Multiple Consoles, do we need them?

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ThisNewGuy

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oliveira8 said:
Well..I have plenty of experience with just one sole competitor on a market and let me tell you...when theres only one calling the shots, nothing goes on.
Sigh, way to just ignore my post.

But game industry is different. A single console industry doesn't eliminate competition. A single console industry creates a way bigger competitive industry and a much more collaborative industry. It's not a "no competition" industry, it's a single console industry. The console will need to compete with itself for people to keep buying the console (just like Nintendo with their handhelds back in the days).
 

oliveira8

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ThisNewGuy said:
oliveira8 said:
Well..I have plenty of experience with just one sole competitor on a market and let me tell you...when theres only one calling the shots, nothing goes on.
Sigh, way to just ignore my post.

But game industry is different. A single console industry doesn't eliminate competition. A single console industry creates a way bigger competitive industry and a much more collaborative industry. It's not a "no competition" industry, it's a single console industry. The console will need to compete with itself for people to keep buying the console (just like Nintendo with their handhelds back in the days).
How do you know its different?

Ah exactly.
 

GonzoGamer

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VZLANemesis said:
GonzoGamer said:
VZLANemesis said:
So... yeah, all important exclusives that Sony used to have are all going multiplatform (Square now working with 360's as well makes me cry), and many former Xbox exclusives are going the sony way as well.
Most exclusives are meh, or don't actually matter all that much, and if you are one of those people who wants to play both Fable and Disgaea 3, you have to pay for 2 consoles, that are almost the exact same shit.
Because of the extreme competitions of the 3 console companies, we're getting the worst pieces for each individual console, so Xbox getting constant RRODs, Wii's crappy graphics, and PS3's non-programmer friendly processor.

What do you guys think? Should Next Gen Consoles be only a huge bastard child made by all three companies or do you actually think we (as gamers) are gaining anything from their constant competition for our attention?
I feel the same way as you except about the exclusives spreading around (I think it's a great thing) I think however that the answer is in allowing other electronics companies to make consoles. After the whole rrod debacle, I wouldn't buy an xbox for $20, but I might've bought let's say a Panasonic console that plays xbox games.
...so your solution is to add more consoles, and therefore pay more in hardware to get the same software, neat.
Actually my solution wouldn't just drive down the prices for consoles (by creating competition) but it would also ensure that they don't have these sorts of chronic hardware problems we often see.

Don't get me wrong, the 360 isn't the only console I refuse to buy because of hardware problems: I didn't buy a ps2 (eventually got one for free) because of it's early hardware problems.
 

VZLANemesis

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GonzoGamer said:
VZLANemesis said:
GonzoGamer said:
VZLANemesis said:
So... yeah, all important exclusives that Sony used to have are all going multiplatform (Square now working with 360's as well makes me cry), and many former Xbox exclusives are going the sony way as well.
Most exclusives are meh, or don't actually matter all that much, and if you are one of those people who wants to play both Fable and Disgaea 3, you have to pay for 2 consoles, that are almost the exact same shit.
Because of the extreme competitions of the 3 console companies, we're getting the worst pieces for each individual console, so Xbox getting constant RRODs, Wii's crappy graphics, and PS3's non-programmer friendly processor.

What do you guys think? Should Next Gen Consoles be only a huge bastard child made by all three companies or do you actually think we (as gamers) are gaining anything from their constant competition for our attention?
I feel the same way as you except about the exclusives spreading around (I think it's a great thing) I think however that the answer is in allowing other electronics companies to make consoles. After the whole rrod debacle, I wouldn't buy an xbox for $20, but I might've bought let's say a Panasonic console that plays xbox games.
...so your solution is to add more consoles, and therefore pay more in hardware to get the same software, neat.
Actually my solution wouldn't just drive down the prices for consoles (by creating competition) but it would also ensure that they don't have these sorts of chronic hardware problems we often see.

Don't get me wrong, the 360 isn't the only console I refuse to buy because of hardware problems: I didn't buy a ps2 (eventually got one for free) because of it's early hardware problems.
Yeah, that's usual. Early adopters get fucked.
 

Laughing Man

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Sorry but I have to wade in here. Any market requires competition the second you remove the competition and reduce it to a single manufacturer you have a monoploy and at this point the consumer is the biggest loser in that.

A market that has several competitors is a market that is always going to have a company trying something to get the interest of the consumer. Now to be honest in the current climate the consoles are all pretty much the same, at least 360 and PS3 wise with a few difference being the key reasons why someone buys a 360 and some buy a PS3. The only games that prove the breed are generally the first party exclusives of which there are only a few of any note on both consoles.

