My recent lesson in sexual politics

[JustJeff88]

I have to admit, I find it genuinely funny that a few people here have thought that perhaps I should keep trying to get in touch with her, because a bunch of people in my original post called me a pathetic, creepy stalker for even trying to maintain communication after we said that we would. Fascinating, that...

If she was still with the other guy that she went back to you deserve to be eviscerated for another reason entirely. If she was still going out with him it's pretty low to make out with his gf behind his back.

They had broken up officially weeks before our first date in 2010, but I didn't ask her out until a few weeks later because I felt that that would be bad form. Apparently, as her Facebook message said, she had been talking to him about getting back together for some time, and one thing I have always known about her is that she is very faithful to her boyfriends, which is one of the reasons I fancied her. Apparently he chucked her not long after, but because of our long absence of communication, I never knew.

TO THE OP:
If I might ask, what type of forum did you originally post to? Obviously I don't need a specific site, I'm just curious as to what "sort" of people you presented this matter to, as that might shed some light on their reactions.

Also, at any point did this woman intimate why she was returning to "the Twat," despite the chemistry between you two?

I really don't want to identify the forum, suffice it to say that it is a very large forum with diverse sub-forums, one of which is emotional/relationship matters. I have been a patron of that forum for years and it is strictly moderated and had always been a paragon of insightful criticism and comments in the bucket of shite that is the Internet, which is why I was so dismayed.

She never said why she went back to Twat. I just know that, in the weeks before our first date, they had been talking about getting back together. I may have put her in an awkward position by asking her out when I did.

Oh, I didn't intend for it to come off as impugning his decision (@OP: I apologize if it did). I just disagreed because, IMO, life is too long to live without good memories waiting for "the one" that may never show up.

No need to apologise - I don't care if you disagree with me... in fact, I welcome it. I originally posted because I wanted neutral, 3rd-party insight on how she might feel about things from people who didn't know us. I want to get contrary perspectives so that I may grow as a person. That said, I see no need to be a pillock about it, which you weren't, so thank you for your input.

For those who mentioned me trying to keep in touch with her, that ship has sailed. Sooner rather than later she is going to meet someone else, and while I do not enjoy jealousy, I am not immune to it either and prefer not to torture myself. She's too far away for us to have any sort of relationship (I often miss European rail in this country, because the only option here is to either drive forever or fly, both of which are expensive and one of which is tedious and takes an eternity). I already feel bad because it is in large part due to my own caution and dare I say cowardice that I didn't get a chance to be with her seriously in the first place, and I don't want to exacerbate it by knowing about some other bloke who had the courage that I somewhat lacked.

For the sake of argument, though... how would you feel if you were the lady in this anecdote? Obviously I'd like to here what Lady Escapists think, but any insight is insight. I personally have a rather... unusual attitude (at least for a young man) about sex, I fancy, so my reaction to such a thing would be totally different than another's.

 

[Delsana]

I was going to come in here and say your problem was you had sex before marriage and thus the relationship became highly based on that, but after reading almost all of it I will say I applaud you but you have too much emotions after this and you still did a bad thing by letting yourself fall into a "almost had sex" night with a girl that wasn't into you like that but still wanted action. You degraded yourself.

 

[Actual]

Can only take some wild guesses, but my first thought from reading this was that perhaps she didn't want you to be so passive.

From what you've said here you seem very nice and decent, but apart from calling her to your flat it seems you've never really pushed her to leave this guy and be with you. While that's very decent it could also be interpreted as a lack of passion for her.

/shrug, sorry it sucked for you.

 

[xDarc]

If you're wondering why she isn't talking to you, you invited her over to your place, made her dinner, made out with her, and then you put the breaks on for your own selfish reasons. Talk about frustration and sending mixed signals.

Also, a common thread I've heard from women over the years is that with sex comes emotional attachment. So really, you may have denied her two things.

Either way, I don't think your pairing had much potential. Still, you didn't even take the chance and if you never take them consistently, expect to leave a trail of regrets.

 

[McMullen]

I was going to come in here and say your problem was you had sex before marriage and thus the relationship became highly based on that, but after reading almost all of it I will say I applaud you but you have too much emotions after this and you still did a bad thing by letting yourself fall into a "almost had sex" night with a girl that wasn't into you like that but still wanted action. You degraded yourself.

I think your opinion is a few centuries behind the times, friend. Premarital sex isn't evil, and telling people that they're degrading themselves by almost having premarital sex is just being a dick. Many people use their faith to try to be better people. It's a shame there's still a bunch of people running around who use theirs as justification for being an asshole.

OT: Well, that kinda sucks that she went back to Twat. If you didn't want to have sex then good for you for not being impulse-driven. Still, I'd expect that some women in that position would feel let down or at worst insulted, which seems to have happened here.

