My beef with piracy.
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Yeah, you're right. That was a bad analogy. However, I'd also make the argument that comparing video games to books is also a bad analogy, because 1, like I said before, video games cost millions of dollars to create while books pretty much only require that you have a computer and electricity (or a pen and a lot of paper), and 2, because frankly, most authors don't get nearly as much money as they deserve.infinity_turtles said:
I mean sure, every once in awhile there will be some author that gets lucky and makes millions of his/her works, but most of the notable and influential authors throughout history and even today are poor for most of their lives, despite the fact that they're successful authors. Hell, Mark Twain had to file for bankruptcy. Mark Twain! Arguably one of the most influential writers in history, and even he ended up in poverty during multiple points in his career.
So by comparing pirating to libraries, you're essentially arguing that the video gaming industry needs to function more like the writing industry, which doesn't pay the developers nearly as much as they deserve. I feel obliged to disagree.
I don't justify piracy; I just believe that I am innocent until prven guilty. I'm not a criminal, so the government has no right to moniter me like I am one.
That's because you're a bad person.Radeonx said:
Don't try to deny it. You just admitted that you steal and don't care that it's a crime. Ergo, you're a criminal. And since you aren't stealing bread for your starving children, you have no defence. Don't even TRY to defend yourself because you haven't got a leg to stand on.
You're even worse. You're a complete monster because your lack or morality goes well beyond merely stealing copies of luxury goods. You're PROUD of being a monster.EHKOS said:
The sad thing is, though I can tell that the arguments people make against piracy are incredibly flawed, I've pirated music before. I've probably pirated games before. Granted I haven't pirated anything in a long time (at least a year), but I don't know if arguing against piracy makes me a hypocrite. Although it seems like it's just human nature to be evil and hypocritical, so I guess there's no reason to hate myself for it. Like I said in some other post, I don't hate other people for pirating.DarkRyter said:
And while I don't know if arguing against piracy makes me a hypocrite, I do know that arguing against piracy doesn't make any sort of difference, so I guess it should make something, right?
ExactlyPyode said:
Also to all the people who say that they aren't technically stealing because you aren't taking something physical that is one of the dumbest arguments Ive ever heard. Yes you are stealing your taking something that isn't yours without permission. "In criminal law, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent." which is what piracy is therefor its defined as theft.
While yes everything can be justified that doesn't always mean it is and I don't believe that most pirates are justified.Matt_LRR said:
Wow, way to use an unrealistic, over the top example in order make yourself appear to have the moral high-ground.infinity_turtles said:Then stop arguing the first two points.So we disagree fundamentally about whether permission matter in how the product is used? What if all gun manufacturers said "I only give permission to nazis to use my product, as that supports my interests"? I know of course this is more about what scale we believe permission matters at, but I do want to calrify whether you subscribe to that belief fully.
Anyway, to answer you question, yes. I would respect the manufacturers decision. Now, that is not to say I wouldn't do anything about it or support those who did something about it. Ambushing military convoys in an effort to weaken enemy forces is common practice in war and is, in my opinion, a legitimate strategy.
Also, I feel that saving someones life almost always will supersede any other moral obligation, (I.E. the moral obligation to not steal) with the possible exception of killing another innocent.
You want to know how not to support future products? Don't buy future products! It does not mean that you can consume the present product without compensation.
I'm nineteen and currently make about eleven hundred dollars a month, though every few months that tends to fluctuate a bit. Nature of my work and all. I can afford things very easily though. I budget my money pretty tightly and spend fairly little as I live in a sparse, cheap apartment and drive a used car that's functional but not very pretty which I bought from a friend. Most of my money is simply thrown into my savings account. I hate ad hominum.Ghostkai said:
And when you check-out a book in a library that one book may very well become thousands read. What's your point?Pyode said:
See, I don't disagree about me not being entitled to download it. Not being entitled to do something does not mean that the thing is inherently bad though. It's neutral.Pyode said:
So authors of books, but not writers for video games, should be forced to work part time jobs? One person getting paid more than another on average doesn't make it "right".Gladion said:
Again, this is about permission. Not all the authors in your library have given permission to have their books in the library. Also, there's evidence that pirates put more money into the industry than others do, so it comes down mainly to having been given permission. I say other people's permission means little to nothing in terms of morality.Gladion said:
If you steal petrol, you are actually removing that gasoline from the possession of the petrol company. They are taking a definitive loss on it, as it is something you are physically removing from their possession. When you pirate a game, you are not taking anything of tangible value from the game developer. You actions, in fact, hurt the site hosting the pirated game as they increase bandwidth cost.