Now you have people saying why not combine the consoles and get the best of both worlds, well in cloud cuckoo land that may work but the reality is that the second you have a market that is controlled by one company they have no motive to make the best console / product because people don't have any alternative. MS is a grand example of this with Windows. they are on to the 6th iteration of the OS and they still haven't got it right and the OS itself has some fundimentals security flaws that would require the complete trashing of the very basic OS code to get it sorted. Something that would render old files useless. Now if MS had had competition from Linux at the start then who knows what the OS market would be like now.

Now lets take a look at what would happen with a current gen monopoly.

- Well first of all the consoles would not be as powerful as they are, primarily because IBM created the tech for the PS3 and along came MS and asked to buy a part of that tech, already competition has played a key role in this current gen console war.

- Games would not shockingly enough cost less and nor would they be of any better or for that matter worse quality. Since developers have to pay a fee to produce a game on a console as well as pay for the SDK to actually develop games a monopoly could charge the developers whatever the hell they wanted and that cost would be passed straight on to the consumer. fter all what's the developer gonna do, go develop for a rival conso... oh their aren;t any. A good example of this is the CPU and GPU wars the only reason we are getting powerful cheap CPUs and GPUs at the moment is because the companies are trying to out do each other any bet that if AMD, for example, went under the price of the Intel and Nvidia hardware would go up overnight by a sizeable margin.

- Singular format games will not create inter developer competition. The market itself right now has a huge number of developers releasing a whole host of game types. The market as it is right now is ideal for developers to try and compete against each other. Reducing the console market to one console format will not in any way create new or better games. The only way this may work is the detrimental effect of having a long term monopoly on the console. The reduction in the complex tech within the console may well leave more room for developers to experiment but chances are developers will do what they always do latch on to a genre that sells well and milk the creamy warm goodness from it.

Let's look at it this way and using a current gen example.

Take the RROD for example. Now not withstanding that in the current climate this should have never even made it past the drawing the board can you imagine what would have happened if MS has a monopoly.

A lot of people are under the mistaken impression that MS are all warm and fuzzy and actually care about their 360 RROD problems. They gave me a 3 year warranty and they came and collected my 360 and it only took them two weeks to repair. They are the people that think this is great service yet fail to grasp that the console should never have ever been allowed to RROD in the first place. Anyway MS didn't do this because they cared they did this because

a). They screwed up in a major way
b). They have two competitors both of whom can provide consoles that won't break down at a whim. Screw your customer over with piss poor service on a product that was faulty before it even left the factory and you lose that customer pretty damn quick.

Had MS had a monopoly if your 360 had gone tits up after 6 months you would be buying another 360 the next day.

Actually my solution wouldn't just drive down the prices for consoles (by creating competition) but it would also ensure that they don't have these sorts of chronic hardware problems we often see.
No, some fundimentals

- MS and Sony make nothing on the consoles they sell. They make money from the developers paying them money for the rights to release games on their consoles. That means that if Panasonic for example where to make a 360 they would first if all have to pay MS for the rights to use their designs and they wouldn't see a penny of the software developers money because end of the day it's MS who controls the rights for developers to use their SDK. So

a). Panasonic would have to sell the console at a greater price than MS
b). Since Panasonic is using MS designs for the console and will see very little return it is highly unlikely you would see any weeding out of fundimental flaws such as the RROD, Panasonic wouldn't want to funnel money in to resolving design flaws with a piece of hardware they aren't gonna make money on.

The fact is the GPU market has shown already the worse aspects of this idea.

Third party GPU producers have to buy the rights to use Nvidia designs. Once they do this they can do several things

a). Look at the design and see what they strip off and sell the card cheaper
b). See what they can add to make the card better and sell it at a higher price

Now the market is different to the consoles in that they actually make money on the hardware so design changes at this stage do make a difference but the fact is these changes are very small and do not weed out funidmental flaws in pieice of tech. Look at the Nvidia laptop debacle where number of Nvidia based gpus began failing on mass. These GPUs were released by several hardware produces but because they all used the basic designs provided by Nvidia they all suffered the same issue.
 

VZLANemesis

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xtreme_phoenix said:
do you really want to eat a 700 dollar price tag for each new "next gen" system? because the ps3 came close to that WITH the threat of competition.
I explained a point earlier to counter this... err.. how much do you pay for the 3 consoles?
My point exactly.
Na, I really doubt that in a only one console scenario, that they would be able to get away with the one being sucky. Look at the NES days, it had no competition and yet the SNES was a significant advancement (or did SEGA launch before the SNES... gotta look that up)
 

Barry93

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No we don't, but there's no doubt we will anyway because Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo want to make money and they certainly have the right to try. I wouldn't have it any other way. All companies and developers have the right and opportunity to succeed.
 

