My 'issue' with certain gender and sexuality labels

[Creator002]

I don't know.I feel a lot of these people are in their teens or early 20s and just think they're this or that. Not to say they're wrong, but many would be. I used to think I was asexual (was just slower than others at realising my sexuality), then bisexual (figuring it out) and now heterosexual (I'm 24, male and have had a romantic, but not sexual relationship with a female and do not find men sexually attractive). I think most people will go through a stage thinking they're one thing or another before coming to terms with whatever they actually are.
As for what people are, if I don't understand, I'll ask. If I don't get the chance, doesn't matter then as I've never met one. If they're in my face and they talk like it's their whole identity, I'll tell them to fuck off or be more interesting.
Facebook has a good way to handle gender. They give you choices of male, female and custom as well as which pronoun you prefer (he, she, they). I changed mine to Cis White Male Scum with he as the pronoun.

 

[Twintix]

Sometimes you get this in real life - some US college or university was (or is) trying to remove all the gendered pronouns (He, she, his, hers, etc.) and replace them with gender neutral pronouns for all students and faculty. I don't know if it ever got off the ground or if it was just some sort of pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking. But for the most part, people are quite a bit more agreeable when they meet face to face. And frankly, much of the time it's just plain easier to call a transsexual by their preferred pronoun; we're so wired to call someone with breasts and wearing a dress "she" that if a male-to-female transsexual wearing a dress and having breast implants (or just a stuffed bra) wants you to refer to them as "her", it's just easier to go along with it. Mostly, it's the online discussions that are idiotic because it's the internet and it's just stupid that way sometimes.

There actually is a kindergarten here in Sweden that tried (or still does, it's been a few years since I heard about it) that as well. According to rumors, they pretty much only had books about same-sex relationships (Though this is just a rumor and might be an exaggeration) and refered to everyone visiting them by the gender-neutral "hen", which is a combination of "han"solo (male) and "hon" (female).

They've got the best of intentions, but I'm not sure if they're going about this the right way. It's like the parents who called their child Storm and refused to tell anyone what gender he/she was because "he/she should be able to decide for hirself". Now, this assumes that they're not telling the kid their gender either, but I don't think actions like these, well-intentioned as they are, will help the kid as much as confuse hir when they start school. (Which they might've; It's been about six years since I heard that story)

Well, in the end, just have people tell you which pronouns they prefer. I think that's the easiest way of doing things.

...Unless they're complete jerks about it. Then screw those guys and don't talk to them anymore. D<

 

[Something Amyss]

There actually is a kindergarten here in Sweden that tried (or still does, it's been a few years since I heard about it) that as well. According to rumors, they pretty much only had books about same-sex relationships (Though this is just a rumor and might be an exaggeration) and refered to everyone visiting them by the gender-neutral "hen", which is a combination of "han"solo (male) and "hon" (female).

Who did this?

Did they do so as a default, or wholly?

There's nothing really wrong with the former, but the latter would annoy a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooot of people.

They've got the best of intentions, but I'm not sure if they're going about this the right way. It's like the parents who called their child Storm and refused to tell anyone what gender he/she was because "he/she should be able to decide for hirself". Now, this assumes that they're not telling the kid their gender either, but I don't think actions like these, well-intentioned as they are, will help the kid as much as confuse hir when they start school. (Which they might've; It's been about six years since I heard that story)

I have to ask: how do you see this being a problem/detriment for the child? The only way I can see a problem is if the kid gets picked on for it, but by that logic gay parents are also harmful.

Sometimes you get this in real life - some US college or university was (or is) trying to remove all the gendered pronouns (He, she, his, hers, etc.) and replace them with gender neutral pronouns for all students and faculty.

Where? This sounds like a Snopes rumour, and the most I can find via Google or news sites is a handful of Unis which have recognised "they" as an acceptable pronoun and one school which has removed the words "Mr." and "Mrs." from all official correspondence. No plans like this came up, let alone completed deals.

Neither of these is particularly dramatic, though I have no idea if the latter would actually be in any way beneficial.

we're so wired to call someone with breasts and wearing a dress "she" that if a male-to-female transsexual wearing a dress and having breast implants (or just a stuffed bra) wants you to refer to them as "her", it's just easier to go along with it.

Easier and accurate.

