My thoughts on Game of Thrones Season 7 concerning Jamie Lannister (Spoilers)

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Fuck the show, books are all that matter.

And in the books one of three things better happen:
1) Jaime kills Cersei and becomes azor ahai
2) cleganebowl and the hound becomes azor ahai
3) Theon kills Ramsay and becomes azor ahai

If one of those 3 things doesn't happen I'm going to be pretty butthurt.

Was Jamie, Sandor, and Theon born under a Bleeding Star and amidst Salt and Smoke? And have Targaryan blood?

First of all, you're mixing prophecies. Yes, the bleeding star and salt and smoke tends to be used interchangeably, but the Targaryen part has only ever been mentioned in association with the prince that was promised, and not Azor Ahai. A wood witch once told Jaehaerys II that the prince that was promised would be born of the line of his son and daughter if they married, even assuming that her prophecy is correct, the PTWP might very well not be Azor Ahai, or the Last Hero for that matter. There is no certainty that Targaryen blood is needed to make Azor Ahai. Of course I'm also leaving out the very real possibility that prophecy as a whole is bullshit.

That being said, yeah, you could say that Sandor or Jaime were born when the red star bleeds and amids salt and smoke.

The Azor Ahai prophecy goes like this:

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

The red star bleeding could very well be Oberyn's death at the hands of The Mountain in A Storm of Swords, since his sigil is a red sun. In the same book around that time Saltpans was being burned by Rorge wearing The Hound's helmet, and Sandor was left to die by Arya and either nursed back to health or flat out resurrected by the Elder Brother. Jamie losing his hand was the point where his character turned around, started drifting away from Cersei and gained a new lease in life, it was a metaphorical rebirth, his wound had to be cauterized with fire and the perpretators had to salt the hand to preserve it to hang it around his neck. Either that or the moment in the bath with Brienne where he revealed why he killed Aerys and he ends up passing out from the heat and all the steam, followed by a dinner with Roose Bolton who decides to set him free, dinner and the traditional guest right being often referred in Westeros as the sharing of bread and salt.

Loads of people fit these prophecies, and that is by design.

What is the difference between The Prince That Was Promised, and Azor Ahai?

 

[DaCosta]

What is the difference between The Prince That Was Promised, and Azor Ahai?

PTWP is a belief more common in Westeros, or at least its Andal population, and Azor Ahai is the messianic figure of the religion of the Red God from Essos. The First Men in Westeros even have another legend related to how The Long Night ended, that of The Last Hero.

I really hope none of the prophecies are fullfilled and are just ravings of mad people. The whole existence of magic and fate just feels out of touce with the series, especially how OP it sometimes get.

So do I.

Then again the books do push the idea that the difference between highborn and lowborn to be just prejudice and even evil, then turns around and builds a central mystery around a character's lineage that could change everything. Jon's character revolves heavily around being a bastard that has to make it on his own, suddenly finding out that he is secretly the rightful king spoils that.

 

[balladbird]

I don't forsee Jaime killing Cersei immediately.. I imagine he'll torment himself on what to do for half the season, then eventually find Tyrion helping kahleesi and have to choose between his sister and his brother.

Either way his death flag is raised... I've been bracing for his death since the last season ended. >.<

 

[Silvanus]

They said that while they'll diverge from the books, most of the major plot points will stay the same.

I... don't believe them. If (f)Aegon isn't a major plot point, I don't know what is.

 

[Sonmi]

They said that while they'll diverge from the books, most of the major plot points will stay the same.

I... don't believe them. If (f)Aegon isn't a major plot point, I don't know what is.

Aegon will likely get roasted by Dany in TWoW.

He's one of the lies she has to slay, and will probably lead to her being perceived as a villainous invader. A dragon plants no trees though, and she's probably going into the deep end before having a big moment where she saves the world in the end.

 

[Silvanus]

They said that while they'll diverge from the books, most of the major plot points will stay the same.

I... don't believe them. If (f)Aegon isn't a major plot point, I don't know what is.