Laughing Man

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Na, I really doubt that in a only one console scenario, that they would be able to get away with the one being sucky. Look at the NES days, it had no competition and yet the SNES was a significant advancement (or did SEGA launch before the SNES... gotta look that up)

*Sigh* Master System.
 

VZLANemesis

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Laughing Man said:
Now you have people saying why not combine the consoles and get the best of both worlds, well in cloud cuckoo land that may work but the reality is that the second you have a market that is controlled by one company they have no motive to make the best console / product because people don't have any alternative. MS is a grand example of this with Windows. they are on to the 6th iteration of the OS and they still haven't got it right and the OS itself has some fundimentals security flaws that would require the complete trashing of the very basic OS code to get it sorted. Something that would render old files useless. Now if MS had had competition from Linux at the start then who knows what the OS market would be like now.

Now lets take a look at what would happen with a current gen monopoly.

- Well first of all the consoles would not be as powerful as they are, primarily because IBM created the tech for the PS3 and along came MS and asked to buy a part of that tech, already competition has played a key role in this current gen console war.
Mmm... I get the whole no competition no advancement point as it is usually a good point (look at Internet Explorer, before Firefox came along absolutely no work was being done on it whatsoever)
BUT, I doubt the console hardware would get stuck in any way. Seeing how consoles are basically (and I know its a bit too loose on the "basically, but go with it) a custom built pc. And PC hardware keeps improving simply because the market demands so. (I know the Pentium/AMD war is also a factor, but the fact is internet keeps growing, more data keeps needing to be stored and processed faster)
Every 3-4 years, the one console would get a "newer" version in order to keep up with technology.

Laughing Man said:
- Games would not shockingly enough cost less and nor would they be of any better or for that matter worse quality. Since developers have to pay a fee to produce a game on a console as well as pay for the SDK to actually develop games a monopoly could charge the developers whatever the hell they wanted and that cost would be passed straight on to the consumer. fter all what's the developer gonna do, go develop for a rival conso... oh their aren;t any. A good example of this is the CPU and GPU wars the only reason we are getting powerful cheap CPUs and GPUs at the moment is because the companies are trying to out do each other any bet that if AMD, for example, went under the price of the Intel and Nvidia hardware would go up overnight by a sizeable margin.
(dude spelling seriously, pay a bit more attention to it XD, just noticed it in this paragraph)
This is actually a really good point, and one that I hadn't heard.
the SDK thing not the gpu thing, that's the same as the last point)

Laughing Man said:
- Singular format games will not create inter developer competition. The market itself right now has a huge number of developers releasing a whole host of game types. The market as it is right now is ideal for developers to try and compete against each other. Reducing the console market to one console format will not in any way create new or better games. The only way this may work is the detrimental effect of having a long term monopoly on the console. The reduction in the complex tech within the console may well leave more room for developers to experiment but chances are developers will do what they always do latch on to a genre that sells well and milk the creamy warm goodness from it.
Not really a valid argument, look at early PC gaming. Its pretty absurd to say that "there would be a genre to rule them all" (although fps seems to be king right now)
But yeah, consumers like me exist everywhere, I like original creative games, and those are the ones I buy, so yeah. The company that would look for that "non-targeted market" would be a winner (look at the wii) competition in software wouldn't be a factor. I repeat the point I've written over 10 times Console Developers=/=Game Developers.

Laughing Man said:
Let's look at it this way and using a current gen example.

Take the RROD for example. Now not withstanding that in the current climate this should have never even made it past the drawing the board can you imagine what would have happened if MS has a monopoly.

A lot of people are under the mistaken impression that MS are all warm and fuzzy and actually care about their 360 RROD problems. They gave me a 3 year warranty and they came and collected my 360 and it only took them two weeks to repair. They are the people that think this is great service yet fail to grasp that the console should never have ever been allowed to RROD in the first place. Anyway MS didn't do this because they cared they did this because

a). They screwed up in a major way
b). They have two competitors both of whom can provide consoles that won't break down at a whim. Screw your customer over with piss poor service on a product that was faulty before it even left the factory and you lose that customer pretty damn quick.

