My biggest problem with The Dark Knight Rises... [spoilers ahead]

[monkey_man]

Wasn't the one rule of Batman in the movies "no guns"? I mean you can't save everyone, but blasting everyone to shreds isn't how the batman rolls. Sometimes you just got to take out a grunt or crazy inmate by blasting the cabin to shreds though, or drive over some cars. After all, he did save Gotham from a flipping nuke, I think a handful of kills will probably be overlooked if you save millions of people.

Anyway, i really liked the movie.

 

[Senor Smoke21]

what i want to know is how batman could walk on the ice with all his heavy armour, and set the ice on fire, and have time to plan and burn his symbol on the bridge when anyone other 'normal' people almost immediately fell in.

Also definitely this.

Actually I dont see the plot hole in this. First off, Batman is not supposed to have 'Heavy' armor, its light weight yet durable, so he can, you know, GLIDE, and FIGHT, and well, MOVE. Second, batman didn't light the ice on fire (seriously? you asked this?) he lit a fuse, which traveled OVER the ice.

I have no problem with the fire bit but you can't ignore that he would definitely be heavier than the average person and earlier in the film we saw an average person fall though the ice.
While yes, his armour is 'light', it would still have some weight to it, plus he's a muscular dude, gonna be packing some pounds himself. And the way he just nonchalantly strolls around like the ice ain't no thang. Not so much a plot hole as a continuity problem.

Can't we just say that it's <link=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool>Rule of Cool?

Well yeah, I mean, he's the God Dam Batman.

I have no problem with the fire bit but you can't ignore that he would definitely be heavier than the average person and earlier in the film we saw an average person fall though the ice.
While yes, his armour is 'light', it would still have some weight to it, plus he's a muscular dude, gonna be packing some pounds himself. And the way he just nonchalantly strolls around like the ice ain't no thang. Not so much a plot hole as a continuity problem.

But surely the training sessions on the ice in Batman begins would allow him to know how to deal with ice and how to recognize the weak spots.

Yeah, as well as being the God Dam Batman, you can't forget he is also a ninja.
I guess it all pans out.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Reposting my stuff from another thread.

The movie is overall a fun ride. I liked it, perhaps I was a little disappointed, but it wwa


THE GOOD

Catwoman: Hathaway was very fun to watch. I was very skeptical of her, but she played this role wonderfully.

The acting: Michael Caine's performance is one of the most emotional I've seen. Tom Hardy's acting as Bane is great. Bane's role near the end becomes lacking though.

THE BAD

Pacing: The first half rushes you with information. Other than the opening scene, there is no build-up to Bane being a threat and doesn't characterize him as much as say the the Joker.

Silly stories ideas:
1. Bane taking Batman to fucking Morocco (IMDB says it's Mexico, but all evidence to me suggests an Arabic country, along with "deshi basara").
2. Timer on the bomb. Felt like an unnecessary method of creating tension.
3. Introducing the Special Forces guys, only to have them killed off immediately
4. Blake being able to discern Batman's identity from the emotional connection (arguably reasonable for some though, but to me it reaks of lazy writing)
5. Bane using Gordon's letter as an unnecessary device. The contrived sequence of him acquiring the letter would be forgive-able if the letter was of any importance, but he has no proof that Gordon wrote the letter.

Reveals at bad times: Alfred revealing that Bane is from the League of Shadows 10 minutes of the movie when it could have been revealed later (like when Batman and Bane meet for instance). Also I know Alfred is a badass soldier and bounty-hunter, but he should not be able to find out information on a secret society that has existed FOR CENTURIES without being detected.

Miranda revealed Talia within the last 10 minutes of the movie. At that point we didn't care anymore. Her romance felt shoe-horned in.

Overuse of flashbacks at points.

...and NOBODY seems to have picked up on this, but Batman kills someone. Not only kills, but shoots them. The driver of the van with the fusion bomb in, Batman straight up fires his battle cannons through the windshield, killing him dead so Miranda/Talia can take the wheel.

Eh. We don't know if it was lethal.

1: Like I said, the physical performance, dialogue and camera/music work made him seem menacing... And then he starts taking. You just can't take him seriously. It takes you out of it. And sometimes you might not understand.

