Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review

[Squilookle]

Lol, 6 pages.

And to think the whole argument can be summed up by the first minute of this vid:

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Well you are correct that it is "at least as powerful as a dreadnought". Snoke's flagship is the single largest ship ever made in Star Wars apart from the Death Star (if you consider that a ship). The dreadnoughts were over 7.6km long and 4km wide. The Supremacy was 13km long and 60km wide. Now, with just the TIE fighters at a dreadnought's disposal they barely failed to stop Poe's run and Poe was barely able to take out the point defense turrets and the bombers were just enough to destroy a dreadnought. The hell were they going to do to the Supremacy?

I dunno, some wacky hothead plan involving hyperspace and bombracks pulled off due to sheer pluckiness and bravado. Standard Star Wars Hero plan.

Accurate, but at that point their material forces don't matter in the face of pixie dust the force.

Welcome to Space Magic 101. Today's lesion is that Space Magic trumps mortal technology.

This is why they don't bring this kind of stuff up in the other movies and just let any tactical victory be a tactical victory. We're not supposed to care about logistics.

Do you want the movies to be the same or do you want the movies to be different.

Like, blowing up the Death Star didn't prevent the Rebellion from getting its face kicked in on Hoth.

Well no, iirc they knew when they abandoned their other ships because they could scan the life signs on them. And yes, these people are descended from the same force that didn't fire on an escape pod just because it didn't have life signs (despite droids being a thing), but if we're supposed to care that tactics and strategy matter, what was her plan if they decided to search the only nearby planet where last they detected life signs?

And how were they going to hitch a ride anyway? They have no other forces anywhere and if the plan had succeeded perfectly, they'd have ~400 people. Too many to fit on the Millennium Falcon and too large for a stealthed ship (presumably since only tiny landing craft had been stealthed) to carry. Just having the FO leave a ship in orbit to search the debris would be enough to strand them there until they starved judging from the lack of food in the base.

Nah. See, the FO could only detect life signs at about the range that their guns could do damage. If the Resistance kept up the chase for an hour or two before making a last jump into hyperspace, there'd be plenty of time for a medium transport to sneak past the inevitability lax security the FO left around the dead planet...or at least, that's how the Hail Mary plan was supposed to work out.

Did they establish the range of the scanners? I legit don't remember. And man would it be awkward if the Supremacy had better scanners on top of warp tracking.

The characters don't get all the information we do.

Could the FO have thwarted it? I mean, yeah? Probably? Especially if Snoke wasn't distracted/bisected by Rey and Ren. It's a bad plan. It might be a better plan then "try to sneak about the enemy flagship, find which specific power conduit housed the tracking device, break that quietly with a hacker that really only has Maz's word going for him, and escape undetected, hoping to make it to hyperspace before anybody notices anything's amiss", but it's not a good plan. The Resistance didn't have the resources to make a good plan.

I mean, that's the problem. The resistance doesn't just not have the resources to make a good plan, they just plain don't have resources. You could just assume the rebels had as many people and equipment as the plot demanded but they've now hard established that the resistance is incapable of fighting the FO at any level at the start of the movie. At the end of the movie, calling them the resistance is comical.

What, Leia and Holdo got pissed that Poe launched their forces in a costly tactical victory because they wanted to launch their forces for a costly tactical victory later on?

They wanted their pilots and ships alive instead of being sacrificed for a pointless tactical win, yes. That's kind the whole point of the movie "don't win the battle at the cost of the war". This isn't going to be a short fight. After the blitzkrieg, you build up a fighting force. We're still in the middle of that blitz. Even the people who had the ability to fight back after all of the New Republic got nuked were busy fighting the FO, or cowed into submission, because, holy shit, an entire system just got annihilated outta nowhere.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The heroic thing would have been to abandon one ship, and hyper jump it into the enemy flagship so the Resistance can escape. Doing it as basically a last resort after all but two handfuls of Resistance members are left is just stupid if that was always an option.

Assuming it could be guaranteed to work and was known to be necessary.

A tactic of last resort is the least good option. Maybe it's hugely damaging (particularly to oneself), or a desperate roll of the dice because the chances of success are so small. It's what you do when you absolutely have to, not when there's still a potentially better alternative.