Couple of other points: transwomen can have real breasts like ciswomen. They get them in more or less the same way, too.

Additionally, one might wonder how one handles someone with breasts and no dress. Wired though it may be, women in pants aren't exactly new, and it seems like the simplicity here ends up somewhat lacking.

 

[Twintix]

There actually is a kindergarten here in Sweden that tried (or still does, it's been a few years since I heard about it) that as well. According to rumors, they pretty much only had books about same-sex relationships (Though this is just a rumor and might be an exaggeration) and refered to everyone visiting them by the gender-neutral "hen", which is a combination of "han"solo (male) and "hon" (female).

Who did this?

Did they do so as a default, or wholly?

There's nothing really wrong with the former, but the latter would annoy a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooot of people.

I don't really remember what the place was called, and they were mostly rumors anyway.

Not saying anything was wrong with the former. I used to think "What, are you going to pretend that heterosexual relationships are unusual by doing this?", but I later realized that most of the kids are probably going to see a lot of hetero relationships anyway, so the amount of kids' books with them might not matter in the end. But I think a good mix of both is the best. ^^

They've got the best of intentions, but I'm not sure if they're going about this the right way. It's like the parents who called their child Storm and refused to tell anyone what gender he/she was because "he/she should be able to decide for hirself". Now, this assumes that they're not telling the kid their gender either, but I don't think actions like these, well-intentioned as they are, will help the kid as much as confuse hir when they start school. (Which they might've; It's been about six years since I heard that story)

I have to ask: how do you see this being a problem/detriment for the child? The only way I can see a problem is if the kid gets picked on for it, but by that logic gay parents are also harmful.

Well, as I said, I just assumed that the parents didn't tell the kid their gender either. Perhaps they did.

I was just thinking along the lines of it, perhaps, being easier to choose if you have a...starting point, so to speak. It's a bit hard to explain, it's moreso a gut feeling rather than any kind of logic.

Then again, kids are kids and they adapt easily. Maybe I'm completely wrong. And there's no malice behind any of the opinions and decisions, so I'm not completely opposed to it.

 

[inmunitas]

transwomen can have real breasts like ciswomen. They get them in more or less the same way, too.

Non-trans men can develop breasts too, usually during puberty, that's just the body reacting to hormones.

 

[Combustion Kevin]

Hey, guys, you ready for a controversial opinion?
yeah? here goes:

What you identify as is irrelevant.
What matters is what you do.

Lemme tell you this, I'm dutch, and the dutch language does not have a specific word for "gender", we only describe the biological sex in both administration and our pronouns.

"How uninclusive!"

Maybe, but here's the kicker, trans people are still very much present, and their acceptance is widely championed by the minor celebrities that our country enjoys.
You see, we don't have special PR names for people who fall outside the traditional gender spectrum, they are "just that kinda (wo)man.", if they feel like they're something else on the inside they can change that, we have the technology, but if they enjoy things that are typically un(wo)manly, then that is just what they do, no need for a label.

What I, personally, don't get is why people need to tell the world they're Genderwhathaveyou for not conforming to a standard that, frankly, nobody really conforms to anyway, every man has a soft side and every woman is not a super delicate flower at all times, it doesn't need a banner and certainly not a rallying cry, you're just the kind of person that does these things.

 

[Terminal Blue]

This thread is interesting because it's caught me at the point of beginning to identify less and less as a "girly boy" and more and more as genderqueer, something which is forcing me to rethink my own attitude towards a lot of things I previously had difficulty understanding. Obviously, I can't speak for all people who identify as genderqueer, it's a very diverse category (duh!) so let me speak for myself.

For a long time, I have not accepted the existence of a thing called gender identity. I have a very strong anti-identitarian streak when it comes to gender, in that I think not only is it bullshit that a person with one body part is assumed to be fundamentally different to a person with an inverted version of the same bodypart purely on the basis of the external appearance of their bodies. I also reject the notion that describing things as "manly" or "girly" is anything other than culturally specific delusions. The mere fact that a person can be a "girly boy" already illustrates (or should) that there's nothing to "girlyness" which is specific to girls.

