Music Theory- The basics updated V7

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Ytmh

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zen5887 said:
How often do tone clusters sound good? And I did say "most likely fall into some kind of rule" meaning that there are exceptions.
Er, often enough to be one of the most used technical aspects of pretty much everything since Cowell in the 20th century. Then again since all that would be an "exception," including millions of people and thousands upon thousands of pieces. . .

Generalizations are fun!
 

zen5887

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Ytmh said:
zen5887 said:
How often do tone clusters sound good? And I did say "most likely fall into some kind of rule" meaning that there are exceptions.
Er, often enough to be one of the most used technical aspects of pretty much everything since Cowell in the 20th century. Then again since all that would be an "exception," including millions of people and thousands upon thousands of pieces. . .

Generalizations are fun!
But they don't sound good, and that's why people use them.
 

Ytmh

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zen5887 said:
But they don't sound good, and that's why people use them.
As for the particular reasons for composers to use it, that's way too varied to just say "they used it because it doesn't sound good." Certainly when I use it I think it sounds awesome, etc etc.

Generalizations! Again!
 

The Rockerfly

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Ytmh said:
I think the most important thing to tell beginners is that in the end music is whatever anyone makes of it. Otherwise how do you explain people liking Stockhausen and at the same time Jimi Hendrix? There's all sorts of things and there really are no "rules" at all. There's of course the physical and cognitive aspects of music and how it's perceived by the brain, but there's a rather big margin for subjectiveness added to this.

You can really just as well not learn any theory and just go by ear, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I'm of course in favor of researching (not theory in specific, but just looking up literature/other composers/styles, etc) but you don't really HAVE to.

Plus you're missing the 20th century "classical" music stuff like Ligeti/Cage/Boulez/Reich and so on. Modernism in general and even guys like Debussy are super important (specially to things like bossa and a lot of jazz.)

PS: Oh to guys saying "hur hur theory is a recent thing!" Yeah sure it is, Rameau in 1722 sure thought it was rather up to date when he released his Treatise on Harmony. Nevermind of course the whole ars nova deal centuries earlier! Come on theory has been around literally as long as music has, but it has always taken different shapes depending on the time it was practiced (and the literature they had access to.) You can even argue that chord anatomy was already studied as such so long as there was a shift to vertical at the beginning of the baroque period (post-palestrina.)
Also I did quite clearly mention at the start that it's entirely up to you and if you like it then you can put it in

I might add a music history section in the next version however music there is quite a lot of content there which I feel is unnecessary

I only think one person said that theory was a recent thing, many composers write in theory styles and I think it is irrelevant arguing about this

I did mention about modern composers and yes I am missing modern features such as minimalism but I felt they were irrelevant because they are not needed for writing most styles of music bar test pieces.

However I did mention features of Debussy's writing such as writing chords with your own ideas and experimenting with notes in chords

I think you need to read through my post more clearly which I know is difficult being how long it is but still you completely missed a lot of things I quite clearly stated within my original post
 

Ytmh

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I wasn't really commenting on the OP save for the modern bit. But then again w/e, the guide isn't really oriented towards someone who would want to learn about 20th century music anyway, nor history, etc.
 

Arkhangelsk

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Just a little correction: Isn't C the same as a B#? Cause it says that a C is the same as Bb.
 

The Rockerfly

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Arkhangelsk said:
Just a little correction: Isn't C the same as a B#? Cause it says that a C is the same as Bb.
Yeah several people have pointed it out to me and I'm in the process of making version 6 with added bass section and correction such as the C that's the same as Bb
 

The Rockerfly

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Version 6 has been created. There have been numerous additions

Singing styles have been added to each style
Bass styles have been added to each playing style
That C=Bb mistake has been changed
I have put recommended artists of the genre too


Word count is now 9,006 and this is by far my longest post. As always I say please criticise my report so I can improve it even further
 
Aug 3, 2008
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This is very useful, i shall be coming back here with my guitar at some point in the near future. I know some theory (chord progression, major key, some scales) etc but it's by no means a comprehensive understanding. I'm always looking to learn more and there is a lot here for me to sink my teeth into.
 

The Rockerfly

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baggyn said:
This is very useful, i shall be coming back here with my guitar at some point in the near future. I know some theory (chord progression, major key, some scales) etc but it's by no means a comprehensive understanding. I'm always looking to learn more and there is a lot here for me to sink my teeth into.
Is there anything you would recommend me add? I would love to increase the length the length so it's improved and people can understand an even better learning of music for it

Plus I would like to hit 10,000 words but that's a very shallow reason
 

Waif

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While the creation of music isn't my cup of tea, I thought I should commend you for all your effort in putting this together for the people who could benefit from it. Well done ^~^!
 

The Rockerfly

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Waif said:
While the creation of music isn't my cup of tea, I thought I should commend you for all your effort in putting this together for the people who could benefit from it. Well done ^~^!
Thank you, I don't suppose you have any criticism? Even just with the layout, I want to make this as good as possible and it to almost a communal thread so future musicians can make music just from this thread
 

Waif

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The Rockerfly said:
Waif said:
While the creation of music isn't my cup of tea, I thought I should commend you for all your effort in putting this together for the people who could benefit from it. Well done ^~^!
Thank you, I don't suppose you have any criticism? Even just with the layout, I want to make this as good as possible and it to almost a communal thread so future musicians can make music just from this thread
I can't really comment as far as criticism is concerned. I would first require some knowledge about the subject that we are dealing with, and I'm afraid the mechanics of music is something that I don't know very much about. I never found an interest in the basics of music, yet I do love music in general. I felt that knowing how to make music, would spoil the wonder of it for me. What I can say, is that from what I have seen, the structuring of the information provided is succinct and not verbose in it's creation. I can also say that the information seems to be complete or as near-complete as would be hoped from a forum post and not an actual music class. Does this help you in any way?
 