Only reason Holdo's attack worked was because Hux deliberately ignored it, thinking it was jumping away as a distraction. I get the feeling this is a tactic that's A) hard to pull off if the enemy's wise to it, and B) so desperate most people wouldn't think of it/have clearance to disable enough safety features to pull it off.

Like, not every plane angles in for a kamikaze when they're getting shot down, you know?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

Do you want the movies to be the same or do you want the movies to be different.

Like, blowing up the Death Star didn't prevent the Rebellion from getting its face kicked in on Hoth.

If they're going to be different, they can't half-ass it. We can't care about logistics up until it's pointed out that Leia and Holdo aren't very good at building a military. Because then the movie isn't different. TLJ isn't significantly different from previous SW movies despite all the lip service to "subverting expectations". However all the minor changes they tried mostly just raised questions about literally everyone's competence.

The characters don't get all the information we do.

Exactly. That's the problem. They're relying on the FO not noticing the last ship was empty before they fired on it/it jumped to hyperspace. Even if that happens, it's still a poor plan that's thwarted by even the smallest amount of caution on the part of the FO.

But the worst plan was engaging the FO at all with such meager forces. In the last movie. And presumably what they'd have done if they kept their forces.

They wanted their pilots and ships alive instead of being sacrificed for a pointless tactical win, yes. That's kind the whole point of the movie "don't win the battle at the cost of the war". This isn't going to be a short fight. After the blitzkrieg, you build up a fighting force. We're still in the middle of that blitz. Even the people who had the ability to fight back after all of the New Republic got nuked were busy fighting the FO, or cowed into submission, because, holy shit, an entire system just got annihilated outta nowhere.

"Cost of the war" is the problem here. Those forces Poe lost couldn't cost them the war. To cost the war, they would have to be integral to winning the war. The size of the force needed for the resistance to win the war will absolutely dwarf what Poe lost and render them strategically insignificant. They will be replaced a dozen times over for a single battle. All Leia and Holdo could do with that force in a war capacity is throw them at another suicide mission somewhere else.

Or they're going to have the hero fight the villain and render all material advantage meaningless because this is Star Wars and they can't do anything different, even when they try.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The characters don't get all the information we do.

Exactly. That's the problem. They're relying on the FO not noticing the last ship was empty before they fired on it/it jumped to hyperspace. Even if that happens, it's still a poor plan that's thwarted by even the smallest amount of caution on the part of the FO.

But the worst plan was engaging the FO at all with such meager forces. In the last movie. And presumably what they'd have done if they kept their forces.

I...what? Starkiller Base forced their hand. It was going to wipe them out from across the galaxy just like it did the Republic. The base they were leaving in TLJ was the base they were defending in TFA.

Had Starkiller Base not been a thing, the New Republic would've been powerful enough to stop the FO, and other Imperial remnants likely wouldn't've supported them.

They wanted their pilots and ships alive instead of being sacrificed for a pointless tactical win, yes. That's kind the whole point of the movie "don't win the battle at the cost of the war". This isn't going to be a short fight. After the blitzkrieg, you build up a fighting force. We're still in the middle of that blitz. Even the people who had the ability to fight back after all of the New Republic got nuked were busy fighting the FO, or cowed into submission, because, holy shit, an entire system just got annihilated outta nowhere.

"Cost of the war" is the problem here. Those forces Poe lost couldn't cost them the war. To cost the war, they would have to be integral to winning the war. The size of the force needed for the resistance to win the war will absolutely dwarf what Poe lost and render them strategically insignificant. They will be replaced a dozen times over for a single battle. All Leia and Holdo could do with that force in a war capacity is throw them at another suicide mission somewhere else.

Or they're going to have the hero fight the villain and render all material advantage meaningless because this is Star Wars and they can't do anything different, even when they try.

The first battl of the movie is literally the only time the Resistance had a choice to not engage. And they shouldn't've. At least by Leia's estimation in the immediate aftermath before they found out they got tracked. Those fighters and bomber fleet might've not "won the war", but they certainly could've been useful in the short term to help make sure there was anybody around to fight the war. As it is, they didn't even stall anything.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

The characters don't get all the information we do.

Exactly. That's the problem. They're relying on the FO not noticing the last ship was empty before they fired on it/it jumped to hyperspace. Even if that happens, it's still a poor plan that's thwarted by even the smallest amount of caution on the part of the FO.

