Murders and Rapes 500 ? Sentenced to House Arrest

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Oh, it's you again with your "controversial" threads based on really obvious shit. Everyone and their dog knows about My Lai

That would explain why none of the 37 people I asked had any idea--maybe they weren't "everyone and their dog".

Good contribution to the discussion.

 

[redisforever]

I have read about this before, and it was just as horrifying reading about it then as it is now. If you don't have the stomach for the images, don't look up the wikipedia article, as it doesn't do what the OP kindly did, which was hide them until you click.

The problem is that despite the fact that the media reports on this kind of stuff all the time, it still happens. People who do this seem to have no shame, and no thoughts about what this does to anyone who witnesses this or survives.

 

[dobahci]

I'm honestly not sure if Buffalo and Rochester were valid military targets at the time. But, assuming they did have significant military importance, as did Hiroshima while the US might CLAIM they are warcrimes, they would not have been war crimes under the current legal definition.

The thing is, how far do you take that? Suppose a target has significant military significance but its destruction would result in 10 civilian deaths. Would you consider that an acceptable amount of collateral damage? Most people would say yes.

How about if we change that number to 1,000 civilians? How about 10,000?

How about 1,000,000?

Where do you draw the line where you say that too many civilians have died and that one can no longer defend the event despite it being a strategic military target? Surely there must be some stopping point.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

However, that STILL isn't an example of an officer saying "go out and kill all the civilians" and the soldiers obeying.

So soldiers are mindless psychopaths and murderers.

Glad we settled that.

 

[dyre]

Oh, it's you again with your "controversial" threads based on really obvious shit. Everyone and their dog knows about My Lai

That would explain why none of the 37 people I asked had any idea--maybe they weren't "everyone and their dog".

Good contribution to the discussion.

I suppose I shouldn't underestimate the ignorance of the average human being. They probably haven't heard of the Armenian Genocide either. However, everyone who cares about this sort of thing knows about My Lai.

What do you get out of this thread anyway? Are you planning to raise money to build a time machine to go back 40 years to reform the Vietnam-era military justice system?

 

[Joshey Woshey]

It's nice to know Invisible Children are making threads on this forum. Hi guys.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

What do you get out of this thread anyway? Are you planning to raise money to build a time machine to go back 40 years to reform the Vietnam-era military justice system?

Pretty sure the victims, their families and the survivors deserve to be remembered by more than they are and the world needs to always remember mistakes and atrocities like this. Ever heard of learning from the past?

Or is "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" not something you care for?

Shut down the museums, people! Dyre doesn't have a time-machine so who cares what happened in the past.

 

[dyre]

What do you get out of this thread anyway? Are you planning to raise money to build a time machine to go back 40 years to reform the Vietnam-era military justice system?

Pretty sure the victims, their families and the survivors deserve to be remembered by more than they are and the world needs to always remember mistakes and atrocities like this. Ever heard of learning from the past?

Or is "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" not something you care for?

Shut down the museums, people! Dyre doesn't have a time-machine so who cares what happened in the past.

Do you have a rational argument, or are you just going for the emotional appeal? "Deserve to be remembered?" Are you aware of how much bad shit happens everyday? And these people are especially worthy of being remembered (on an Escapist thread no less) because....? Get off your high horse. You just like the attention you're getting from these sensationalist threads. It feels good, doesn't it?

And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" is a ridiculous expression, because people will repeat the past anyway. More importantly, it's completely irrelevant because the military justice system has been reformed to make sure this specific sort of "past" isn't repeated.

But if you're raising money to make a My Lai museum exhibit, you should have just said so!

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" is a ridiculous expression, because people will repeat the past anyway.

Now that's one hell of a positive attitude!

Game's over, guys. Stop trying. We're gonna fuck it all up again anyway.

 

[Sansha]

War, War never changes.

