Murdering of innocents in video games (Morality topic, nothing to do with gaming)

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Vampire cat

Apocalypse Meow
Apr 21, 2010
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Being a villain, killing civies is part of my daily life. Get the mail. Kill an elderly woman. Have dinner. Kill the kid next door for being annoying. Watch some TV. Do some drive-by shootings in my hover-craft. You know, all that noise.

I don't see the problem tho. There are more than enough (and when I say more, I do really mean more) games where you are the good guy, not hurting a fly that hasn't previously raped someone and so on, so bring on the nastiness. Then again, there are plenty of games that let you be evil too... What we need is a game where you do nothing. You middle ground. Sit at home and watch TV, have dinner, take a shower, go to bed. That. Would. Be. Brilliant.

...

What do you mean that already exists?!
 

BiggityB05

New member
Sep 29, 2009
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Who cares? I murder cops and innocent civilians on GTA all the time, do I feel bad about it? No, all they are are 1's and 0's.
 

Cid Silverwing

Paladin of The Light
Jul 27, 2008
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Restrict yourself to moral-choice games. The only solution for you with the level of hypersensitivity you seem to be displaying.

Games are virtual entertainment. Fiction =/= reality.
 

Cpu46

Gloria ex machina
Sep 21, 2009
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Digi7 said:
Now, what are your views? Are you okay with killing civilians, if it is central to the story? Are you just as disgusted and angered as I am with our games industry, and it's community who will not hear a word against it?
I for one, am not disgusted with the games industry. Like it was noted earlier games are an outlet for impulses that we never would do in real life. Violence sells for this very reason. Now how it affects me personally is a different matter.

I played Prototype as well. And i have noticed that the characters personality tends to rub off on me while I am playing the game. Mercer's moral void made accidentally killing the civilians not difficult at all, I even consumed them for the benefits without batting an eye. Contrast this with No Russian in MW2. The scene did impact me, I was empathetic for the representations of normal people. The only times i shot were when the person was obviously not going to make it. While Mercer had a set personality and morals the CIA agent in MW2 was more of a blank slate that allowed me to project a bit of my own morals and personality into him.
 

II2

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Mar 13, 2010
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If you want a interesting challenge, try playing Prototype with the intent of minimizing "collateral damage"...

Digi7 said:
A couple of hours later though I was running through a crowded street with my claws out. I turned to look at something, and as I did I accidentally hit the mouse button, and I hacked a girl in half. I stood there and looked at her dead face and mutilated body. This was meant to represent a person who lived and breathed, had a loving family, partner and maybe even children. She had hopes and dreams. Now she was gone. I was horrified at what I had done.
I dunno, man. Smart money's says the pixels on the screen didn't have too many "life" ambitions other than fulfilling the binary script-states of "walk around, just chillin'" or "run around, terrified".

Digi7 said:
I have always been one to be very empathetic and in touch with his emotions (I'm an artist, and an artists greatest tools are his emotions), but I'm far from delicate. The murdering of innocents, however, is too much. It is beyond my capacity to understand why any would want to willingly DESIGN this into their game. They painstakingly rendered every hacked off limb and disemboweled corpse, and for what? So some psychopath can get off on it? For 'realism' and 'grittiness'?
I'm an artist too! Hi-5z! :)

I'm tempted to go on at length about how conflict is the foundation of both rapture and despair in art, typically emphasized through time tested amplification-through-violence (depicted or implied) in the majority of art: cave paintings, myths, written works, entertainment and all media prevailing through human "civilization", but all that kinda describes it by itself.

As for gore, it can be profound - look at LIMBO, or Bioshock; it's an essential element of the dread atmosphere. In Fallout the violence has always been so over the top, it's just pulp-comic funny, and suits the dark radiation-burn humor excellently. In Manhunt 2 (uncensored), it's pretty much pornographic in that it exists simply for depraved titillation.

I think all of those serve their intended purpose admirably. That said, I think a reasonable compromise would be to remove or minimize many of the gore effects as a toggle in the options menu to allow the consumer to customize their experience to their respective tastes and sensitivities. However, that leads me to my next point...

Nobody is going to be playing Manhunt 2 if they're not looking for a horrifically violent, nauseating experience, which in turn brings me to the point where I have to more adamantly disagree with you:

Putting a committee or censor board or "watchdog" group in power is unavoidably stupid. To do so is literally to say, "I/We do not believe I/We am/are capable of making rational choices regarding what media I choose to observe: But YOU are."

Even if is not your intent to say that, you, as an artist, are advocating artistic censorship that closes doors for you and your community of peers. Even if you don't consider Manhunt 2 (as a complete package) to be art, do you think of the people on the staff as artists?

- Level Design
- Lead Artist
- Character Design
- Lead Environment Artist
- Animators
- Audio Design
- Music
- Writers
- Cut Scene Animation
- Graphic Design
- Motion Capture: Cast, Stunt Coordinator, Stunts, Motion Capture Director
- Voiceover Talent

(All positions selected from the Manhunt 2 Credits list)

Your problem is not with the content of games or media, but the aspects of human nature that begs them to be there and votes for their appearance with their $s. If you want to prop up a highly subjective champion of morality to interfere with the free choices people want to make... Good luck to you, I guess - you'll bloody need it!

But you're not going to make the world a better place, nor beat human nature and you're not going to make any friends as the dissolution of outmoded puritanical morality continues largely unfettered, eroding in waves of new generations of minds awash in information.

*looks down and notices the soapbox*
 

Sonic Doctor

Time Lord / Whack-A-Newbie!
Jan 9, 2010
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Digi7 said:
Seriously, it is a game. Of course in real life I wouldn't go around killing people. This is the whole problem I have with the people that have been attacking the games industry, trying to censor it and remove things they don't like from the market. It is this wrong mentality that these people have when it comes to their ideas that games make people violent and make them go out and kill people.