Had MS had a monopoly if your 360 had gone tits up after 6 months you would be buying another 360 the next day.
Dude, remember... why did Microsoft rush development of their new console and didn't even test it enough to notice critical hardware failure, they wanted to get their console as fast as they could to the market.
I understand your comments, and I really like the fact that someone finally made a post with a lot of thoughts put into it (and I really enjoy discussing like this) but I believe that in a world with the one RROD wouldn't ever had existed.

PS. Excelent post btw.
 

James Cassidy

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It's a difficult subject, but I want to say that all systems focus on a certain demographic.

Xbox360 are more to the teenager demographic which is more than 80% of gaming industry. Sure adults play, but it is mostly kids and teenagers.

The Wii goes for the younger gamers, which I believe is a good thing. My child can have fun and I don't have to worry about things being too violent and what not.

The PS3 is for more elite gamers, but not elite as in better, elite as in more of an older steady job kind of people. semi-rich people.

Competition is healthy in small doses, but the gaming industry is an all out war for fanboys.

I buy the system for the games, not for consoles.
 

VZLANemesis

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Laughing Man said:
Na, I really doubt that in a only one console scenario, that they would be able to get away with the one being sucky. Look at the NES days, it had no competition and yet the SNES was a significant advancement (or did SEGA launch before the SNES... gotta look that up)

*Sigh* Master System.
lol, ok, I'm old enough to remember some stuff, old consoles and shit, but in my country I don't think i ever saw a Master System.
Yeah, sad indeed.
 

VZLANemesis

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James Cassidy said:
It's a difficult subject, but I want to say that all systems focus on a certain demographic.

Xbox360 are more to the teenager demographic which is more than 80% of gaming industry. Sure adults play, but it is mostly kids and teenagers.

The Wii goes for the younger gamers, which I believe is a good thing. My child can have fun and I don't have to worry about things being too violent and what not.

The PS3 is for more elite gamers, but not elite as in better, elite as in more of an older steady job kind of people. semi-rich people.

Competition is healthy in small doses, but the gaming industry is an all out war for fanboys.

I buy the system for the games, not for consoles.
Remember that the Wii is the most sold console right now, it not only targets kids, it targets non-gamers. Moms, older people, the so called casual gamers.
Just little correction...
And yeah, how do you buy a system for the games, if both the PS3 and the XBOX 360 keep getting the same games.
(I bought a PS3 because my little neighbor bought a 360 and it got busted pretty quickly with the RROD, I live in South America, so it took him quite a while to get it fixed by a official microsoft dealer. Oh yeah, and back then I thought FFXIII would be a PS exclusive ^^")
 

James Cassidy

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VZLANemesis said:
Remember that the Wii is the most sold console right now, it not only targets kids, it targets non-gamers. Moms, older people, the so called casual gamers.
Just little correction...
And yeah, how do you buy a system for the games, if both the PS3 and the XBOX 360 keep getting the same games.
(I bought a PS3 because my little neighbor bought a 360 and it got busted pretty quickly with the RROD, I live in South America, so it took him quite a while to get it fixed by a official microsoft dealer. Oh yeah, and back then I thought FFXIII would be a PS exclusive ^^")
I never said the Wii was only played by little kids. I said that was their demographic. That is what they were aiming for. The Wii is a family friendly system that has games anyone can play.

Xbox360 and PS3 can be played by little kids, but their demographic are more of the adult crowd.

I can make something that targets a certain demographic, but I didn't say that ONLY these people will like it. Games of any type have two demographics, Gamers and fans. A casual gamer will play the game if the game itself is interesting, but you also have the fans who like the series. You have to look at both demographics into order to make sales

Also further note
I want to add that with consoles the games play the major role. The reason why the xbox360 is winning is not because it has the better system schematics or best hardware, but because it has a huge library of games.

Let's go back to the last generation between the Xbox and Playstation 2 where the roles were reversed in the manner.

-Playstation 2 came out first and had a year of sales ahead of Xbox.
(sound familiar? 360 came out one year before PS3.)

-Xbox, in hardware terms, is vastly superior to the PS2.
(again sound familiar? PS3, in hardware terms, is superior to the xbox360.)

-PS2 is beating out the xbox because of it's huge game library
(again, Xbox360 is beating out the PS3 because of it's huge library of game)

If history dictates anything, then it is not the hardware, but the games. If a system has a great Library of game like the 360 does then it will do better on the market. Why pay more money for a console when I can get the exact same thing on a cheaper one? Possibly even more.

Same goes for the PS2 though the graphics are not equal to the xbox or game cube of last gen it still had the giant library.