I don't know enough about this situation to really have a clear picture, but I suspect the reason she wasted all that time with Twat when she was interested in you was because she was waiting for you to show initiative, and whatever she was looking for, she didn't get. Sometimes women want to see proof that you're willing to jump through hoops for them, and some just get annoyed by that sort of thing. It's hard to tell sometimes. Hollywood tells us that you're now supposed to wait a few years (maybe even decades) until you two happen to run into each other again and then get together, but that's BS. Keep looking. Hope you have better luck in your future relationships.

 

[Delsana]

I was going to come in here and say your problem was you had sex before marriage and thus the relationship became highly based on that, but after reading almost all of it I will say I applaud you but you have too much emotions after this and you still did a bad thing by letting yourself fall into a "almost had sex" night with a girl that wasn't into you like that but still wanted action. You degraded yourself.

I think your opinion is a few centuries behind the times, friend. Premarital sex isn't evil, and telling people that they're degrading themselves by almost having premarital sex is just being a dick. Many people use their faith to try to be better people. It's a shame there's still a bunch of people running around who use theirs as justification for being an asshole.

OT: Well, that kinda sucks that she went back to Twat. If you didn't want to have sex then good for you for not being impulse-driven. Still, I'd expect that some women in that position would feel let down or at worst insulted, which seems to have happened here.

I don't know enough about this situation to really have a clear picture, but I suspect the reason she wasted all that time with Twat when she was interested in you was because she was waiting for you to show initiative, and whatever she was looking for, she didn't get. Sometimes women want to see proof that you're willing to jump through hoops for them, and some just get annoyed by that sort of thing. It's hard to tell sometimes. Hollywood tells us that you're now supposed to wait a few years (maybe even decades) until you two happen to run into each other again and then get together, but that's BS. Keep looking. Hope you have better luck in your future relationships.

I'm Christian, and we're still the dominant religion by far and you may not agree with it but the pre-marital thing is still accepted in society, just the youth seem to fall into college lust pretty early on.

In any case, if you do focus on sex from the get go instead of building a relationship then you're relying on something heavily, rather than what you rely on with your friendships that you DON'T have sex with which is activities, similarities, fun, and information about each other. A relationship essentially. After that relationship and marriage comes into play, THEN you add sex and you add something that complements the relationship not something that overrules it. You'll both want it sure, but it's not a requirement for the relationship to be good because it was always good. Kind of like people get married in 1 year and then have tons of problems because they never knew each other for long enough.

I'm not old fashioned, you're just blind to the way the world still thinks... and a few college majorities of people is not the majority of the way the civilized world thinks.

---

You may hate Christians who are forceful but what I hate is people who assume and take words out of proper meaning.

You may have degraded yourself for that sure, but the real degradation from your actions came due to the fact that you allowed yourself that near-one night stand even though you didn't want it and even though you knew she wasn't interested in you. Then you let her get something out of you and then felt bad that you didn't give her what she wanted.

Perhaps looking at your intelligent phrasing was a mistake as I judged you as possibly wise when it's just knowledge not intelligence or wisdom. A sad truth these days... harder and harder to see who's who.

 

[McMullen]

I was going to come in here and say your problem was you had sex before marriage and thus the relationship became highly based on that, but after reading almost all of it I will say I applaud you but you have too much emotions after this and you still did a bad thing by letting yourself fall into a "almost had sex" night with a girl that wasn't into you like that but still wanted action. You degraded yourself.

I think your opinion is a few centuries behind the times, friend. Premarital sex isn't evil, and telling people that they're degrading themselves by almost having premarital sex is just being a dick. Many people use their faith to try to be better people. It's a shame there's still a bunch of people running around who use theirs as justification for being an asshole.

OT: Well, that kinda sucks that she went back to Twat. If you didn't want to have sex then good for you for not being impulse-driven. Still, I'd expect that some women in that position would feel let down or at worst insulted, which seems to have happened here.

I don't know enough about this situation to really have a clear picture, but I suspect the reason she wasted all that time with Twat when she was interested in you was because she was waiting for you to show initiative, and whatever she was looking for, she didn't get. Sometimes women want to see proof that you're willing to jump through hoops for them, and some just get annoyed by that sort of thing. It's hard to tell sometimes. Hollywood tells us that you're now supposed to wait a few years (maybe even decades) until you two happen to run into each other again and then get together, but that's BS. Keep looking. Hope you have better luck in your future relationships.

I'm Christian, and we're still the dominant religion by far and you may not agree with it but the pre-marital thing is still accepted in society, just the youth seem to fall into college lust pretty early on.