But the worst plan was engaging the FO at all with such meager forces. In the last movie. And presumably what they'd have done if they kept their forces.

I...what? Starkiller Base forced their hand. It was going to wipe them out from across the galaxy just like it did the Republic. The base they were leaving in TLJ was the base they were defending in TFA.

Had Starkiller Base not been a thing, the New Republic would've been powerful enough to stop the FO, and other Imperial remnants likely wouldn't've supported them.

Doubtful if the republic's military was contained to a single system. A single star system is nothing compared to the size of the galaxy and the FO has enough of a military force to forcibly take the galaxy. That means being able to attack defended worlds and patrol sectors. The republic military wasn't big enough to stop that, though it was large enough to be threatening. That's the problem with these movies, they went so far to make the good guys the underdogs that they've made them absolutely useless and completely not a threat to the villains. The resistance needs a military the size of the republic's before it got wiped out to be in the same position the rebels were in the original trilogy.

So unfortunately, the correct strategic move to have made in the previous movie was let Starkiller stay up. They didn't have the means to fight it and the FO. They would have had to make a diffuse force and really hide from the FO for decades until they built up their forces. Unfortunately, the writers wrote them as having lost the war before it began.

They wanted their pilots and ships alive instead of being sacrificed for a pointless tactical win, yes. That's kind the whole point of the movie "don't win the battle at the cost of the war". This isn't going to be a short fight. After the blitzkrieg, you build up a fighting force. We're still in the middle of that blitz. Even the people who had the ability to fight back after all of the New Republic got nuked were busy fighting the FO, or cowed into submission, because, holy shit, an entire system just got annihilated outta nowhere.

"Cost of the war" is the problem here. Those forces Poe lost couldn't cost them the war. To cost the war, they would have to be integral to winning the war. The size of the force needed for the resistance to win the war will absolutely dwarf what Poe lost and render them strategically insignificant. They will be replaced a dozen times over for a single battle. All Leia and Holdo could do with that force in a war capacity is throw them at another suicide mission somewhere else.

Or they're going to have the hero fight the villain and render all material advantage meaningless because this is Star Wars and they can't do anything different, even when they try.

The first battl of the movie is literally the only time the Resistance had a choice to not engage. And they shouldn't've. At least by Leia's estimation in the immediate aftermath before they found out they got tracked. Those fighters and bomber fleet might've not "won the war", but they certainly could've been useful in the short term to help make sure there was anybody around to fight the war. As it is, they didn't even stall anything.

They weren't going to stall anything anyway. I don't think you grasp just how badly the resistance is actually fucked by the writing. That chase was by the FO's flagship and 30 more star destroyers like the one they blew up earlier and that's not all of the FO's fleet. The rest of the fleet is out taking the galaxy while this is going on, so that's not even a large part of the fleet. They have manufacturing facilities and bases, and the resistance has no idea where any of them are because they've done no reconnaissance on the FO in the 30 year lead up. None of the now-former-republic manufacturing companies have their factories set up to compete with the FO's production capability so it'll be years before they can even start to arm any rebellion. If the original trilogy was a David vs Goliath scenario, this is an ant vs a titan scenario. The resistance actually literally has no moves it can play and won't for decades.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Doubtful if the republic's military was contained to a single system. A single star system is nothing compared to the size of the galaxy and the FO has enough of a military force to forcibly take the galaxy. That means being able to attack defended worlds and patrol sectors. The republic military wasn't big enough to stop that, though it was large enough to be threatening. That's the problem with these movies, they went so far to make the good guys the underdogs that they've made them absolutely useless and completely not a threat to the villains. The resistance needs a military the size of the republic's before it got wiped out to be in the same position the rebels were in the original trilogy.

So unfortunately, the correct strategic move to have made in the previous movie was let Starkiller stay up. They didn't have the means to fight it and the FO. They would have had to make a diffuse force and really hide from the FO for decades until they built up their forces. Unfortunately, the writers wrote them as having lost the war before it began.

Incorrect. Canonically, the New Republic was more than powerful enough to wipe out the First Order, just not powerful enough to wipe out the First Order and fight the rest of the Imperial Remnants at the same time.

