Multiverse Question

[LJJ1991]

Watch Noein, it'll explain everything.

 

[Agayek]

See, I understand, and I never said I blindly believed in the existence of multiverses. It's more of a "that'd be neat". I believe in it because I want it to be something more than what we're enduring right now.

And you say we need to question everything, yet you seem rather happy to not question this. See, if you have proof of something it's not being open to it's possibility, it's being proven that something exists. Being open means believing something is possible when there's no proof. So don't bring scientific rigour in this discussion, it's impossible to have any.

You want some reasons?
- Something that happened once can happen again.
- The universe is too big to ever know all of what's in it.

I actually question my beliefs regularly. As it stands, there's no evidence either way with regards to multiple universes. Thus, the most reasonable conclusion is that they don't exist. Certainly, I could be wrong, and if any evidence were to arrive, I would make the necessary changes to my stance.

Being open to the possibility does not mean believing in something for the sake of believing in it. It means being aware that it's possible. I am well aware that modern science doesn't know everything, and as such literally anything is possible.

Possibility does not imply plausibility though. While the existence multiple distinct universes is very possible, it's not very plausible. There has never been any indication of its existence, throughout the entirety of human history. It's a neat idea, but there's absolutely nothing to support it.

It's roughly analogous to believing in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or that that grilled cheese sandwich with the Virgin Mary's face on it is holy. You believe it because you want it to be true, not because there's any logical basis for it, and in doing so you do yourself a grave disservice.

By all means, keep the nifty ideas in mind, but know the difference between fact and fiction, and be able to tell the two apart.

As for your reasons: While the latter is completely irrelevant, the former is actually fairly reasonable. There's a minor logical fallacy in that assuming because something happened once means it will happen again, but that's merely a matter of probabilities. That gets more into semantics than anything else though, so I'll leave it there.

You assume Occam's razor has always been correct. It is not, even in science. Its a rule of thumb, not some ironclad law. Hell, DNA was called bullshit by Occam's razor in favor of proteins. Atomic theory was at first called bullshit by Occams razor because of "tny invisible particles." Occamms razor called a lot of things complete bullshit.

I'm not assuming anything. I know that Occam's Razor is not always correct. I've seen it myself in action. All I'm saying is that Occam's Razor is a good rule of thumb, and by it, multiple universes most likely do not exist.

I fully acknowledge the possibility that it could be wrong, and if any evidence were to arise, I would evaluate it and change my stance accordingly. Until then, I'm going with the most reasonable conclusion.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Ok first of the concept is purely theoretical, secondly you're assuming it's even possible to even travel between universes, and thirdly even if it was according to the theory there are literally an infinite number of alternate universes, the odds of alternate you crossing over to this one are infinitesimal.

 

[randomsix]

Clegane]

So this has been making me scratch my head. Y'know how there is supposedly an infinite number of parallel universes with their own realities? Shouldn't that mean that there is a universe in which that version of me somehow travels to this universe at this exact moment in time and appears right next to me? My brain really hurts!

I have a friend who with a PHD in physics who insists there are only 3 that feed into each other in a nether ending cycle.

He tried to explain it to me, going on about the big bang, Critical Load and Bultzmans constant but I didn't care enough to listen.

Sounds like he either doesn't know what he's talking about, or he's talking about M-Theory.
Could be both.
In any case, I don't know a lot about M-Theory but that your anecdote sounds familiar.

In any case: here's another kind of multiverse predicted by quantum theory, which is not controversial.

With quantum interactions and fluctuations, every reaction which conserves quantum properties has a nonzero probability. After the heat death of this universe, where the amount of space approaches infinity, the probability of everything happening somewhere approaches 1. This means it happens.

Quantum predicts that it is possible for another Big Bang to spontaneously happen as long as half the matter produced is antimatter. If enough matter/antimatter is produced, then it is possible for, after it all expands, the result to resemble a universe like ours. Repeat ad infinitum.

 

[Darth_Dude]

Ah the whole Multiverse thing is bullshit mate, don't get worked up about it.

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

SNIP

We'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that, shall we?

 

[randomsix]

Clegane]le Gran snip

I'm pretty sue he does know what he's talking about he has a PHD in Theoretical Physics... more likely I'm no describing it well... OR...

