My Criticism of 'Narrative Mechanics' by Extra Credits

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mrc390

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Extra Credits is a show that most of you probably know, it has become quite popular during its short lifespan. I am a fan and agree with them on many topics. But the episode "Narrative Mechanics" just comes across as pretentious nonsense and has been bothering me ever since I watched it I would like to give my thoughts on this episodes and see what others on the escapist think. So please before you condemn me as a hater with no life please at least read what I have to say and keep the judgements until after ;)

Now, the people who don't know the episode, in this episode they ask the question "Can games tell a story or raise a question using only play?" They use missile command as an example.
Now this is a very simple question, Yes. Practically every game does this. Even counter-strike does this. Even if you never heard of Counter Strike, play one round and you know the story, terrorists are trying to blow up a small town and counter terrorists are trying to stop them. Am I missing something here? Why did they have to reference a thirty year old game to prove a point? I guess it depends on how you define 'play'. If you factor in exploration of your environment as part then it's simple, but if were only talking about your interaction(eg you shooting your gun in an fps) as part of 'play then it becomes a lot harder. I'd love to hear some conformation on this.
But my biggest frustration in this episode is how they portrayed Missile Command as a deep and Intelligent game which it certainly is not.

In it you have six cities and three missile bases and you lose when you lose all six cities, so do you sacrifice all but one city so you can maximize survival chance or try save them all? They stated it had "the best and most difficult moral choice any video game has ever presented'. But I don't see it as a moral choice, because these aren't cities full of people, there pixels. Now, not saying you can't feel bad for pixels, many games such as Mass Effect, Silent Hill and System shock 2 have brought me close to tears before but that is because these characters are fleshed out, we learn to care for them through the course of the game and can truly sympathise with there struggles. But in Missile Command, we know nothing of these places, they did say you're supposed to use towns near you and pretend there the towns in Missile Command but I don't buy that, that's like if in Mass Effect 2, instead of giving the character Jacob a backstory, a box popped up saying "Pretend he's your best friend in real life" it wouldn't work there and it doesn't work in Missile Command.

So it's not a moral choice, it's a calculation. Obviously you will survive the longest if you concentrate on keeping one or two cities alive and forget about the rest so why not do that? If you want a much better example of a moral choice, try Pathologic. It's a game most of you wouldn't have heard of it, it was made by Russian Developer Ice Pick Lodge back in 2004. Rock, Paper, Shotgun has a long article about it that is worth reading,but for now I'll give a quick synopsis

The game begins with three healers arriving in a town, a backwards settlement built on a meat industry out in the barren earth of the Russian steppes. The year is 1910. The three healers do not know each other, and arrive in town via different paths and come for different reasons. One of the healers is a doctor from the city, another is a shamanistic figure. The last is a tiny girl with fearsome messianical powers. They are the Bachelor, the Haruspicus and the Devotress. They?re also your playable characters.
But things are wrong. The moment the three healers arrive a terrible, merciless infection breaks out. Soon thousands of residents have fallen ill, with hundreds more dying each day. As the town is isolated and, eventually, quarantined, the healers are trapped, forced to win the fight against the disease or succumb to the infection themselves. And make no mistake, if no one stops this plague it will wipe the town off the face of the Earth.

This is a very hard game and as such, resources are scarce, very scarce. As such you will often have to give up something you need just so you can buy some food and survive the rest of the day. But roaming the streets are children, homeless and willing to do anything to survive, just like you. You are free to murder anyone you please and these kids often carry resources like medicine which you give to infected people and postpone the spread of the plague, leaving you with more time to help cure it.
And this is the choice you must make, do you murder these innocent children to help save the lives of others? If so how much is too much? You also have to consider what damage this will do to the town, if you kill too many, how will the town continue after the plague? If nothing else, it puts bioshock's little sister moral choice to shame.

So that's all I wanted to say, feel free to disagree. Please keep the hateful, obnoxious comments to a minimum, I'd like to keep this civil. Thanks for reading.
 

Mxthe

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I partly agree about the missile command section, the thing you have to understand is, everything is relative to the eye who perceives it.