There are two responses to this. One is apathy, which is the course I've always taken. It is to say that "well, gender doesn't matter so it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about me or how anyone interprets me". That's worked for a while, but lately it's not working out for me. After all, whether or not I accept that my gender doesn't mean anything doesn't mean anyone else feels the same. As anyone with a single gender studies class under their belts could tell you, we live in a world where gender is real. Typically, the first thing which is said when a baby emerges from the womb is whether it is a boy or a girl (or an "oh dear") and that single pronouncement then sets the course for its entire life. There is no choice in that, we don't get to speak up and say "um.. excuse me, I'm not sure I want you to treat me in this way based on this superficial observation of my body you have done now".

Thus, for me, identifying as genderqueer has been about reclaiming that right, even if it can only ever be partially realised. It's about refusing to give an answer to the question (which people will, amazingly, still come up and ask you in the street) of whether you're a boy or a girl, because however much you want to believe gender is meaningless that's a question you will constantly, constantly be called upon to answer through your actions, your behaviour, your dress, your body. There is no space in this world where it's possible for that answer genuinely, truly not to matter, but that doesn't mean it's pointless to try and create one, I think.

In short, being a "girly boy" means still accepting that the categories of "boy" and "girly" are real, and that they are authentic descriptions of myself and say something about me. I reject that point, and while calling myself "genderqueer" may be similarly meaningless, it functions as a necessary point of resistance in a system in which gender still is meaningful, whatever people might like to think.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, as I said, I just assumed that the parents didn't tell the kid their gender either. Perhaps they did.

I was just thinking along the lines of it, perhaps, being easier to choose if you have a...starting point, so to speak. It's a bit hard to explain, it's moreso a gut feeling rather than any kind of logic.

Then again, kids are kids and they adapt easily. Maybe I'm completely wrong. And there's no malice behind any of the opinions and decisions, so I'm not completely opposed to it.

From my totally biased perspective, it seems that it's harder to undo than to do, so once you've made that "Starting point," you've instantly made it harder for anyone who goes against the stream. Now, maybe there's an argument that trans individuals represent a current estimate of less than one percent, and maybe we shouldn't build society's concerns around minorities, but I'm always a fan of thhe "veil of ignorance" principle: design your society without knowing where you'll end up in it.

Of course, having been on the other side of those odds, I know it screwed me up. I'm not sure the reverse would be true if gender wasn't defined externally beforehand. In fact, I imagine that if we didn't have a starting point, the 99% of the population that was cis would have zero problem "discovering" that. Does that make sense? Like, I'm not being sarcastic or anything, it's just that my perspective is *very* driven by my own experiences. Well, and the experiences I've heard from others.

Basically, the point is that this seems very much to be an issue of minimal (probably no) harm to one group versus demonstrable harm to another. It's not like we're talking about forcing your son to wear a dress and call himself Susie, or something.

Strangely relevant (lyrics in description):


(completely unrelated to the topic, but I've always loved your avatar, and I rarely actually speak with you, so it never comes up)

Non-trans men can develop breasts too, usually during puberty, that's just the body reacting to hormones.

But they totally don't wear dresses. Ever.

Or so I hear. >.>

But yes, I was mostly just thinking about the idea that specifically the breasts of someone presenting as a woman were in some way fake (implants or padding). There are a number of reasons cismen can develop breast tissue.

 

[Tono Makt]

Sometimes you get this in real life - some US college or university was (or is) trying to remove all the gendered pronouns (He, she, his, hers, etc.) and replace them with gender neutral pronouns for all students and faculty.

Where? This sounds like a Snopes rumour, and the most I can find via Google or news sites is a handful of Unis which have recognised "they" as an acceptable pronoun and one school which has removed the words "Mr." and "Mrs." from all official correspondence. No plans like this came up, let alone completed deals.

Neither of these is particularly dramatic, though I have no idea if the latter would actually be in any way beneficial.

Here we are - University of Tennessee ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/university-of-tennessee-switches-genderspecific-pronouns-he-and-she-for-xe-and-ze-to-promote-inclusivity-10478034.html ), of all places. It looks like the university took this off the table after a bit of a backlash.

I would have linked to The Tennesseean, but they require you to complete a survey or sign up to read the entire article. Argh. Search on Google will pull up dozens of article on it. Looks like other US Universities are thinking along the same lines, too.

 

[Something Amyss]

Here we are - University of Tennessee ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/university-of-tennessee-switches-genderspecific-pronouns-he-and-she-for-xe-and-ze-to-promote-inclusivity-10478034.html ), of all places.