Or M-Theory. I'm guessing M-Theory if its theoretical physics.

 

[Twilight_guy]

You can't reach parallel universes. It's a fundamental law of the theorem. Take heart in the fact that in one of those universe a parallel you tired and failed though.

 

[crudus]

So this has been making me scratch my head. Y'know how there is supposedly an infinite number of parallel universes with their own realities? Shouldn't that mean that there is a universe in which that version of me somehow travels to this universe at this exact moment in time and appears right next to me? My brain really hurts!

Spoiler: First, watch these videos. This is just to get us on the same thought train

Spoiler: Ok, that was good times. That should have answered your question, but if not...

Now, I am not sure what you are going for. When you think of the multi-verse you probably are thinking of the tenth dimension(as defined in the videos I provided). The problem is things only live in the first 3-4 dimensions. The other 6-7 are just variations of the 3rd and 4th dimensions. The problem being that you would need to travel in the 11th dimension to do what you are talking about. Since you have been paying attention, there is no 11th dimension.

Yes, this is abstract and highly theoretical stuff.

That part of your statement is blatantly untrue. I'm not going to sit here and list off every possible shred of evidence I can come up with (I doubt I'm even familiar with half of them), but I suggest you research some of the evidence. Right now, it's looking like it's actually a rather probable theory.

A good portion of it is in integrals that start out as long as my arm and are meaningless to someone with less than 8-10 years of undergrad and grad school (and probably beyond) level math under their belt.

Clegane]

I'm pretty sue he does know what he's talking about he has a PHD in Theoretical Physics... more likely I'm no describing it well... OR...

Well, I think it was Feynman who said something to the effect of "if you understand quantum physics, you don't". I wouldn't be at all surprised if it can apply to the multiverse and things like M-theory too.

 

[Double A]

Do you have a TARDIS? No? So stop worrying about it.

Me, on the other hand...

 

[GaltarDude1138]

So there's probably an alternate universe where my alternate person has stunning good looks, above-average grades, a million dollars and a million hot women all clawing at him?

Good to know there's at least one lucky sonofabitch with my persona out there...

OT: Who the hell knows, it's all theoretical anyways. But like the above points out, it's nice to know that it's always possible.

Like extraterrestrials. /thread

 

[TheVioletBandit]

So this has been making me scratch my head. Y'know how there is supposedly an infinite number of parallel universes with their own realities? Shouldn't that mean that there is a universe in which that version of me somehow travels to this universe at this exact moment in time and appears right next to me? My brain really hurts!

Yeah I often wondered that too. If there are an infinite number of universes with every possible outcome, then your scenario should be happening constantly. That seems to be one of the loopholes in the theory...

The thing is, it could be happening right now but with an infinite number of universes there are an infinite number of other universes for said event to be happening within. Sure, an alternate you could have just stepped through the portal and could have just met a you very similar to the current you but it could be a you who lives on the other side of the planet or a you who is only 0.000001% different to the you who just posted this. Infinite possibilities equate to infinite outcomes. The odds of one of them involving the you who is conscious of being you in this universe are extremely long. Of course it could happen but you'd have a much better chance of hitting several lotteries at the same time. All things are possible but it's the probability that'll bite you in the ass.

The probability takes care of itself whenever you start talking about an infinite number, If their are an "infinite" number of universes then everything has to happen, and that makes the probability 100%. So if the theory were true the way he described it then the alternate hims (trying to pluralize him) that travel to other universes would have to go to every alternate him in every alternate universe including to himself in this universe.

 

[TheVioletBandit]

You can't reach parallel universes. It's a fundamental law of the theorem. Take heart in the fact that in one of those universe a parallel you tired and failed though.

You can't reach parallel universes. It's a fundamental law of the theorem. Take heart in the fact that in one of those universe a parallel you tired and failed though.

It is theoretically possible to enter a black hole and by avoiding the singularity then enter into and be expelled from a white hole into another universe.

 

[FluxCapacitor]

The whole multiverse thing is almost certainly bullshit. The whole concept is incredibly silly, with no basis in fact, theory or even logic.