What might me a moral choice for you, will probably be a calculation for others, and vice versa.

It depends HOW you look at it, someone who does sets himself to imagine that those cities ARE full of people will probably agree with what James said.

But in the end if you just play it as an arcade survival game, all you want are more points, so yes, it will be a calculation.

Good reading.
 

BlindTom

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Things like character and plot do not equal mechanics. The games you mention do include narrative mechanics but missile command is comprised almost exclusively of narrative mechanics. That's what makes it a good example.
 

RYjet911

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Remember that during the time of Missile Command, games required a lot more imagination, where as these days we have cutscenes, scripted sequences and photorealistic graphics. Those pixels you bash for not having backstory or description, in those times, were your lives. While motivation was high score, not just to save them, you could either try to save them all and get bonuses for saving them, or let all but one die out and just focus defending that.
 

mrc390

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BlindTom said:
Things like character and plot do not equal mechanics. The games you mention do include narrative mechanics but missile command is comprised almost exclusively of narrative mechanics. That's what makes it a good example.
I presume you're talking about Pathologic. I wasn't using it as an example of Narrative Mechanics, I was using it as an example of a well executed moral choice system.
 

BlindTom

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mrc390 said:
BlindTom said:
Things like character and plot do not equal mechanics. The games you mention do include narrative mechanics but missile command is comprised almost exclusively of narrative mechanics. That's what makes it a good example.
I presume you're talking about Pathologic. I wasn't using it as an example of Narrative Mechanics, I was using it as an example of a well executed moral choice system.
But, but the episode you're complaining about is a demonstration of narrative mechanics....
 

mrc390

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RYjet911 said:
Remember that during the time of Missile Command, games required a lot more imagination, where as these days we have cutscenes, scripted sequences and photorealistic graphics. Those pixels you bash for not having backstory or description, in those times, were your lives. While motivation was high score, not just to save them, you could either try to save them all and get bonuses for saving them, or let all but one die out and just focus defending that.
I understand how it could have had a good moral choice back then, but it's not 1980 anymore. If it is not relevant anymore I don't see why they should have mentioned it.
 

BlindTom

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mrc390 said:
RYjet911 said:
Remember that during the time of Missile Command, games required a lot more imagination, where as these days we have cutscenes, scripted sequences and photorealistic graphics. Those pixels you bash for not having backstory or description, in those times, were your lives. While motivation was high score, not just to save them, you could either try to save them all and get bonuses for saving them, or let all but one die out and just focus defending that.
I understand how it could have had a good moral choice back then, but it's not 1980 anymore. If it is not relevant anymore I don't see why they should have mentioned it.
I understand how the breton lais might have had good rhythmic structure back then, but it's not middle england anymore. Obviously we have nothing to learn from early incarnations of our art and culture.
 

mrc390

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BlindTom said:
mrc390 said:
BlindTom said:
Things like character and plot do not equal mechanics. The games you mention do include narrative mechanics but missile command is comprised almost exclusively of narrative mechanics. That's what makes it a good example.
I presume you're talking about Pathologic. I wasn't using it as an example of Narrative Mechanics, I was using it as an example of a well executed moral choice system.
But, but the episode you're complaining about is a demonstration of narrative mechanics....
Yes, but that's not my biggest issue, for the most part I discussed how they stated Missile Command has "the best and most difficult moral choice any video game has ever presented" which I thought was simply not true.
 

BlindTom

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mrc390 said:
BlindTom said:
mrc390 said:
BlindTom said:
Things like character and plot do not equal mechanics. The games you mention do include narrative mechanics but missile command is comprised almost exclusively of narrative mechanics. That's what makes it a good example.
I presume you're talking about Pathologic. I wasn't using it as an example of Narrative Mechanics, I was using it as an example of a well executed moral choice system.
But, but the episode you're complaining about is a demonstration of narrative mechanics....
Yes, but that's not my biggest issue, for the most part I discussed how they stated Missile Command has "the best and most difficult moral choice any video game has ever presented" which I thought was simply not true.
Only in terms of how it functions as a narrative mechanic. The other justifications come from a very personalised and therefore subjective context. That's not the sort of thing you can argue against without sounding like a preposterously snobbish elitist.
 