Soldiers cannot be held accountable unless they act outside of orders. They are in no position to say no or reject as that would land them in prison. Thus only officers are accountable for such things. It's horrible and the people who did it are despicable. But you as a civilian who was not there is in no position to judge at all. Ive never seen combat or been in a war as savage is Vietnam, hopefully I never will be. But I can't judge them as theres so many factors we cannot understand or see.

You weren't in WWII, so we can't judge the actions of Nazi death camp guards, yeah? After all, you've "never seen combat or been in a war as savage is Vietnam" and you can't judge because "theres so many factors we cannot understand or see."

If it's understandable why a group of men would follow orders to utterly destroy a village and brutally murder every single man, woman and child there, going so far as to mutilate some of them, so to is it understandable that some guys followed orders and forced Jews into the ovens.

No. Just no. If someone says "hey, you should go slaughter those kids," you take a fucking second to rethink that.

For fuck's sake, what's wrong with you? Like, your head?

Why are you so outraged over something that happened 44 years ago, under an entirely different administration, with entirely different societies and cultures? No, what happened isn't excusable, but what happened happened, and the people responsible were punished, however unjustly. Welcome to reality.

Also, I don't like how the soldiers in the video are talking shit about the people they're killing, but unfortunately that's part of their lives. When you're actually in such a horrific combat zone, you come up with ways of dealing with it so as to avoid turning into an emotionally unstable individual riddled with PTSD. They have a job to do like anyone else.
And no, you don't fucking know what that's like, so don't pass judgement on those men. They had no reasonable way to discern there were children in that van.
Fleeing, wounded combatants are fair targets as allowing their escape can potentially have them calling in reinforcements or giving away intelligence about their enemy. Which you simply can't allow because you think they're not a direct threat due to being wounded and fleeing.

Have you been living under a rock your entire life and have only just realized that there are people in this world who are monstrous human beings who prey on the weak, or that horrible, atrocious things happen during war, or that people do make mistakes?
Do you ever hear on the news or viral videos when the military performs a mission perfectly, doing nothing wrong and contributing positive to their cause? Of course you don't.

And goddamn, don't say 'I hate Americans' again, because I've seen the same shit out of England, Spain, Germany, Canada, Australia, China, Russia - I could go on. The same 'hurhur kill some terrorists woo' attitudes, the same atrocities and the same total bastards in charge. America is the one you hear about the most because America is a topical thing to hear about in modern times, their activities are well-known and sell ratings for newscasters, and they're the ones with the majority shareholding of 'Stomping around other people's countries'.

Are they wrong? Yes. Is this shit inexcusable? Absolutely.

Is this the constant reality of human nature, throughout our entire history from the days we learned how to stand upright and thwack each other with animal bones and rocks? You better believe it.
If you wanna get pissed off about all this stuff, that's fine, but please do something about it other than ***** on the internet because you sound like a bleeding-heart hippie lunatic and not a damn thing makes sense because you're focusing on how horrid it is that innocent people are dying instead of trying to take a different perspective on WHY these things happen in the first place.

REALITY:
1. War.
2. People make mistakes.
3. There are people in the world who enjoy bringing misery and suffering unto others.

Grow up and deal.

And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" is a ridiculous expression, because people will repeat the past anyway.

Now that's one hell of a positive attitude!

Game's over, guys. Stop trying. We're gonna fuck it all up again anyway.

This is why we can't take you seriously. You don't have a logical standpoint or a compelling argument. You have frustrated rage at the actions of others, you're dripping with sarcasm and general dismissal of any argument put forward toward you.
'Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong because LOOK AT THE DEAD CHILDREN' is not an argument.

 

[blizzaradragon]

I don't know about where you live, but where I'm from you can talk to pretty much anyone with a high school education and they'll know about this. I always thought it was pretty common knowledge, especially given the severity of the Vietnam War.