I agree with mostly everything you said except this. Bane's voice was good because it was different, otherwise they would just be pulling the same Darth Vader spiel that everyone tries to emulate. He sounds cultured, and although a bit silly at times his words are still important.

 

[mindlesspuppet]

I enjoyed the film. I never noticed that, but yeah, that does sound bad. But to add to the discussion, I'll just add my biggest issue with the film:

My biggest issue was Bane. Not because he was bad, but because he was just SOOOO close to being even better than the Joker. He was big, he was intimidating, the camera work and music worked flawlessly to make him appear even moreso, and he was intelligent. But two things ruined it. One of which is spoiler-free, but a nitpick, and the other is spoiler-tastic and completey ruined him.

1: Like I said, the physical performance, dialogue and camera/music work made him seem menacing... And then he starts taking. You just can't take him seriously. It takes you out of it. And sometimes you might not understand.

Spoiler: And the big one:

Spoiler: The final twist before the bad guys lose.

The reveal of Talia. This completely changed the character of Bane. And not in a good way.

Think about it. Why was the Batman and Robin version of Bane so stupid and hated? Simple:
He was just a big, dumb grunt.

Dark Knight Rises was having him a lot closer to his comics version: Big and powerful, but also cunning and intelligent. A diabolical mastermind who could also throw a damn hard punch. And then they reveal Talia. That she was the mastermind. That she found out who Batman was, and that this was all her plan, and that she was the child who managed to escape the inescapable prison. .

So if Talia was the cunning, tortured, vengeful criminal mastermind, what does that make Bane? Simple:
A big, dumb grunt.

Sure, he's not as stupid as he was in B&R, and he certainly had charisma. But he's not a mastermind. He's not able to figure out Batman's identity. He was not able to break Batman mentally, he was just the tool, and the one who breaks him physically. Not only that, but the reveal messed up his origin, which until then, was almost completely right.

And to top it all off, he's taken out rather unceremoniously, right after what was until then a good fight.

This x100 (your second point).

I think I'm one of the very small number that actually really liked Bane's voice. When I first heard it, I was caught off guard a bit, but as the movie went on I liked it more and more.

Also Bane's voice worked well as a sort of symbol and practically speaking according to the story.

Spoiler

When Talia returns to the pit to get Bane, his face is wrapped up in bloodied bandages. They mention how the prisoners tortured him and he's in constant pain. I think it's a fair guess that Bane doesn't actually have much as a face under his mask, most importantly lips.If you talk without using your lips, you'll probably sound somewhat similar to him.

 

[White_Lama]

BUT GUYS! The flaming Bat inspired people. It wasn't pointless theatrics, it was a battle banner, a rally for everyone to fight, Batman was back in town sorta thing and by god he made sure everyone knew. It certainly did it's job too.

Hmm, that is true. I'll let it slip

 

[ToffeeMC]

Batman used to kill people all the time in the old comics, if I remember correctly, so it doesn't really ruin much for me.
(I may have derp'd here, sorry)

 

[Gone Rampant]

what i want to know is how batman could walk on the ice with all his heavy armour, and set the ice on fire, and have time to plan and burn his symbol on the bridge when anyone other 'normal' people almost immediately fell in.

The ice was probably more thick at night. It does raise the question of why Gordon would be sent out at that time, though...

 

[JoesshittyOs]

what i want to know is how batman could walk on the ice with all his heavy armour, and set the ice on fire, and have time to plan and burn his symbol on the bridge when anyone other 'normal' people almost immediately fell in.

Because he's a fucking ninja. He did have a sword fight with Liam Neeson on ice, maybe it's safe to say he mastered that particular skill set?

 

[Thespian]

I had a ton of problems with this movie.

1 - Bane turning into a mindless goon with a nonsensical motivation.

2 - Talia not being properly introduced as a villain in favour of her being a stupid twist for twist's sake.

3 - Bat-Man is a boring character and nothing like the Batman we know. The fact that he wants to stop being batman because he's afraid he will die is stupid. The Batman I know is always teetering on mentally ill, he's addicted to his life as Batman - The role of vigilante is personal to him, fuelled by his past pain and revenge lust. This Batman, as Nolan stated in the film, is merely a mask - Anyone can wear it. And Batman just wants to give it up before he gets hurt so he can run off to an idyllic retirement. Pathetic. Batman is a psychosis, not a day-job.