In any case, if you do focus on sex from the get go instead of building a relationship then you're relying on something heavily, rather than what you rely on with your friendships that you DON'T have sex with which is activities, similarities, fun, and information about each other. A relationship essentially. After that relationship and marriage comes into play, THEN you add sex and you add something that complements the relationship not something that overrules it. You'll both want it sure, but it's not a requirement for the relationship to be good because it was always good. Kind of like people get married in 1 year and then have tons of problems because they never knew each other for long enough.

I'm not old fashioned, you're just blind to the way the world still thinks... and a few college majorities of people is not the majority of the way the civilized world thinks.

---

You may hate Christians who are forceful but what I hate is people who assume and take words out of proper meaning.

You may have degraded yourself for that sure, but the real degradation from your actions came due to the fact that you allowed yourself that near-one night stand even though you didn't want it and even though you knew she wasn't interested in you. Then you let her get something out of you and then felt bad that you didn't give her what she wanted.

Perhaps looking at your intelligent phrasing was a mistake as I judged you as possibly wise when it's just knowledge not intelligence or wisdom. A sad truth these days... harder and harder to see who's who.

Some of your comments seem to suggest that you have me confused with the OP. If so, I'm not the OP. Or, maybe you were just switching back and forth between who you were referring to. It would help if you made it more clear.

You appear to be saying that all relationships that involve premarital sex are only based on the sex. Setting aside those who have sex before getting married and stay happily married afterwards, there are many examples of people who date each other for a while before having sex and have meaningful relationships without getting married.

I don't think we know enough about the OP and his friendship with this girl to say one way or another, but I don't think it's fair to assume it was just about the sex, (indeed, if it was, then why did he turn her down?) and I certainly think it's presumptive to just come into this thread and say he degraded himself.

 

[Delsana]

I was going to come in here and say your problem was you had sex before marriage and thus the relationship became highly based on that, but after reading almost all of it I will say I applaud you but you have too much emotions after this and you still did a bad thing by letting yourself fall into a "almost had sex" night with a girl that wasn't into you like that but still wanted action. You degraded yourself.

I think your opinion is a few centuries behind the times, friend. Premarital sex isn't evil, and telling people that they're degrading themselves by almost having premarital sex is just being a dick. Many people use their faith to try to be better people. It's a shame there's still a bunch of people running around who use theirs as justification for being an asshole.

OT: Well, that kinda sucks that she went back to Twat. If you didn't want to have sex then good for you for not being impulse-driven. Still, I'd expect that some women in that position would feel let down or at worst insulted, which seems to have happened here.

I don't know enough about this situation to really have a clear picture, but I suspect the reason she wasted all that time with Twat when she was interested in you was because she was waiting for you to show initiative, and whatever she was looking for, she didn't get. Sometimes women want to see proof that you're willing to jump through hoops for them, and some just get annoyed by that sort of thing. It's hard to tell sometimes. Hollywood tells us that you're now supposed to wait a few years (maybe even decades) until you two happen to run into each other again and then get together, but that's BS. Keep looking. Hope you have better luck in your future relationships.

I'm Christian, and we're still the dominant religion by far and you may not agree with it but the pre-marital thing is still accepted in society, just the youth seem to fall into college lust pretty early on.

In any case, if you do focus on sex from the get go instead of building a relationship then you're relying on something heavily, rather than what you rely on with your friendships that you DON'T have sex with which is activities, similarities, fun, and information about each other. A relationship essentially. After that relationship and marriage comes into play, THEN you add sex and you add something that complements the relationship not something that overrules it. You'll both want it sure, but it's not a requirement for the relationship to be good because it was always good. Kind of like people get married in 1 year and then have tons of problems because they never knew each other for long enough.

I'm not old fashioned, you're just blind to the way the world still thinks... and a few college majorities of people is not the majority of the way the civilized world thinks.

---

You may hate Christians who are forceful but what I hate is people who assume and take words out of proper meaning.

You may have degraded yourself for that sure, but the real degradation from your actions came due to the fact that you allowed yourself that near-one night stand even though you didn't want it and even though you knew she wasn't interested in you. Then you let her get something out of you and then felt bad that you didn't give her what she wanted.

Perhaps looking at your intelligent phrasing was a mistake as I judged you as possibly wise when it's just knowledge not intelligence or wisdom. A sad truth these days... harder and harder to see who's who.

Some of your comments seem to suggest that you have me confused with the OP. If so, I'm not the OP. Or, maybe you were just switching back and forth between who you were referring to. It would help if you made it more clear.

You appear to be saying that all relationships that involve premarital sex are only based on the sex. Setting aside those who have sex before getting married and stay happily married afterwards, there are many examples of people who date each other for a while before having sex and have meaningful relationships without getting married.