Aegon will likely get roasted by Dany in TWoW.

He's one of the lies she has to slay, and will probably lead to her being perceived as a villainous invader. A dragon plants no trees though, and she's probably going into the deep end before having a big moment where she saves the world in the end.

You may well be right. But he is the leader of a significant and powerful faction, a claimant. A major character. If the writers do not consider him important enough to keep if they intend to still follow the broad strokes, then I do not trust their judgement.

 

[Sonmi]

They said that while they'll diverge from the books, most of the major plot points will stay the same.

I... don't believe them. If (f)Aegon isn't a major plot point, I don't know what is.

Aegon will likely get roasted by Dany in TWoW.

He's one of the lies she has to slay, and will probably lead to her being perceived as a villainous invader. A dragon plants no trees though, and she's probably going into the deep end before having a big moment where she saves the world in the end.

You may well be right. But he is the leader of a significant and powerful faction, a claimant. A major character. If the writers do not consider him important enough to keep if they intend to still follow the broad strokes, then I do not trust their judgement.

He absolutely is, but he ties in pretty deeply with the House of the Undying subplot, which they botched back in Season 2, along with pretty much any element of prophecy, or backstory about the Blackfyres.

The show version of Dany doesn't have the same obsession with vague prophecy, Quaithe hasn't been seen in years, I'm nigh certain most viewers have forgotten who Illyrio is, and Aegon hasn't been vaguely foreshadowed the way he was in the books. To drop an Aegon bomb would feel like massively jumping the shark for the people who haven't read the books. I don't think it would have translated to the TV show too well.

 

[Thetwistedendgame]

The problem I'm seeing is if Jaime betrays another monarch, people will have trust issues towards him. He's already the notorious kingslayer, I don't think earning the titles queenslayer AND kinslayer are going to do him any good.

 

[DrownedAmmet]

The problem I'm seeing is if Jaime betrays another monarch, people will have trust issues towards him. He's already the notorious kingslayer, I don't think earning the titles queenslayer AND kinslayer are going to do him any good.

I think people will be more understanding if he kills the Queen who literally mass murdered a bunch of people, than when he killed the King who just tried to do that

Unless Cersei can avoid the blame for it? Maybe she can blame Daenarys?? Because who actually knows about the wildfyre stuff? The smallfolk will probably assume it was Dragons... But Jaime knows... fuuuck this could actually be good

 

[Padwolf]

Fuck the show, books are all that matter.

And in the books one of three things better happen:
1) Jaime kills Cersei and becomes azor ahai
2) cleganebowl and the hound becomes azor ahai
3) Theon kills Ramsay and becomes azor ahai

If one of those 3 things doesn't happen I'm going to be pretty butthurt.

As far as the books go, I'm with you on this, I hope it's option 1 though. Book Jaime has done far better than show Jaime. But a lot of characters fit Azor Ahai.

But on topic, Show Jaime. I reckon he will be the one to kill Cersei. She has it coming. Either Jaime or Dany will have her burnt to a crisp. Or Tyrion will kill her, strangle her like he did Shae. Though I think the sweetest death would be if she were killed by Jon or Sansa. That would be glorious.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I really hope none of the prophecies are fullfilled and are just ravings of mad people. The whole existence of magic and fate just feels out of touce with the series, especially how OP it sometimes get.

It's really not though..

I mean, Dany's whole arc is that she's literally The Magic Comes Back [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMagicComesBack] in human form.

It's not really a gritty, low fantasy world at all, it's an incredibly whimsical, high fantasy world full of weird or fantastic shit which everyone ignores (to the point of ignoring the impending frozen-zombie apocalypse) because they're too busy fighting for the spiky chair.

More seriously though, one thing about the Azor Ahai prophecy is that it could literally apply to almost every character in the setting, because it expressing something quite fundamental about the setting and the narrative rules on which it operates. If you want to be the hero (or antihero) you have to make sacrifices.

I'm not sure in the end there will actually be a definitive Azor Ahai reborn, because thematically everyone is. Everyone wants to be the hero, and everyone is going to suffer for it.