They were the biggest dick on the block pre-Star Killer, but they couldn't out fight literally everybody. Least, not quickly.

And who's to say the FO can hold the Galaxy? Fighting is ongoing. We're in the middle of the blitz. Local Warlords are making their play, they just weren't willing/able to go all in on the FO's flagship fleet on short notice. The Empire couldn't hold the galaxy, and it started with control of most of it. We got plenty of fighting to go.

They weren't going to stall anything anyway. I don't think you grasp just how badly the resistance is actually fucked by the writing. That chase was by the FO's flagship and 30 more star destroyers like the one they blew up earlier and that's not all of the FO's fleet. The rest of the fleet is out taking the galaxy while this is going on, so that's not even a large part of the fleet. They have manufacturing facilities and bases, and the resistance has no idea where any of them are because they've done no reconnaissance on the FO in the 30 year lead up. None of the now-former-republic manufacturing companies have their factories set up to compete with the FO's production capability so it'll be years before they can even start to arm any rebellion. If the original trilogy was a David vs Goliath scenario, this is an ant vs a titan scenario. The resistance actually literally has no moves it can play and won't for decades.

No, the FO's flagship fleet wasn't made up of 30 Dreadnoughts, don't be silly. There's a reason Poe thought that was a Big Deal. The Resistance has been running hit-and-run freedom fighter/terror attacks on the FO for years, they're the one's who knew the FO was rearming in the first place. The FO just managed to have good OpSec for once with Starkiller.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Doubtful if the republic's military was contained to a single system. A single star system is nothing compared to the size of the galaxy and the FO has enough of a military force to forcibly take the galaxy. That means being able to attack defended worlds and patrol sectors. The republic military wasn't big enough to stop that, though it was large enough to be threatening. That's the problem with these movies, they went so far to make the good guys the underdogs that they've made them absolutely useless and completely not a threat to the villains. The resistance needs a military the size of the republic's before it got wiped out to be in the same position the rebels were in the original trilogy.

So unfortunately, the correct strategic move to have made in the previous movie was let Starkiller stay up. They didn't have the means to fight it and the FO. They would have had to make a diffuse force and really hide from the FO for decades until they built up their forces. Unfortunately, the writers wrote them as having lost the war before it began.

Incorrect. Canonically, the New Republic was more than powerful enough to wipe out the First Order, just not powerful enough to wipe out the First Order and fight the rest of the Imperial Remnants at the same time.

You keep saying "imperial remnants", they all left to the outer rim and set up factories and made billions of credits. The FO IS the imperial remnants. They didn't gather a bunch of new people when they invaded, they've been consolidating their forces for decades.

Meanwhile, the republic cut their military by 90% before the FO attacked. This is all canon. The republic didn't have much of a military and the FO outnumbered them. With just the dispatch they sent against the resistance in TLJ, they could have alpha struck the republic military and likely would have won. It's just that Starkiller was smarter.

They were the biggest dick on the block pre-Star Killer, but they couldn't out fight literally everybody. Least, not quickly.

And who's to say the FO can hold the Galaxy? Fighting is ongoing. We're in the middle of the blitz. Local Warlords are making their play, they just weren't willing/able to go all in on the FO's flagship fleet on short notice. The Empire couldn't hold the galaxy, and it started with control of most of it. We got plenty of fighting to go.

The empire had de facto control of the galaxy apart from a couple of criminal empires that were more trouble than they were worth. The FO is poised to take all the territory the empire had. The republic had less of a military than the rebels had at the end of episode 6. The resistance didn't even exist before they lost their "fleet".

They weren't going to stall anything anyway. I don't think you grasp just how badly the resistance is actually fucked by the writing. That chase was by the FO's flagship and 30 more star destroyers like the one they blew up earlier and that's not all of the FO's fleet. The rest of the fleet is out taking the galaxy while this is going on, so that's not even a large part of the fleet. They have manufacturing facilities and bases, and the resistance has no idea where any of them are because they've done no reconnaissance on the FO in the 30 year lead up. None of the now-former-republic manufacturing companies have their factories set up to compete with the FO's production capability so it'll be years before they can even start to arm any rebellion. If the original trilogy was a David vs Goliath scenario, this is an ant vs a titan scenario. The resistance actually literally has no moves it can play and won't for decades.