mrc390

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BlindTom said:
mrc390 said:
RYjet911 said:
Remember that during the time of Missile Command, games required a lot more imagination, where as these days we have cutscenes, scripted sequences and photorealistic graphics. Those pixels you bash for not having backstory or description, in those times, were your lives. While motivation was high score, not just to save them, you could either try to save them all and get bonuses for saving them, or let all but one die out and just focus defending that.
I understand how it could have had a good moral choice back then, but it's not 1980 anymore. If it is not relevant anymore I don't see why they should have mentioned it.
I understand how the breton lais might have had good rhythmic structure back then, but it's not middle england anymore. Obviously we have nothing to learn from early incarnations of our art and culture.
I believe we can learn most from an element in its most refined form, it's a much better reference point. If very few games ever used moral choice, then Missile Command would be relevant, but everything it does has been done and done better.
 

grumbel

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In it you have six cities and three missile bases and you lose when you lose all six cities, so do you sacrifice all but one city so you can maximize survival chance or try save them all? They stated it had "the best and most difficult moral choice any video game has ever presented'. But I don't see it as a moral choice, because these aren't cities full of people, there pixels.
Simply put: Immersion is a choice. In all games those virtual people are nothing more then pixels and polygons, far away far away what a real human would look like or do. So if you want to see the cities as cities instead of just sprites in a simple game, you can do that, its a choice you make to get immersed in the game or not. Better graphics can of course help, but are by no means a guarantee for anything.

I am not saying that Missile Command is the best example for moral choice, but I certainly can see where they are coming from, especially given the time the game was created in. The moral choice in Missile Command is also interesting as it is not a game mechanic, you don't get "20 paragon points" when you save a city and "20 asshole points" when you don't. The result of your choice is simply the result of your choice with no extra baggage tacked on to tell you how good or bad the choice was. I personally would love to see more games going that route of making moral choice simply about the choice, not about the result.
 

BlindTom

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mrc390 said:
BlindTom said:
mrc390 said:
RYjet911 said:
Remember that during the time of Missile Command, games required a lot more imagination, where as these days we have cutscenes, scripted sequences and photorealistic graphics. Those pixels you bash for not having backstory or description, in those times, were your lives. While motivation was high score, not just to save them, you could either try to save them all and get bonuses for saving them, or let all but one die out and just focus defending that.
I understand how it could have had a good moral choice back then, but it's not 1980 anymore. If it is not relevant anymore I don't see why they should have mentioned it.
I understand how the breton lais might have had good rhythmic structure back then, but it's not middle england anymore. Obviously we have nothing to learn from early incarnations of our art and culture.
I believe we can learn most from an element in its most refined form, it's a much better reference point. If very few games ever used moral choice, then Missile Command would be relevant, but everything it does has been done and done better.
Most people would consider the most refined or purest form- and therefore the best reference point- to be the element in isolation, or as it first appeared. Alternatively most people can learn best when their teacher talks about something that they know and/or care about. If you think you can demonstrate narrative mechanics better using other games as examples I urge you to do so. The more poeple taking part in these kinds of discussions the better.
 

Kahunaburger

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Missile command is not the example, it's just an example. It's easy to make a point about a simple game in 7-10 minutes. Although I think it kind of highlights an issue with narrative mechanics - do they only work in very simple games? I can't imagine how narrative mechanics might function in Planescape: Torment, for instance.
 

BlindTom

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Kahunaburger said:
Missile command is not the example, it's just an example. It's easy to make a point about a simple game in 7-10 minutes. Although I think it kind of highlights an issue with narrative mechanics - do they only work in very simple games? I can't imagine how narrative mechanics might function in Planescape: Torment, for instance.
Torment is brimmming with narrative mechanics. Narrative mechanics are simply game mechanics that support the narrative rather than purely the gameplay. The Nameless Ones regeneration is a narrative mechanic, whilst magic missilde doing 1D4+1 damage is not.