As brutal as it is though, the plain and simple fact is that it was war. War sucks and people die during war, but unless you have a way to make every single nation leader on Earth to sit in a drum circle and sing Kumbaya then war is still going to happen. Civilians will be unintentionally targeted, soldiers will feel justified, people on the sidelines or at home will say it's an atrocity, officers will defend their soldiers' actions. In a combat zone, you don't always have the luxury of making sure every person who gets killed is someone who volunteered to be in combat, especially in populated areas.

Massacres like that have already been dealt with and laws have been changed so they don't happen again, so forgive me if I don't see the point of this thread...

 

[dyre]

And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" is a ridiculous expression, because people will repeat the past anyway.

Now that's one hell of a positive attitude!

Game's over, guys. Stop trying. We're gonna fuck it all up again anyway.

I knew you'd cherry pick that line! It's too tough to respond to actual arguments, so you have to resort to pathos-type arguments. Still, I can't help but feel a little sorry for someone who is only capable of using emotional rhetoric, not logic, so I'll leave you alone to your little ramblings.

But a word of advice? Choose something more recent. Your outrage at a four decade old event shows a tremendous ignorance of current events.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

When you're actually in such a horrific combat zone, you come up with ways of dealing with it so as to avoid turning into an emotionally unstable individual riddled with PTSD. They have a job to do like anyone else.

Or, you know, don't join the armed forces, don't get sent into other people's countries and homes, don't be given orders to murder civilians, don't follow said orders, and you won't need to call them names and laugh at them while they die to avoid going insane.

I think my option works out the best for all involved.

 

[dobahci]

Soldiers cannot be held accountable unless they act outside of orders. They are in no position to say no or reject as that would land them in prison. Thus only officers are accountable for such things. It's horrible and the people who did it are despicable. But you as a civilian who was not there is in no position to judge at all. Ive never seen combat or been in a war as savage is Vietnam, hopefully I never will be. But I can't judge them as theres so many factors we cannot understand or see.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to mention the Milgram Experiment.

It's relevant. Sort of.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" is a ridiculous expression, because people will repeat the past anyway.

Now that's one hell of a positive attitude!

Game's over, guys. Stop trying. We're gonna fuck it all up again anyway.

I knew you'd cherry pick that line! It's too tough to respond to actual arguments, so you have to resort to pathos-type arguments. Still, I can't help but feel a little sorry for someone who is only capable of using emotional rhetoric, not logic, so I'll leave you alone to your little ramblings.

But a word of advice? Choose something more recent. Your outrage at a four decade old event shows a tremendous ignorance of current events.

Hey, if you think we are just going to repeat the past and fuck it all up again, who am I to argue? I'm sure George Santayana--the man who came up with that line you dismissed as "ridiculous", and who was awarded the Royal Society of Literature Benson Medal and the Columbia University Butler Gold Medal, as well as receiving an honorary degree from the University of Wisconsin--just needed someone to tell him how stupid trying to learn from the past is.

 

[dyre]

And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" is a ridiculous expression, because people will repeat the past anyway.

Now that's one hell of a positive attitude!

Game's over, guys. Stop trying. We're gonna fuck it all up again anyway.

I knew you'd cherry pick that line! It's too tough to respond to actual arguments, so you have to resort to pathos-type arguments. Still, I can't help but feel a little sorry for someone who is only capable of using emotional rhetoric, not logic, so I'll leave you alone to your little ramblings.

But a word of advice? Choose something more recent. Your outrage at a four decade old event shows a tremendous ignorance of current events.

Hey, if you think we are just going to repeat the past and fuck it all up again, who am I to argue? I'm sure George Santayana--the man who came up with that line you dismissed as "ridiculous", and who was awarded the Royal Society of Literature Benson Medal and the Columbia University Butler Gold Medal, as well as receiving an honorary degree from the University of Wisconsin--just needed someone to tell him how stupid trying to learn from the past is.