No, the FO's flagship fleet wasn't made up of 30 Dreadnoughts, don't be silly. There's a reason Poe thought that was a Big Deal. The Resistance has been running hit-and-run freedom fighter/terror attacks on the FO for years, they're the one's who knew the FO was rearming in the first place. The FO just managed to have good OpSec for once with Starkiller.

I'm sorry to say, but Star Wars: The Last Jedi: The Visual Dictionary is canon and they describe the forces at the disposal of the FO during that chase sequence and it details that the FO had 30 star destroyers with them on top of the Supremacy. No, the FO really does outnumber everyone that hard.

 

[twistedmic]

I'm sorry to say, but Star Wars: The Last Jedi: The Visual Dictionary is canon and they describe the forces at the disposal of the FO during that chase sequence and it details that the FO had 30 star destroyers with them on top of the Supremacy. No, the FO really does outnumber everyone that hard.

Watching the movie, the First Order fleet had nine Star Destroyers (either Imperial or Super class) along with Snoke's Mega Star Destroyer. And by your logic, because they were destroyed by the Raddus's kamikaze attack, they weren't any danger to the Raddus and the remaining Resistance members.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I'm sorry to say, but Star Wars: The Last Jedi: The Visual Dictionary is canon and they describe the forces at the disposal of the FO during that chase sequence and it details that the FO had 30 star destroyers with them on top of the Supremacy. No, the FO really does outnumber everyone that hard.

Watching the movie, the First Order fleet had nine Star Destroyers (either Imperial or Super class) along with Snoke's Mega Star Destroyer. And by your logic, because they were destroyed by the Raddus's kamikaze attack, they weren't any danger to the Raddus and the remaining Resistance members.

Blame the writers for not syncing the novelization up with the movie, if true.

And that's not my logic. My logic is that ~30 attack craft aren't noticeable on the strategic scale, and that is all their attack craft. Thus they don't exist on a strategic scale.

 

[twistedmic]

I'm sorry to say, but Star Wars: The Last Jedi: The Visual Dictionary is canon and they describe the forces at the disposal of the FO during that chase sequence and it details that the FO had 30 star destroyers with them on top of the Supremacy. No, the FO really does outnumber everyone that hard.

Watching the movie, the First Order fleet had nine Star Destroyers (either Imperial or Super class) along with Snoke's Mega Star Destroyer. And by your logic, because they were destroyed by the Raddus's kamikaze attack, they weren't any danger to the Raddus and the remaining Resistance members.

Blame the writers for not syncing the novelization up with the movie, if true.

And that's not my logic. My logic is that ~30 attack craft aren't noticeable on the strategic scale, and that is all their attack craft. Thus they don't exist on a strategic scale.

Your logic seems to be- The Republic fleet was destroyed so they are inferior to the First Order and therefore not a threat. Holdo all but crippled the Supremacy and eradicated nine Star Destroyers in a single attack, therefore the Supremacy and those nine Star Destroyers were inferior and not a threat to the Resistance.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I'm sorry to say, but Star Wars: The Last Jedi: The Visual Dictionary is canon and they describe the forces at the disposal of the FO during that chase sequence and it details that the FO had 30 star destroyers with them on top of the Supremacy. No, the FO really does outnumber everyone that hard.

Watching the movie, the First Order fleet had nine Star Destroyers (either Imperial or Super class) along with Snoke's Mega Star Destroyer. And by your logic, because they were destroyed by the Raddus's kamikaze attack, they weren't any danger to the Raddus and the remaining Resistance members.

Blame the writers for not syncing the novelization up with the movie, if true.

And that's not my logic. My logic is that ~30 attack craft aren't noticeable on the strategic scale, and that is all their attack craft. Thus they don't exist on a strategic scale.

Your logic seems to be- The Republic fleet was destroyed so they are inferior to the First Order and therefore not a threat. Holdo all but crippled the Supremacy and eradicated nine Star Destroyers in a single attack, therefore the Supremacy and those nine Star Destroyers were inferior and not a threat to the Resistance.

Was that the whole FO military? Do they no longer exist in the galaxy? Is episode 9 going to be everyone patting themselves on the back?

Because the republic is gone and they don't have a military anymore. They were all taken out at once. In literally one attack.