I don't think we know enough about the OP and his friendship with this girl to say one way or another, but I don't think it's fair to assume it was just about the sex, (indeed, if it was, then why did he turn her down?) and I certainly think it's presumptive to just come into this thread and say he degraded himself.

I did make that mistake at first, but I didn't bother editing everything. My responses were geared to you, just replace one night stand with whatever you've done.

It doesn't matter if you have a relationship without getting married that's based on sex... if you're not willing to avow that with marriage and become "a unity" then you're really just using that relationship for whatever you're getting out of it, you're not really partners because you won't take that final step regardless of your points. As for your statement about marriages that work.. half end in divorce (though that hasn't raised but you need to understand the statistics to understand) and for the most part, those issues come from early marriages, or poor relationships and yeah some are because the sex isn't good enough but that's mainly because they built the relationship on sex in the first place.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

It's the macho stereotype: If a man does not leap at every opportunity to have sex, he is either gay or a nerd, or possibly a gay nerd. The majority of people who hold this view have probably not had as much "action" as they would like you to believe, as they are unlikely to have run into the sort of situation where "hitting it" caused more problems than was worthwhile. (Either that or they're complete horndogs to whom sex has zero emotional attachment- in which case, let them enjoy the company of people as shallow as they are while they still can.)

As for her reaction, I think I have to agree with this:

Maybe what you rejected as a one-night stand was, to her, a memory that she wanted to bring with her when she was gone.

 

[bpm195]

I cooked her the best meal I knew how to prepare, and we had a great time. Eventually, we ended up on the sofa cuddling, then kissing, then making out/snogging very heavily. At one point, she really surprised me by getting up and straddling me and grinding into me while we kissed - I didn't expect her to be so aggressive as she is normally rather quiet. Shortly thereafter, she dropped a bomb on me by intimating VERY strongly, without directly saying, that she wanted to have sex.

I didn't know they made an aphrodisiac flavored Ramen.

Anyway, though your decision makes perfect sense to me, given the same situation I'd have jumped on it. It'd be a happy ending to a relationship that never really got started. If this were one of those "beer makes me horny" one night stands I'd be on the same page as you, but this was an explosive night of passion years in the making.

 

[McMullen]

I did make that mistake at first, but I didn't bother editing everything. My responses were geared to you, just replace one night stand with whatever you've done.

I find it amusing that you know nothing about me and just assume I've done things that you consider to be degrading myself. You don't know me. Simply assuming that others are less pure than you is a very unattractive trait. Did it occur to you that while I don't object to certain behaviors in others, I don't necessarily engage in them myself? Like how I've never smoked or taken illegal drugs, but don't have a problem with others doing so and support the legalization of marijuana anyway?

To be fair, your moral code, from what little I've seen, seems strict and narrow enough that I've probably done many things that in your eyes constitute degrading myself. I read in my yearbook once that a couple of foreign exchange students at the school didn't like how people here wear white socks. I imagine you have some equally bizarre peeves if what you've said so far is any indication, so you are probably right anyway. Personally, I think that, like the anti-white socks people, your perspective is a little skewed.

It doesn't matter if you have a relationship without getting married that's based on sex... if you're not willing to avow that with marriage and become "a unity" then you're really just using that relationship for whatever you're getting out of it, you're not really partners because you won't take that final step regardless of your points.

I'm going to stop you right there and again try to point out that it's completely possible to have a non-marital, meaningful relationship that's not based on sex. I know many people who do so. Some don't want to bother with the logistics of it, some feel that simply loving each other is enough and don't think they should need some official to recognize their bond, some avoid marriage for tax purposes, and some simply can't afford the marriage that they want.

Where the OP is concerned, I think his decisions show that he was interested in this girl for reasons other than just sex, and that the dinner at his apartment was an attempt to show that he really was into her and that she should reconsider going off to be with Twat. My interpretation is that it was too little, too late, didn't go as planned, and resulted in an awkward situation, as dates sometimes do. That carries its own suite of what-ifs and should-haves and regrets that he'll need to try to avoid being consumed by all by itself. He doesn't need holier-than-thous like yourself to come in and tell him he degraded himself. That's not going to help him make better, healthier decisions in the future, it's not going to help him become more confident, and it's just plain not very nice.

As for your statement about marriages that work.. half end in divorce (though that hasn't raised but you need to understand the statistics to understand) and for the most part, those issues come from early marriages, or poor relationships and yeah some are because the sex isn't good enough but that's mainly because they built the relationship on sex in the first place.

Does that statistic apply just to cases where the couple had sex prior to marriage, or all marriages? How many marriages where the couple waited until after the marriage work out? Where do you get these statistics?