Oh That Dude

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OP: nice. Couple spelling/grammar/syntax things, theory is sound though *thumbs up*. I'm a whore for the modes, I'ma try and use pentatonic and blues and diminished and dominant stuff more.
 
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Considering I am currently teaching myself guitar, which is fun and a nice pastime, I lack the good theory backing that lessons would get me. This has been indescribably helpful, so a really big thanks to you for taking the time to write this out. :)
 

The Rockerfly

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Waif said:
I can't really comment as far as criticism is concerned. I would first require some knowledge about the subject that we are dealing with, and I'm afraid the mechanics of music is something that I don't know very much about. I never found an interest in the basics of music, yet I do love music in general. I felt that knowing how to make music, would spoil the wonder of it for me. What I can say, is that from what I have seen, the structuring of the information provided is succinct and not verbose in it's creation. I can also say that the information seems to be complete or as near-complete as would be hoped from a forum post and not an actual music class. Does this help you in any way?
I completely understand it is very hard to appreciate a lot of simple music once you know a lot of it sounds identical at least from musical perspectives.
Thanks, I can;t add any new content from this post but I get the feeling new content would be either irrelevant to making music or even theory at all (such as a proper history of the genre

skitzo van said:
I know all about this, but I'd say you explain it better than my book did. Well done!
Thank you kindly

Oh That Dude said:
OP: nice. Couple spelling/grammar/syntax things, theory is sound though *thumbs up*. I'm a whore for the modes, I'ma try and use pentatonic and blues and diminished and dominant stuff more.
I don't suppose you can point them out to me? It will be very helpful in improving it even further

The Maddest March Hare said:
Considering I am currently teaching myself guitar, which is fun and a nice pastime, I lack the good theory backing that lessons would get me. This has been indescribably helpful, so a really big thanks to you for taking the time to write this out. :)
If you need someone to help explain any guitar techniques, theory or how to play sections of a piece feel free to message me then
 

drmaistro

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Excellent guide for beginning musicians. I look forward to seeing how it evolves over time. There is a lot of useful information here, though somewhat tedious to read through. I have been a long-time player and teaching for coming up on 13 years now and find this information to be up to par for a surface overview of a large majority of the more important concepts.
RE: The Theory/No Theory Arguement
Typically, authors are literate. Generally, their most learned work is their best technical work. Their content suffers from exhaustion of time and not because they're more well studied. Once you've written the "natural" stories in your head, you need tools to move forward. Uninspired writing (in any art) is a product of a lack of inspiration, not a bi-product of education. Understanding the sound around you makes you a more proficient musician, however your potential is capped by two things: Natural Talent AND Understanding. If you know everything there is to know about music, but you've got no soul... then you're not going to sound good. Likewise, if you know nothing of how sound works, but you've got tons of talent... that's great. You'll probably get good once you learn the ropes. Think of it this way: Van Gogh painted/drew over 100,000 images in his lifetime. The more he learned about the different styles of painting and studying with the artists of the time (e.g. Monet, Gaugin, etc.), he learned more about HOW to paint. He adopted parts he liked to his style and did his own thing, learning from the trial and error of all the painters before him to move forward. It wasn't until he learned how to paint like normal people that he discovered how to paint like Van Gogh. Sometimes, it can be hard to see the forest through the trees, but sleep easy with the idea that knowing more about making sound will NOT make you worse at doing it. Guess and check is irrelevent when you already know what it's going to sound like. Yes, all that matters is how it sounds in the end, but the process is where the art happens, not on your CD.

The Golden Rule: None of the rules really matter if it sounds good to you. Just remember your art may only have an audience of one. Art for art's sake, so to speak.

Great guide, keep it up.
 

drmaistro

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Arkhangelsk said:
Just a little correction: Isn't C the same as a B#? Cause it says that a C is the same as Bb.
These are called "enharmonics." Two notes that share a pitch, but have different names. The difference is really how you use the notes. For example, if you're building a scale and you need to go up a whole step from A#, you wind up at B#. However, if you're going up a step from Bb, you wind up on C. Either way, you did the same two sounds, but on paper it's different. C# Major's 7th pitch can not be C natural (since the scale already has a C and doesn't have a B), so we call it B# since it IS the pitch of C, but it has to be the letter B. Just remember that major scales are alphabetical, so it makes some things happen from time to time that seem unnecessary. (Including irrational scales, like A# Major)

EDIT: LOL! I completely read your post wrong, however I should leave this blurb on enharmonics anyway. My apologies, I see you were just pointing out a typo.
 

The Rockerfly

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drmaistro said:
I have actually put "you don't need theory and experience will allow you to write better music then any guide" at the start because people were initially arguing about it

I understand that it could be tedious to read at times but all I can do is; paragraph often, a few text based diagrams and heading, sub headings and sub sub headings. I wish I could stick in images but I would be violating copyright laws if I used anyone else's and if I create my own I would have to find a decent site to host the image for an infinite amount of time

However thanks for the criticism, I shall see if there is any content that is irrelevant, unnecessary or I could maybe create diagrams for