 

[twistedmic]

Because the republic is gone and they don't have a military anymore. They were all taken out at once. In literally one attack.

We haven't seen definitively in the movies that the Republic is totally gone and no longer has any military forces at all. We just know that the home system of the Republic was destroyed. There may still be Republic remnants, or even Republic sympathizers, scattered throughout the galaxy that have to regroup.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Because the republic is gone and they don't have a military anymore. They were all taken out at once. In literally one attack.

We haven't seen definitively in the movies that the Republic is totally gone and no longer has any military forces at all. We just know that the home system of the Republic was destroyed. There may still be Republic remnants, or even Republic sympathizers, scattered throughout the galaxy that have to regroup.

In the backstory the Republic cut 90% of it's military and were in the process of having the various sections of the galaxy defend themselves, though they didn't have that up and running. At best the Republic has a few light patrol boats putzing around the galaxy. And in either case, 10% of what they had at the end of episode 6 is pretty flimsy for repulsing a full invasion. A fraction of 10% is even worse.

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

Luke is not a coward. He doesn't lack bravery; he lacks motivation.

He has lost his belief in The Force as the answer to a better galaxy. This is, after all, a man whose father fell to the dark side and was integral in the creation of the Empire, and who when attempting to train new Jedi saw one - his own nephew, no less - turn to the dark side, kill all the other recruits and join Empire 2.0. He sees Jedis, he sees catastrophe waiting to happen. He just needs convincing that won't be the case this time round.

I say he is a coward because he runs away from the problem he created. See, I would respect him if he was on the warpath to take out Kylo and Snoke and THEN end the Jedi. Or I would respect him, if he went into deep meditation/ archival research mode to figure out what went wrong and how to stop it from happening again, and then going out to stop Kylo and Snoke in some way.

What I do not respect because it's cowardly and stupid is to say he wants to end the Jedi because otherwise 'othwerise catastrophe is waiting to happen.' It's like, dude, the catastrophe already happened. There's already Sith. They came back. It's late and now is the time to stop them. Think about hypothetical and academic dangers of the Jedi later. You have got real Sith with a penchant for building super weapons to stop. Fix your mess first. THEN retire into a grumpy old hermit. But he leaves the rest of the galaxy to solve his mess. What makes it worse, is he holds the best chance of success of going up against a pair of Sith, but he won't be the defender that the Jedi were intended to be. That's cowardice: to make a mess and as the most capable person to clean it up, you walk away to let others with much less ability to do your dirty work for you. They did Luke dirty.

 

[WindKnight]

Luke is not a coward. He doesn't lack bravery; he lacks motivation.

He has lost his belief in The Force as the answer to a better galaxy. This is, after all, a man whose father fell to the dark side and was integral in the creation of the Empire, and who when attempting to train new Jedi saw one - his own nephew, no less - turn to the dark side, kill all the other recruits and join Empire 2.0. He sees Jedis, he sees catastrophe waiting to happen. He just needs convincing that won't be the case this time round.

I say he is a coward because he runs away from the problem he created. See, I would respect him if he was on the warpath to take out Kylo and Snoke and THEN end the Jedi. Or I would respect him, if he went into deep meditation/ archival research mode to figure out what went wrong and how to stop it from happening again, and then going out to stop Kylo and Snoke in some way.

What I do not respect because it's cowardly and stupid is to say he wants to end the Jedi because otherwise 'othwerise catastrophe is waiting to happen.' It's like, dude, the catastrophe already happened. There's already Sith. They came back. It's late and now is the time to stop them. Think about hypothetical and academic dangers of the Jedi later. You have got real Sith with a penchant for building super weapons to stop. Fix your mess first. THEN retire into a grumpy old hermit. But he leaves the rest of the galaxy to solve his mess. What makes it worse, is he holds the best chance of success of going up against a pair of Sith, but he won't be the defender that the Jedi were intended to be. That's cowardice: to make a mess and as the most capable person to clean it up, you walk away to let others with much less ability to do your dirty work for you. They did Luke dirty.

Lets see, what did his mentors-to-be do when they futzed everything up and failed to stop the empire rising?

One went into hiding on a desert planet.

The other went into hiding on a swamp planet.

Jedi aren't all conquering bad asses here to kick ass and take names. Their about balance, harmony and non violence and defence as a last resort.

