butthurt that's driving all of this. (Yeah, it's the latter. I know)
Maybe they will actually honestly change things. Maybe they will *gasp* do so because, in retrospect, they feel some of what the fans have said is right. Why would that be so wrong? Why would that be "caving" to fan demands? Last time I checked we were living in an age where art can be changed once it's been let out into the wild, and were talking about a medium driven by, at it's base level, a mix pf developer intent and player interaction.
Seriously though, Bioware hasn't "caved" to anything and we have no idea what the future plans for ME3 are. If you actually read the Bioware statement, it doesn't say anything about them changing anything. It says they are considering the fan commentary and have plans to extend the game with DLC.. you know, the sort of plans they probably already basically had in place before the game finished initial development. A day ago everyone was spinning the Bioware statement as nothing but empty PR speak. Now it's supposedly a blank page tossed to the fanbase such that the players will be rewriting the entire series. Could we please decide exactly what it is we're all up in arms over.. or is it really the need to be butthurt that's driving all of this. (Yeah, it's the latter. I know)
Maybe they will actually honestly change things. Maybe they will *gasp* do so because, in retrospect, they feel some of what the fans have said is right. Why would that be so wrong? Why would that be "caving" to fan demands? Last time I checked we were living in an age where art can be changed once it's been let out into the wild, and were talking about a medium driven by, at it's base level, a mix pf developer intent and player interaction.
What about the game that the people at bioware made and the changes EA probably went through and said nope change that. Why is it we the people can't change something we don't like but the people who own the game company can? shut up I know the money.
So if it come's to the point where we paid the money fr the product in some small part we own the game, if enough of us say we want a change then what's wrong with that. Again yes I know we don't own any part of the game but in a small way we do.
So if it come's to the point where we paid the money fr the product in some small part we own the game, if enough of us say we want a change then what's wrong with that. Again yes I know we don't own any part of the game but in a small way we do.
I must respectfully disagree with Movie Bob (at least his twitter post).
The main backlash with regards to the endings is that we received a a substandard product, when we were promised something a lot more better. for $60 bucks a game, I better receive what was promised.
The fact of the matter is that videogames are an interactive medium and when you encourage even more interactivity, you only set the bar higher.
What we can take away from the "Ending Saga" of Mass Effect 3, is the developers are going to be a little bit more cautious with regards to the Mass Effect level of interactivity within a product. Those that commit to such level, are going to find themselves against an even higher bar of quality.
As a consumer, I applaud this.
The main backlash with regards to the endings is that we received a a substandard product, when we were promised something a lot more better. for $60 bucks a game, I better receive what was promised.
The fact of the matter is that videogames are an interactive medium and when you encourage even more interactivity, you only set the bar higher.
What we can take away from the "Ending Saga" of Mass Effect 3, is the developers are going to be a little bit more cautious with regards to the Mass Effect level of interactivity within a product. Those that commit to such level, are going to find themselves against an even higher bar of quality.
As a consumer, I applaud this.
Retcons are not unusual, and being influenced by popular opinion means that, perhaps, your original work was kinda...just shitty art.
You don't have to be influenced by money: give the true-ending DLC away for free and then you'll see true art at its purest. Won't happen, but that's the solution.
Even then, why is monetary influence a bad thing? If you make a shit product, you shouldn't expect massive amounts of money until you improve it. If you're selling your art (and Bioware IS), then you're opening yourself up to criticism.
You don't have to be influenced by money: give the true-ending DLC away for free and then you'll see true art at its purest. Won't happen, but that's the solution.
Even then, why is monetary influence a bad thing? If you make a shit product, you shouldn't expect massive amounts of money until you improve it. If you're selling your art (and Bioware IS), then you're opening yourself up to criticism.
Of course! Didn't you know that the film industry is currently back in 1432?Zhukov said:
Yes and... Thankye kindly for reminding me of that Penny Arcade strip! That one needs to be posted in all threads someone says "don't change ME3 because it's AAWRRT!".BloatedGuppy said:I'd have a much easier time defending the ending of Mass Effect 3 as misunderstood art if it wasn't such rubbish.
-snip-
The whole thing reminds me of this old Penny Arcade:
because such views are silly, you see.
Frankly, I'm going to say 'Fuck Yes Bob'.
Artistic integrity or not, the day that people should cave into fans is the day Fan-Fiction gets published in paperback novel form.
To quote Yahtzee; "Fans are clingy, complaining dipshits who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices, the happier you'll be for it."
This whole thing has been blown so far out of the water its hard to take seriously, its hard to discern between a reasonable argument and rabid fan mouth frothing.
Artistic integrity or not, the day that people should cave into fans is the day Fan-Fiction gets published in paperback novel form.
To quote Yahtzee; "Fans are clingy, complaining dipshits who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices, the happier you'll be for it."
This whole thing has been blown so far out of the water its hard to take seriously, its hard to discern between a reasonable argument and rabid fan mouth frothing.
If somebody tells me they're going to paint a beach, and they hand me a painting of blue water with some white canvas, am i holding the medium of painting back by asking for him to add the sand on the beach? (Keeping in mind that there is still white on the canvas for him to add the sand)
That would be a clever analogy if test screenings for a movie and a released game weren't very different things, considering the entire purpose of a test screening is to see if changes need to be made.Zhukov said:
Yes, they are silly, which is exactly why people aren't saying that (outside of hyperbole in arguments against people who defend the ending).Zen Toombs said:
That would also be a clever analogy if the game didn't have an ending, but it obviously did, you just didn't like it. If they painted a beach and then you demanded that he repaint it because you want it to be different to suit your opinions, then you'd be on the right track.HalfTangible said:
Ha! I never thought of that!Zhukov said:
Well I guess movies are not art either! the medium is being set back decades! oh and authors who let their publisher recommend changes? sets the medium back centuries! /sarcasm
OT: wow, I normally have a little respect for the guy, but this is too much. He derides people for acting with near-sighted rage, and yet he does exactly that.
Wow Bob, calm down a bit man.