4 - The whole lower-class upheaval sub-plot that lead nowhere and meant nothing. The first act is filled with people complaining about the rich and the second and third acts show anarchy failing completely so I don't know what they were trying to say. It reeks of Nolan just slapping a bunch of symbolism around everything so it looked like the movie was actually about something and had a powerful political message. It would have been much easier and more effective to just make an engaging character story.

5 - As the OP said, Batman killed someone. Catwoman does this multiple times. Catwoman hates killing and abhors the idea of murder. I think she's done it once in the comics, where she killed Black Mask after being pushed to the edge. In this she just blows people away. Cool beans.

6 - Blake's real name is Robin.
Fuck. Me. Stupidest fan service ever. It would have made way more sense to just call him Drake instead of Blake. He was basically Tim Drake's character anyways.

One man's life for the whole of Gotham? Yeah I can see batman taking that logic.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic when saying that. I think you are, but if not... Oh geez.
I fear that that's what the Nolan movies are doing. Eradicating the most prominent aspects of Batman's character in the eyes of the public.

So this was a new origin for the Batman Family. Maybe the writers were taking it way back to the original comics Batman, as originally conceived and written in the Detective Comics used guns and regularly killed people. I can't remember if it was MovieBob or the Podcast crew, but they brought up one example where Batman used his whole "I am going to drop you off a high roof" torture routine on a bank robber... just minus the rope...

The I shall not kill was a product of the Golden Age overhaul wherein the comic book publishers were trying to maintain their business in the face of ongoing "studies" and cultural beliefs that comic books caused: violence in children, homosexuality in children, and the rise in juvenile crime rates leading into the '50s.... Factors they did not include were, I dunno, the massive child boom that took place in the mid- to late-40's.... More juveniles might lead to more juvenile crime, but I haven't done any research into this

This type of character narrative of "I SHALL NEVER TAKE A LIFE!!!" became the norm in the Silver Age of Comics which was triggered by the creation of the Comics Code Authority. Other examples include: Green Arrow, Wonder Woman overhaul, Green Latern overhaul, etc.

Yep, you're right, nothing in the Nolanverse to stop Batman from killing people. Speaking of which, I loved that one scene in The Dark Knight where Batman ran the Joker down with his motorbike because he's not afraid to kill people and he knew that would solve the problem fastest.

Oh wait.

 

[RobotDinosaur]

My biggest complaint with DKR is that it was Storytelling 101, and I really thought Nolan was better than that.

Agreed. I loved the movie, but they seemed to focus on spectacle over coherent plot. Like how they knew to the second when the bomb would go off (there's enough variables in radioactive decay that this seems unlikely.) And Gordon's scramble to enable the signal blocker a split-second before Talia tries to use the bomb. And how Blake somehow just knew Bruce Wayne was Batman. And how Batman recovers from a broken spine in a month by being hoisted by a rope. And so on.

And maybe it's just me, but the final scene seems like kind of a waste. Alfred's speech over the Wayne graves is brutally emotional - and then we find out that Bruce survived after all. Two emotionally effective ending scenes, but they elicit opposite emotions and kind of cancel each other out, so I left the movie feeling more ambivalent that I wish I did.

 

[RobotDinosaur]

Edit: Wrong forum.

 

[themyrmidon]

My biggest problem was the M Night twist and it's implication on Bane, turning him from 'Bane done perfectly' to 'Bane from Batman Forever'. He might have still had the accent, but his intelligence was gone.

 

[Tono Makt]

"I knew you were that Batman!"

"But how did you know it was me?"

"One day Bruce Wayne came to visit our orphanage, and he looked really sad, because his parents had died."

I think this is when my brain stepped in and said "Wait. Wait wait wait. Screw you, Makt - I'm turning back on now."

 

[Tono Makt]

I had a ton of problems with this movie.

1 - Bane turning into a mindless goon with a nonsensical motivation.

Rather harsh opinion here. He wasn't mindless and his motivation wasn't nonsensical (though it needed a great deal more explanation than we got). The twist did knock him down more than I was happy with and did call into question how much was his doing and how much he was simply ordered to do.