The one time Luke flat out kicks Darth Vader's arse, its because he FAILED to control his emotions and almost fell to the darkside. And for on fleeting instant, he almost did that again. He almost killed someone, and led them to believe they had to defend themselves ruthlessly, and all of luke's students died (or maybe some became Knights Of Ren) as a result.

And that shook Luke, and gave him the idea that the best thing he could do was GTFO before he made things worse.

 

[Trunkage]

Lets see, what did his mentors-to-be do when they futzed everything up and failed to stop the empire rising?

One went into hiding on a desert planet.

The other went into hiding on a swamp planet.

Jedi aren't all conquering bad asses here to kick ass and take names. Their about balance, harmony and non violence and defence as a last resort.

The one time Luke flat out kicks Darth Vader's arse, its because he FAILED to control his emotions and almost fell to the darkside. And for on fleeting instant, he almost did that again. He almost killed someone, and led them to believe they had to defend themselves ruthlessly, and all of luke's students died (or maybe some became Knights Of Ren) as a result.

And that shook Luke, and gave him the idea that the best thing he could do was GTFO before he made things worse.

Comparing Luke to his mentors gives you an idea of how stupid Jedi are. In TLJ, Luke did way more to help the galaxy than Yoda and Kenobi did in the originals. Yoda and Kenobi created a monster and, even after defeating said monster, let the how galaxy disintergrate. The Jedi seemed to be designed to make things worse and let other people clean up their problems. They have an overblown sense of importance without actually putting the effort in. They always think they're right despite evidence to the contrary. They twist reality to suit themselves (e.g. certain points of view.) I.e. the jedi are the Trumps of this universe.

 

[Marik2]

Lets see, what did his mentors-to-be do when they futzed everything up and failed to stop the empire rising?

One went into hiding on a desert planet.

The other went into hiding on a swamp planet.

Jedi aren't all conquering bad asses here to kick ass and take names. Their about balance, harmony and non violence and defence as a last resort.

The one time Luke flat out kicks Darth Vader's arse, its because he FAILED to control his emotions and almost fell to the darkside. And for on fleeting instant, he almost did that again. He almost killed someone, and led them to believe they had to defend themselves ruthlessly, and all of luke's students died (or maybe some became Knights Of Ren) as a result.

And that shook Luke, and gave him the idea that the best thing he could do was GTFO before he made things worse.

Comparing Luke to his mentors gives you an idea of how stupid Jedi are. In TLJ, Luke did way more to help the galaxy than Yoda and Kenobi did in the originals. Yoda and Kenobi created a monster and, even after defeating said monster, let the how galaxy disintergrate. The Jedi seemed to be designed to make things worse and let other people clean up their problems. They have an overblown sense of importance without actually putting the effort in. They always think they're right despite evidence to the contrary. They twist reality to suit themselves (e.g. certain points of view.) I.e. the jedi are the Trumps of this universe.

 

[Trunkage]

snippers

I wasn't specifically talking about stoicism or "toxic masculinity." I get concerned about royal blood lines, and Jedi acting like kings, telling everyone how to live.


Also, claiming stoicism is masculine is utter nonsense. I've know far too many women how can't express emotions. I've known far too many women who bear insane burdens. You know, like a stoic.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Comparing Luke to his mentors gives you an idea of how stupid Jedi are. In TLJ, Luke did way more to help the galaxy than Yoda and Kenobi did in the originals. Yoda and Kenobi created a monster and, even after defeating said monster, let the how galaxy disintergrate. The Jedi seemed to be designed to make things worse and let other people clean up their problems. They have an overblown sense of importance without actually putting the effort in. They always think they're right despite evidence to the contrary. They twist reality to suit themselves (e.g. certain points of view.) I.e. the jedi are the Trumps of this universe.

The US in general, honestly. They (think) they know what's best for everybody and they generally had to power or influence to enforce it.

Then, classic blunder, they'd "solve" the problem in the most seemingly expedient way possible. I mean, sure, that occasionally means kidnapping a child or two...

Like, the Sith were worse, sure, but I could see how otherwise good people would have a beef with Ye Ol' Jedi Order, and it's entirely self-inflicted. Turns out being able to sense fate doesn't help with self-reflection.