This is what Sony fails at with the PS3. Their library is so small that they have nothing to offer it with the system thus the system is boring for the most part. Sure you can argue that "the PS3 has more exclusives and they have more high rated games" but I have never heard someone say "Oh I am going to buy a pS3 so I can play the awesome game "Flower."
 

lenin_117

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You *need* multiple consoles just for the competition to keep prices down, as well as some variety.
 

ThisNewGuy

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oliveira8 said:
ThisNewGuy said:
oliveira8 said:
Well..I have plenty of experience with just one sole competitor on a market and let me tell you...when theres only one calling the shots, nothing goes on.
Sigh, way to just ignore my post.

But game industry is different. A single console industry doesn't eliminate competition. A single console industry creates a way bigger competitive industry and a much more collaborative industry. It's not a "no competition" industry, it's a single console industry. The console will need to compete with itself for people to keep buying the console (just like Nintendo with their handhelds back in the days).
How do you know its different?

Ah exactly.
Because single competition means that there's no competition. Single console means there are competition, especially in software.
 

Scarecrow38

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Yes, it adds to competition and also the variety of games and target audiences. Not all of us want to race cars or collect stars/ rings or take down Russian Ultranationalists.
 

Laughing Man

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Mmm... I get the whole no competition no advancement point as it is usually a good point (look at Internet Explorer, before Firefox came along absolutely no work was being done on it whatsoever)
BUT, I doubt the console hardware would get stuck in any way. Seeing how consoles are basically (and I know its a bit too loose on the "basically, but go with it) a custom built pc. And PC hardware keeps improving simply because the market demands so. (I know the Pentium/AMD war is also a factor, but the fact is internet keeps growing, more data keeps needing to be stored and processed faster)
Every 3-4 years, the one console would get a "newer" version in order to keep up with technology.
Hmmm, well if you look at the PS3 the tech behind it is actually quite different to that of the PC. Infact in certain areas the PS3 will take the latest desktop CPUs and give them a bloody good hiding. Chances are that in a single console market you wouldn't get new tech like the cell. Instead you would simply get cut down knock off versions of PC hardware. Hell you get that even now but you still get some manufacturers trying to do something a bit different. Now weather that has worked or not is a hard one to say. The Cell in PS3 terms is nowhere near it's potential and chances are we won't see anything like its full power for another year or so. Infact the Cell is a good example of tech borrowing. MS actually took a section of the Cells central control CPU asked IBM to redevelop it for the 360 and then stuck used it to control their own triple power pc cores. If the cell hadn't been about chances are the tech would have come whole sale from the PC market.

Not really a valid argument, look at early PC gaming. Its pretty absurd to say that "there would be a genre to rule them all" (although fps seems to be king right now)
But yeah, consumers like me exist everywhere, I like original creative games, and those are the ones I buy, so yeah. The company that would look for that "non-targeted market" would be a winner (look at the wii) competition in software wouldn't be a factor.
I am not saying that a genre to rule them all would come about. The idea I was getting was that if only one console existed developers would have to improve their games to differentiate their product from someone elses. The fact is though that the market as it is now is ideal for developers to try something new but very few do. Yeah you get some indy stuff popping up here and there but the impression I was getting is single console = EA franchise that doesn't appear year after year and start to suck major ass from the first sequel onwards.

Dude, remember... why did Microsoft rush development of their new console and didn't even test it enough to notice critical hardware failure, they wanted to get their console as fast as they could to the market.
I understand your comments, and I really like the fact that someone finally made a post with a lot of thoughts put into it (and I really enjoy discussing like this) but I believe that in a world with the one RROD wouldn't ever had existed.
See this is why I hate what if debates, the only evidenace you have to draw on is what is out there. I actuall believe in a single console market the RROD would never have come about. Mainly because

a). No competition no need to rush development
b). No need to push tech in to a system that can't handle it just to take the fight to your competition. The main cause for the RROD.
c). No need to cut cost because let's face it you can charge what you want for the console and no one has a choice.

The point was to indicate that in a situation where MS, say, was the only competitor on the market and a fault as majorly ballsed up as the RROD were to occur the response would not be as much of a customer butt kissing fess as what MS has had to do.

The fact is the concept of a single console market is so difficult to predict. As it is we can only predict how it may go based on what the market is like now. If Sony for example had buttoned down the market at the end of the PSone market god only knows what it would be like now, very difficult to speculate on that one.

lol, ok, I'm old enough to remember some stuff, old consoles and shit, but in my country I don't think i ever saw a Master System.
Yeah, sad indeed.
Dunno what country you live in man, and to be honest I dunno how successful the master system was all I know is I bought one from Argos to replace my rapidly dying Spectrum +2A, (the bastard went on to live for another ten years.)