SNIP

And you're a theoretical physicist, or somehow qualified to dismiss the work of physicists? No, I thought not.

A present for Agayek and others demanding evidence:

A relatively accessible source:
http://www.nature.com/scientificamerican/journal/v288/n5/pdf/scientificamerican0503-40.pdf

More technical:
http://lanl.arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0905/0905.2182v2.pdf

Quoting because randomsix is the only one yet to acknowledge that there is a HUGE body of theoretical physics behind the "many worlds interpretation". And surprise surprise, Agayek doesn't wanna argue this with someone who knows what they're talking about.

Look into a dude named Hugh Everett, he was basically laughed out of academia when he came up with the idea, but it has become increasingly popular in physics circles in the decades since. That's right Agayek, physicists have been debating this for DECADES. Scientists don't do that for things with "no basis in fact, theory or even logic". You can choose not to be swayed by it, it's certainly not a formal theory so much as it is an interpretation of quantum theory - but please don't declare it to be non-science. You don't know what you're talking about.

Also, just offhand - you know that there are different degrees of infinity, right? For example, infinity squared (aleph 2) is provably larger than infinity. Thus, Agayek, your counterexample falls apart when you realise that the number of instances where any given thing occurs is dwarfed by the infinite number of instances where it doesn't.

 

[Blaze the Dragon]

Damn, I was just about to contribute that infinite probability thing to the thread. Ah well, I'll do it anyways.

But yeah, I'm fine with Multiverse theory, I can see it's reasoning and it seems fine enough that there are more universes than the one we got. It's just like aliens, we only know about ourselves, but it's wholly possible that there's another race out there somewhere, but if you throw in an infinite number of universes, then it just all falls apart. Thanks to the randomness of quantum mechanics and silliness like that, literally anything is possible. All my electrons could instantly decide to be on the other side of the galaxy right now. I could suddenly appear in your house, your computer screen could rearrange all of its atoms into a lion. Now, is any of that going to actually happen? probably not, but there's a chance that it will. A very small chance, but if you stood around for an infinite amount of time, then eventually it technically would. The other way to see the outcome of something like this, is to run an infinite amount of trials simultaneously, and therefore have every result happen at the same time. Infinite universes grants this possibility, and therefore leads to it's own demise. Even if something is flat-out impossible, it can still technically happen, and with infinite universes, technically it has already happened, and therefore there are an infinite amount of universe where an infinite amount of people have decided to travel to an infinite amount of different universes at every point in time and space in every universe. Even if there's a universe that has been "untainted" Technically eventually someone will travel to it, which means an infinite amount of someones will travel to it at every time. basically everything gets divided by zero and everybody dies in a singularity.

So uh, how about we just stick with the one we got for now and not worry about that for another few millennia.

 

[Richardplex]

You can't reach parallel universes. It's a fundamental law of the theorem. Take heart in the fact that in one of those universe a parallel you tired and failed though.

You can't reach parallel universes. It's a fundamental law of the theorem. Take heart in the fact that in one of those universe a parallel you tired and failed though.

It is theoretically possible to enter a black hole and by avoiding the singularity then enter into and be expelled from a white hole into another universe.

Assuming black holes work like that, that's also one of multiple theories of how the inside of a black hole works. The singularity part and inherent qualities of it being non-understandable makes it a wee bit tricky to back up theories like that.

 

[Redworld13]

Whoa, im not going to give my opinion on any of this, but this is why i love the escapists forums. I love all you guys/girls!

 

[chowderface]

I think the problem with this question is that the multiverse theory is poorly understood by the layman, and someone who's studied this shit their entire life has a better idea of exactly what it all means than you or I.

 

[Twilight_guy]

You can't reach parallel universes. It's a fundamental law of the theorem. Take heart in the fact that in one of those universe a parallel you tired and failed though.

You can't reach parallel universes. It's a fundamental law of the theorem. Take heart in the fact that in one of those universe a parallel you tired and failed though.

It is theoretically possible to enter a black hole and by avoiding the singularity then enter into and be expelled from a white hole into another universe.

Okay, you go jump in that black hole. Have fun with relativity and ensuing time dilation causing you to take millions of years to pass through. Also, have fun traveling faster then light to get out.