Hehe, that's cute. Don't worry, you'll probably learn to argue more effectively sometime in your life. When you get to high school, I'd recommend signing up for your school's debate team. It'll help you argue better, and you'll probably get a kick out of debating the issues anyway.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" is a ridiculous expression, because people will repeat the past anyway.

Now that's one hell of a positive attitude!

Game's over, guys. Stop trying. We're gonna fuck it all up again anyway.

I knew you'd cherry pick that line! It's too tough to respond to actual arguments, so you have to resort to pathos-type arguments. Still, I can't help but feel a little sorry for someone who is only capable of using emotional rhetoric, not logic, so I'll leave you alone to your little ramblings.

But a word of advice? Choose something more recent. Your outrage at a four decade old event shows a tremendous ignorance of current events.

Hey, if you think we are just going to repeat the past and fuck it all up again, who am I to argue? I'm sure George Santayana--the man who came up with that line you dismissed as "ridiculous", and who was awarded the Royal Society of Literature Benson Medal and the Columbia University Butler Gold Medal, as well as receiving an honorary degree from the University of Wisconsin--just needed someone to tell him how stupid trying to learn from the past is.

Hehe, that's cute. Don't worry, you'll probably learn to argue more effectively sometime in your life. When you get to high school, I'd recommend signing up for your school's debate team. It'll help you argue better, and you'll probably get a kick out of debating the issues anyway.

Implying I didn't go to high school is a pretty damn intelligent retort.

But I'm glad you think I'm cute.

 

[dyre]

And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" is a ridiculous expression, because people will repeat the past anyway.

Now that's one hell of a positive attitude!

Game's over, guys. Stop trying. We're gonna fuck it all up again anyway.

I knew you'd cherry pick that line! It's too tough to respond to actual arguments, so you have to resort to pathos-type arguments. Still, I can't help but feel a little sorry for someone who is only capable of using emotional rhetoric, not logic, so I'll leave you alone to your little ramblings.

But a word of advice? Choose something more recent. Your outrage at a four decade old event shows a tremendous ignorance of current events.

Hey, if you think we are just going to repeat the past and fuck it all up again, who am I to argue? I'm sure George Santayana--the man who came up with that line you dismissed as "ridiculous", and who was awarded the Royal Society of Literature Benson Medal and the Columbia University Butler Gold Medal, as well as receiving an honorary degree from the University of Wisconsin--just needed someone to tell him how stupid trying to learn from the past is.

Hehe, that's cute. Don't worry, you'll probably learn to argue more effectively sometime in your life. When you get to high school, I'd recommend signing up for your school's debate team. It'll help you argue better, and you'll probably get a kick out of debating the issues anyway.

Implying I didn't go to high school is a pretty damn intelligent retort.

But I'm glad you think I'm cute.

Well, I don't know if you're cute. Maybe you are, but I can't be sure, really. But your arguments are cute

I'm glad you caught on to that jab about the high school thing though. I was a little worried about your reading comprehension, but it appears that my concerns are unfounded, and rather than accidentally misreading people's arguments, you intentionally misinterpret them. Clever, clever...

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

Well you know what they say about love and war.

The system is broken.

The system needs repair.

If not for the justice of victims past, then for victims future--no doubt there will be many.

This is one of the most overidealistic mantras I've ever read

The world by nature is chaotic, justice as a concept is flawed. A man kills another man in cold blood and is sentenced to death. That's justice. A man kills two men, and what the hell can you do about it? How do you punish someone when their crimes outweigh their worth, and what position are you in to do so or judge what a man's worth is to begin with?

How can a country that sends an army of people overseas to kill other people justify punishment under its own jurisdiction of that exact action just done in the not exactly ideal way?

And at the end of this, what does punishment solve if the "crime" isn't undoable?

Any system is broken by design. If reality functioned on a "system" that was so conducive to the trite and subjective matter of human morality then nobody would have even thought to establish one.

Stop trying to find solutions that aren't there and try to solve the problems that can be solved. I heard that ozones is sick or something.