You are, in theory, taking the potential for profit from the game developer, however, this is not the case necessarily. There are games that a person might certainly never buy, or would at best buy second-hand, either way giving the game company no income. In this case, the company has no change in their income, and the pirate hosting site is actually the only party hurt. I'm not going to buy Red Dead Redemption, but if I was given a burnt copy that my Xbox360 could run, I would play it.
In the end, this discussion, while interesting, seems a bit futile as both sides have different logical assumptions. An anti-piracy argument as you present it seems to rely on a legalistic basis in the sense that it relies heavily on what is illegal or legal. A pro-piracy arguement disregards legalism and looks at a purely moral/ethical argument, and therefore the two sides' logic is incompatible. No amount of pointing at the law with convince me that piracy is bad, and it is most likely that no amount of pointing at my ethics and the concept of tangible vs. intangible assets will convince you that it is fine.
You are, in theory, taking the potential for profit from the game developer, however, this is not the case necessarily. There are games that a person might certainly never buy, or would at best buy second-hand, either way giving the game company no income. In this case, the company has no change in their income, and the pirate hosting site is actually the only party hurt. I'm not going to buy Red Dead Redemption, but if I was given a burnt copy that my Xbox360 could run, I would play it.
In the end, this discussion, while interesting, seems a bit futile as both sides have different logical assumptions. An anti-piracy argument as you present it seems to rely on a legalistic basis in the sense that it relies heavily on what is illegal or legal. A pro-piracy arguement disregards legalism and looks at a purely moral/ethical argument, and therefore the two sides' logic is incompatible. No amount of pointing at the law with convince me that piracy is bad, and it is most likely that no amount of pointing at my ethics and the concept of tangible vs. intangible assets will convince you that it is fine.
If you think something isn't worth anything then why do you want it? Clearly it has some value to you if you are willing to steal it since it shows you want it. If you don't think something is worth paying for then don't pay for it. Just don't steal the thing either since you are barring someone from their compensation to have their intellectual property.infinity_turtles said:
For the record since you are ignorant about the case: Radiohead's "pay as you feel" album was downloaded off their website which showed 1.2 million visitors and averaged less than $4 per copy. Take out people who just didn't pay anything and that brings up the average to $6 ($8.05 in America since that matters for whatever reason). This data was gathered the first month of its release.
I don't see your point.Arcane Azmadi said:
You just re-iterated what I said and made me seem like a terrible person for taking $60 away from a developer. So what? I don't have to explain myself to you.
I buy the games I feel worth buying, but may or may not pirate the ones that don't seem worth the money. I don't care if you don't like it, and I don't care if other people don't like it.
Well sir, I admire your balls. Holy crap, that sentence sounds really gay. Let me rephrase... Well sir, you certainly must have balls to be able to say something like that, and I admire that.EHKOS said:
Sadly though, I'm inclined to disagree with you on the grounds that people like you are the reason that the world is always in such a fucked up state. Unless you're just telling yourself that you have no morals in order to justify your actions so you don't have to hate yourself. And if that's the case, then I really can't hold it against you. Denial is a perfectly normal human defense mechanism, after all.
Except that they spend either millions or at the very least a lot of time producing something. They made it: They get to decide what they do with it. If I write a good story in my diary and someone reads it or throws it under a copying machine and shares it with his friends, while putting my diary back, I may not have literal physical damage, but it is still damage.3nimac said:
Now a game or music may not be 'secret' in the same sense, but they spend time and money creating this precisely for having the advantage of selling access to that play experience. Do you think if you stole the CD from a music store that their biggest loss would be the physical cd? You know how little a physical CD costs! Their loss is the product they spent time building.
I haven't tried to think of it that way, but this argument by far makes the most sense. It is fairly interesting, especially your theories on the potential profit the developers might lose. The boundaries between legality and morals are going to stay that way, though, so the battle between the constantly evolving pirate industry and the law/developers will go on forever.2012 Wont Happen said:
It's not about his balls. I think he doesn't feel bad about stealing. It's estimated that about 1% of the population has psychopathy. Not necessarily makes you an ax-murderer, but makes you completely free from any feelings of guilt.Jedi Sasquatch said:
Which means that he's not being brave, he just doesn't have a conscience. Physically.