2 - Talia not being properly introduced as a villain in favour of her being a stupid twist for twist's sake.

Another rather harsh opinion here, which I don't share in the least. I was actually rather pleased that she turned out to be the villain, though I was slightly disappointed that they didn't actually make Bane Al Ghul's son. That was a change to the canon that I started off disliking, then as I thought about it during the movie I thought it was a good idea.

3 - Bat-Man is a boring character and nothing like the Batman we know. The fact that he wants to stop being batman because he's afraid he will die is stupid. The Batman I know is always teetering on mentally ill, he's addicted to his life as Batman - The role of vigilante is personal to him, fuelled by his past pain and revenge lust. This Batman, as Nolan stated in the film, is merely a mask - Anyone can wear it. And Batman just wants to give it up before he gets hurt so he can run off to an idyllic retirement. Pathetic. Batman is a psychosis, not a day-job.

This is a nonsensical argument, and you somewhat negate it yourself by separating Nolan's Batman from the other examples of Batman. Nolan's Batman has always been Bruce Wayne making a symbol that the criminals would fear and was far less of a psychosis. That's what we were given for Batman Begins and the Dark Knight, and it became extreme in TDKR.

4 - The whole lower-class upheaval sub-plot that lead nowhere and meant nothing. The first act is filled with people complaining about the rich and the second and third acts show anarchy failing completely so I don't know what they were trying to say. It reeks of Nolan just slapping a bunch of symbolism around everything so it looked like the movie was actually about something and had a powerful political message. It would have been much easier and more effective to just make an engaging character story.

I agree with this completely. I'm one of those weird people who agrees with most of the Occupy Wall Street goals, and when I saw that part of the movie I couldn't tell if it was being mocked or not. I don't mind it being mocked - I've mocked it many times myself when I thought stupid things were being done in its name (so to speak) - but I couldn't tell what Nolan was doing with that whole section of the movie. Beyond Bane/Talia torturing Bruce Wayne with it. There was quite a bit that he could do with it, but it was utterly wasted.

5 - As the OP said, Batman killed someone. Catwoman does this multiple times. Catwoman hates killing and abhors the idea of murder. I think she's done it once in the comics, where she killed Black Mask after being pushed to the edge. In this she just blows people away. Cool beans.

Again, comic Catwoman vs movie Selena Kyle (not Catwoman) is not a fair comparison. This is Nolan's Selena Kyle, not the comic book Selena Kyle. Selena Kyle killing people in this movie makes sense for the situation and the character as presented in the movie.

6 - Blake's real name is Robin.
Fuck. Me. Stupidest fan service ever. It would have made way more sense to just call him Drake instead of Blake. He was basically Tim Drake's character anyways.

Another 100% agreement. On the bright side, they didn't actually give him a costume and let him fight alongside Batman as Robin or Nightwing. That's something I give props to the movie for.

 

[rob_simple]

I really hoped that

Spoiler

as Batman was flying off with the bomb, just before it detonated, his Sat-nav (or Bat-nav, if you will) would say 'you are now arriving at Metropolis.'

 

[Thespian]

Rather harsh opinion here. He wasn't mindless and his motivation wasn't nonsensical (though it needed a great deal more explanation than we got). The twist did knock him down more than I was happy with and did call into question how much was his doing and how much he was simply ordered to do.

If I sounded overly harsh I guess I was just trying to condense my opinion. But I do think that that moment should have been the pinnacle of Bane's character, revealing and affirming things about him that would add some depth and understanding to his character. Instead, it needlessly over-complicated things. I have no idea what Bane's motivation actually was. I find it really hard to believe that he cares for Tali so much that he's willing to let her kill herself, and Bane, to accomplish the goal of her father who not only condemned Talia and her mother to the Pit but exiled Bane after he saved Talia's life. But that is what Bane is doing. For anyone to do that, they'd have to be some sort of automaton.

Another rather harsh opinion here, which I don't share in the least. I was actually rather pleased that she turned out to be the villain, though I was slightly disappointed that they didn't actually make Bane Al Ghul's son. That was a change to the canon that I started off disliking, then as I thought about it during the movie I thought it was a good idea.