The University of Tennessee has asked tutors to consider asking students which pronouns they wish to be addressed by, warning against assuming gender-binary pronouns "he" and "she".

Emphasis mine. This is a far cry from the claimed position:

Sometimes you get this in real life - some US college or university was (or is) trying to remove all the gendered pronouns (He, she, his, hers, etc.) and replace them with gender neutral pronouns for all students and faculty.

Emphasis still mine.

This is kind of a problem for me. The above statement regarding the story is completely reasonable: consider asking people what they would prefer to be called. This somehow turns into the removal of gendered language. This strikes me less as an assault on gendered language and more an extension of the "don't be a dick" policy sites like this use (though I think it's don't be a jerk here). The only places I see this being reported as anything else are sites like Fox News and Breitbart.

Is their actual position (consider that trans people might exist) really that big a problem for you?

 

[Wary Wolf]

My own personal experiences with people who identify trans-gender have been mixed. But I can reflect that it has been a result of my own misunderstanding, of which I am now deeply ashamed of.

The old etiquette has no rules on how to deal with big burly men who wear a dress or a young woman who defiantly claims she is a man. Which shows that perhaps the old etiquette rules need to be updated. My reactions are many parts not really having the proper education or experiences with people who are transgendered.

I hope I have learned enough to give these brave individuals the respect they deserve, but I sadly feel that both society and I have a ways to go.

 

[Thaluikhain]

My own personal experiences with people who identify trans-gender have been mixed. But I can reflect that it has been a result of my own misunderstanding, of which I am now deeply ashamed of.

The old etiquette has no rules on how to deal with big burly men who wear a dress or a young woman who defiantly claims she is a man. Which shows that perhaps the old etiquette rules need to be updated. My reactions are many parts not really having the proper education or experiences with people who are transgendered.

I hope I have learned enough to give these brave individuals the respect they deserve, but I sadly feel that both society and I have a ways to go.

Er...well, you've made the mistake, in your examples, of assuming their gender identity is invalid.

 

[Wary Wolf]

Er...well, you've made the mistake, in your examples, of assuming their gender identity is invalid.

Shames me to admit it, but yeah, in many ways I did (using past tense with more confidence now). That's all a part of growth and challenging your own perceptions. Indeed, I'm not sure my points on etiquette or education are valid either, no one teaches us to be bigoted. Well, except for society and the media. Again though, it is up to us to realize what to take into consideration and what to dismiss as intolerance.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Indeed, I'm not sure my points on etiquette or education are valid either, no one teaches us to be bigoted. Well, except for society and the media.

Two important points there, we (and I definitely include myself in this) are taught to be bigoted. It's not natural, or at least any specific example is not, if we forgot to make a fuss about it it'd go away (I don't mean that it people fighting for equality would stop bothering people who aren't interested in it the problem would fix itself, but that if people stopped going out of their way to preserve inequality it'd fade away).

Secondly, and getting a bit off-topic, it's very common for people to argue against teaching kids about LGBT issues on the basis that they are too young, need to be protected from complicated things or whatever. Only, they are learning about LGBT issues already. For example, the word "gay" is an insult commonly heard on playgrounds. Kids have learnt that it is something wrong.

 

[Wary Wolf]

Wait... So I was sort of on track the first time round with my consideration on education? Well, it's a start. I just don't want to be making excuses for myself by claiming to be some sort of victim of society.

In many ways I was thinking the same thing as you. We need to be teaching kids that "gay" is not an insult and what it means to have a sexuality outside of hetero. I shouldn't be discounting people based on the way they are in my thirties when I should know better. I should have been told decades ago that: yes LGBT issues exist, and that I need to be open minded about people's sexuality.

Bringing it to light earlier on would reduce stigma and save a lot of torment to those of people who aren't in the camp of boring old heterosexuality.

Good luck finding a school that open minded though.

 

[DANEgerous]

To me a lot of it is Oppression Olympics not all but it is a case by case, now if you thin you are 4+ genders I am going to say you are insane. If pressed and you say apart from you sex what gender are you I will say none. Shure I am male but do I *feel* male? No, the sentiment is like saying do you *feel* Pepperoni? No why wold you? What? Question is stupid.