One of my favourite narrative mechanics in Planescape:Torment is the [intention] tags in dialogue. Even if you do not choose these dialogue options you see that you had the opportunity to play nameless one as a liar or a fanatic. You will puzzle over options like:

1. Lie:Tell me and I will let you go.

2. Truth:Tell me and I will let you go.

3. Oath:Tell me and I will let you go.

and whilst they are almost identical, having tiny mechanical effects such as minor changes to alignment meters. The effect upon the player and their perceptions of themselves and the character they are playing is much more profound.
 

AdumbroDeus

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mrc390 said:
RYjet911 said:
Remember that during the time of Missile Command, games required a lot more imagination, where as these days we have cutscenes, scripted sequences and photorealistic graphics. Those pixels you bash for not having backstory or description, in those times, were your lives. While motivation was high score, not just to save them, you could either try to save them all and get bonuses for saving them, or let all but one die out and just focus defending that.
I understand how it could have had a good moral choice back then, but it's not 1980 anymore. If it is not relevant anymore I don't see why they should have mentioned it.
Because minimalism and implication are still extremely valid narrative mechanics. The people who don't realize the implications of it simply don't think about the game at all. It leads very directly to what the EC folks said, and it would be especially obvious to anyone that was living during the cold war when this was a clear and present danger.
 

Kahunaburger

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BlindTom said:
Kahunaburger said:
Missile command is not the example, it's just an example. It's easy to make a point about a simple game in 7-10 minutes. Although I think it kind of highlights an issue with narrative mechanics - do they only work in very simple games? I can't imagine how narrative mechanics might function in Planescape: Torment, for instance.
Torment is brimmming with narrative mechanics. Narrative mechanics are simply game mechanics that support the narrative rather than purely the gameplay. The Nameless Ones regeneration is a narrative mechanic, whilst magic missilde doing 1D4+1 damage is not.

One of my favourite narrative mechanics in Planescape:Torment is the [intention] tags in dialogue. Even if you do not choose these dialogue options you see that you had the opportunity to play nameless one as a liar or a fanatic. You will puzzle over options like:

1. Lie:Tell me and I will let you go.

2. Truth:Tell me and I will let you go.

3. Oath:Tell me and I will let you go.

and whilst they are almost identical, having tiny mechanical effects such as minor changes to alignment meters. The effect upon the player and their perceptions of themselves and the character they are playing is much more profound.
If you consider those to be narrative mechanics, basically every game is nothing but narrative mechanics.
 

BlindTom

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Kahunaburger said:
BlindTom said:
Kahunaburger said:
Missile command is not the example, it's just an example. It's easy to make a point about a simple game in 7-10 minutes. Although I think it kind of highlights an issue with narrative mechanics - do they only work in very simple games? I can't imagine how narrative mechanics might function in Planescape: Torment, for instance.
Torment is brimmming with narrative mechanics. Narrative mechanics are simply game mechanics that support the narrative rather than purely the gameplay. The Nameless Ones regeneration is a narrative mechanic, whilst magic missilde doing 1D4+1 damage is not.

One of my favourite narrative mechanics in Planescape:Torment is the [intention] tags in dialogue. Even if you do not choose these dialogue options you see that you had the opportunity to play nameless one as a liar or a fanatic. You will puzzle over options like:

1. Lie:Tell me and I will let you go.

2. Truth:Tell me and I will let you go.

3. Oath:Tell me and I will let you go.

and whilst they are almost identical, having tiny mechanical effects such as minor changes to alignment meters. The effect upon the player and their perceptions of themselves and the character they are playing is much more profound.
If you consider those to be narrative mechanics, basically every game is nothing but narrative mechanics.
I'm having trouble thinking of any in call of duty.
 

bombadilillo

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OP how do you expect any game to have a meaningful moral choice, Its not real people, its just pixels. Thats an odd argument to use about a video game in general. How can movies represent moral dilemmas, there just actors.

You then make the same moral distinction on a small scale, (save one child by sacrificing another) as missile command did. I fail to see why the more primitive graphics have to do with anything. The game you described isn't moral at all, its just a calculation of who lives and dies.

In short you just said the same thing as extra credits using a different example and for no reason at all think yours is better....