I don't agree here at all. I cringed when it looked like Bane would be Ra's son, that'd be rather weak. And I just think that Talia should have been properly built up as a villain from the start. I found it really flow-breaking when I suddenly had to forget about the villain who had been developed from the beginning, watch him get discarded like any random grunt, and then rapidly get invested in this new villain so close to the end. It sucks because Talia is a cool character, and Marion Cotillard is a great actress. I just feel like the character's potential was wasted.
To be fair, I didn't see that twist coming. I think it was pretty cheap, but still. I totally should have seen it coming, too.

This is a nonsensical argument, and you somewhat negate it yourself by separating Nolan's Batman from the other examples of Batman. Nolan's Batman has always been Bruce Wayne making a symbol that the criminals would fear and was far less of a psychosis. That's what we were given for Batman Begins and the Dark Knight, and it became extreme in TDKR.

Well yes, that's what I'm saying. I know it was established in Batman Begins and TDK. And I really, really don't like it. I'm not saying that it's an internal inconsistency on Nolan's part, I'm saying that I think it's a crappy choice for the character and I don't like the direction it goes in. Though, I guess you're right - It's not a flaw in the movie so much as just being something about the series I don't like.

I agree with this completely. I'm one of those weird people who agrees with most of the Occupy Wall Street goals, and when I saw that part of the movie I couldn't tell if it was being mocked or not. I don't mind it being mocked - I've mocked it many times myself when I thought stupid things were being done in its name (so to speak) - but I couldn't tell what Nolan was doing with that whole section of the movie. Beyond Bane/Talia torturing Bruce Wayne with it. There was quite a bit that he could do with it, but it was utterly wasted.

I know, right? I mean, Bane kept giving out about upper class corruption and stuff but he didn't seem to care much about it personally. Shrug.

Again, comic Catwoman vs movie Selena Kyle (not Catwoman) is not a fair comparison. This is Nolan's Selena Kyle, not the comic book Selena Kyle. Selena Kyle killing people in this movie makes sense for the situation and the character as presented in the movie.

Well, you're right there, actually. I think by that point in my post I was just listing nagging thoughts but it really does fit the movie version of her character. As long as she's not cutting down hordes of innocent or anything. And besides, it didn't stop Catwoman being by far my favorite part of the movie. Nolan and his team really, really got her right. Kudos to Hathaway.

Another 100% agreement. On the bright side, they didn't actually give him a costume and let him fight alongside Batman as Robin or Nightwing. That's something I give props to the movie for.

Thank god, that could have been so bad >_<

Though I woooould like to see Robin in a movie at some point. If done well. Jason Todd is a story begging to be told on the big screen.

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

...and NOBODY seems to have picked up on this, but Batman kills someone. Not only kills, but shoots them. The driver of the van with the fusion bomb in, Batman straight up fires his battle cannons through the windshield, killing him dead so Miranda/Talia can take the wheel.

Yeah, I hate to say this, but that ship sailed looooong ago. Think about it: In Batman Begins, he grabs a hot poker and throws it into a big pile of gunpowder to get out of executing someone for the league of shadows. What happens as a result? Their ENTIRE NINJA FORTRESS EXPLODES. You're telling me nobody died in that?

Well, I suppose they ARE ninjas, so they could have escaped. And since we don't actually see any bodies, I guess I could be wrong. Except in the Dark Knight, when Batman straight up PUSHES TWO-FACE OFF OF A FUCKING LEDGE. There's really no way around this one: He was pushed out of a building, and died as a DIRECT result. Batman fucking killed the guy. Sure, it was to save the kid, but Batman's rule isn't "No killing unless you absolutely have to", it's "NO FUCKING KILLING". And he killed a guy.

 

[Lord Kloo]

Sorry I was too caught up in Tom Hardy to notice if there were any plot holes and flights of fantasy..

But seriously everything in the movie that doesn't make sense I allowed because it made the story good and worked well but there is one thing..

When the 3000 cops showed up at city hall to fight Bane and Co. why did they mass in one nice column and where the hell were their guns? Did the guns just decay in the sewers? Did they eat the bullets to survive? That is the only bit that annoyed me