When I played Fable 2, if I got bored, I sometimes would just run around slicing up, shooting, and incinerating people with fireballs. Anybody in my sight felt the wrath of my boredom.

Because I did that, doesn't mean that I would do that in real life. I won't go cutting and shooting people and then do the same to the law enforcement that showed up.

The reason is I know one is a game and the other isn't. Games let you do things that you can't do in real life. Games don't have real life consequences, so people can release any anger or other feelings into a game, that way nobody else is hurt when someone goes on a bloody rampage, it is just a bunch of silly little NPCs that get hurt. The only way this would come back to hurt us is if something like in Doomsday Arcade happened, the NPCs and characters come to life and take revenge.

Of course that would never happen..... What! Mario, what are you doing, no, put the fire flower down. Nooooooooooo! Please don.......
 

Sonic Doctor

Time Lord / Whack-A-Newbie!
Jan 9, 2010
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Sorry, double post. I need to do an overhaul on my computer. The thing is acting wonky. It is so slow that it won't show that I posted something unless I post it a second time. No matter how many times I refresh the page or exit Firefox.
 

Underground Man

New member
Sep 20, 2010
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What the market wants, the market gets, and the market wants violence and nudity.

It's just good business sense.
 
Sep 9, 2010
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You have a good point but in a way we all have different walls put up in our minds. Some of us say "its just a character model" some dont think at all. It is however truly horrifying when in game theres a developed characted that you've grown close to and then are forced to kill. That however is meant to produce that effect.
I deal with these "tragedies of the soul" the same way i do everything else. Except it, realize theres nothing i can do about it, and move on
 

Moosh50

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Oct 19, 2008
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So it was horrible when you accidently killed a young girl, but not when you slaughtered/watched Alex slaughter several soldiers, who were all hardworking men trying to provide for their families? So it's ok to kill 'bad people' in games but when you sniff an 'innocent' suddenly it gets too violent and scary and boo-hoo there's a boogeyman under the bed.

Try the game again after your balls drop.
 

DarthFennec

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May 27, 2010
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Most of the things I do in games, I wouldn't think of doing irl. It's just a game, the girl you just sliced open is just a mesh with a blood texture that just experienced a slay event, you didn't actually kill a real person though. You know how sometimes it's fun to play paintball against your friends, but you would never go out and shoot at each other with real guns? That's a lot like what this is. There is an infinite difference between playing a game and doing any of that in real life, and I think that's something that a lot of the anti-gaming community doesn't understand. Games, like movies, are built to be an escape from reality, and doing morally questionable things in a game is always going to lower your chances of doing it in reality, if you had any chances of that in the first place. That's what I think.
 

crimsonshrouds

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Mar 23, 2009
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considering i usually play the good guy in games with moral choices i might be inclined to agree with you. But i realize that games are a bunch of ones and zeros so i have to disagree.
 
Apr 29, 2010
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In my mind, you're taking this too far. It's just a video game. The actions you partake in won't translate into real life. A person playing Grand Theft Auto 4 won't go out on a killing spree, unless there were previous problems. Serious problems. Most people know it's just fiction, and that doing it in real life is wrong. But, if it bothers you that much, then just don't play them. However, just because you can't does not mean everyone should follow your example. We don't all have the same thoughts and opinions.
 

default

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Apr 25, 2009
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Moosh50 said:
So it was horrible when you accidently killed a young girl, but not when you slaughtered/watched Alex slaughter several soldiers, who were all hardworking men trying to provide for their families? So it's ok to kill 'bad people' in games but when you sniff an 'innocent' suddenly it gets too violent and scary and boo-hoo there's a boogeyman under the bed.

Try the game again after your balls drop.
Just take off your arrogant douchebag nerd hat for a second and have a read of the points I'm making.

Yes, I felt the same for the police officers and soldiers I killed, but they were a necessary loss. I know and accept that, it's part of the story and the experience. They knew what they were getting into.

But it is not right to murder innocent bystanders just for fun, EVEN IN A GAME.

Just think how the hell would you feel if some dude jumped from the sky and ripped your head off coz he needed some health?
 

default

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Apr 25, 2009
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archvile93 said:
Digi7 said:
You're way too sensitive. Also if we want to play games that have more violence than your comfortable with, what right do you or the government have in stopping me so long as no one is being killed, by which I mean I could see your argument if somebody was going to a roman style gladiator match instead of playing a game. If you can't handle it that's fine, but don't tell me I can't handle it and take it away from me. Besides, while playing aggressive games does stimulate aggression, there is no evidence that it will cause you to go from sane and normal one minute to heartless killer the next. Maybe you'll get angry at somebody more easily but I doubt you'll stab them, and if you do you probably were unstable to begin with. You are also wrong, studies show that just witnessing violence (Say Iron man beating the crap out of some bad guys) also stimulates aggressive responses even if you did not interact with it.

An analagy: how would you like it if I said your art was innappropriate and had the government come in and burn it so no one would see it and get bad ideas?

Edit: I probably shouldn't have quoted you OP, for that I apoligize. However this is an important topic to me and I wanted to be sure you actually read what I have to say.
Thankyou, I did read it.

I never wanted to take that experience away from you or anyone, mate. You have the God-given right to do whatever the hell you like on this earth. I'm not going to labour my point any more, though. You can watch, play, read, create, say or do whatever you want.

Ahh, I loved that Iron Man scene. Great hate-mongering. Didn't you feel so satisfied when he shot all the terrorists in the face after what they did? Isn't storytelling powerful? That is related to the points I'm making.