(j/k though. It's totally Littlefinger.)

 

[Kreett]

Fuck the show, books are all that matter.

And in the books one of three things better happen:
1) Jaime kills Cersei and becomes azor ahai
2) cleganebowl and the hound becomes azor ahai
3) Theon kills Ramsay and becomes azor ahai

If one of those 3 things doesn't happen I'm going to be pretty butthurt.

If those are your expected then I'd suggest preparing your butt mate

 

[Erttheking]

I like Jon Snow because he is one of the few good men in this grimdark world that is Westeros.

Are you saying book Jon Snow is worse than TV show Jon Snow?

Nah, just that Dany or Jon being AA is too obvious

The Red Lady kept trying to see the Red Lord's chosen, then keep getting frustrated and wondering why she was only seeing Jon. I think it's fairly clear what's going to happen.

 

[happyninja42]

They said that while they'll diverge from the books, most of the major plot points will stay the same.

I... don't believe them. If (f)Aegon isn't a major plot point, I don't know what is.

I think the key word is "most" of the major plot points stay the same. That does not translate to "all".

OT: Like most others, I think Jamie will kill her, it would be a bit of poetic synergy, for him to again, don the mantle of Kingkiller, for pretty much the same reasons he did it the first time. Though this time will of course be more personal, and hurt him more, if not kill him in the process. But I think it will end up redeeming him in the eyes of at least most of the people. I'm sure they are all living under Cersei, collectively shitting their pants, afraid of what she will do next, knowing that she clearly doesn't give any fucks about any of them. To have him come in and remove her as the Mad Queen, would be seen as a liberation I think, to most of the people of King's Landing.

 

[Pseudonym]

I expect Jaime to kill Cercei when Dany attacks or is about to attack Kingslanding to become a double kingslayer, both times in similar circumstances. Cercei might provoke him into repeating some of the mad kings mistakes. I don't even expect the show to dwell too long on Cercei anymore. If the ice necromancers are to be stopped, and are to be given more attention than one battle at the end, the other charactars better finish up their quarrels and try to stop them. I expect dragons will come in handy fighting the ice zombies.

Or the white walkers just win. That would be hilarious if only for how pissed off the internet would be.

 

[gorfias]

Didnt the show say "fuck the books, we're doing our own plot now"?

Yes, they've gone well past the books. And the show is more fun and melodramatic than the last 2 books so far.

Many people are dead in the books, but alive in the show and vice versa. Some, it doesn't matter. Either way, the Knight of Flowers is dead. Didn't matter how.

I took what happened with Cersai (the only truly interesting thing happening in the books) in the books to be totally different than what is happening in the show and it changes 1/2 the plot.

In the books, she is stripped bare and completely shaved. She walks through town center 100% unadorned. This is a middle aged mother of 5? and she is forced to confront her own mortality. What is the point of the endless, ruthless pursuit of power? We are all mortal. Hopefully if we ever get book 6, he keeps to this point: Cersai is broken and done. But in the show? They super impose her head on a super model's body. She learns nothing of mortality in the walk. Just that people are mean to her and she wants revenge, which she gets. Far from being destroyed, she is Queen now.

I hope Jamie does NOT kill her. He has done enough wrong. Schtupping his own sister and even, arguably, raping her? He needs a clean break from her. His character is going through a moral arc in the books. I hope it continues in the show.

As for who will win the Game? Supposedly Tyrion. Supposedly the reason his dad hated him so much is he knew he was not really his dad: the mad king was. And Tyrion is the writer's favorite character.

 

[hermes]

Or the white walkers just win. That would be hilarious if only for how pissed off the internet would be.

I am rooting for that one.

With GOT being season after season after season of power fights, murders, genocide, mustache twirling evil and other cock-measuring actions that only work to trim down the aristocracy and leave the farmlands in shambles, while at the other side of the wall there is a huge zombie army amassing that only a handful of people know about and fights (and only a smaller number can fight effectively, since dragonsteel weapons are extremely rare); I think it will be funny that the white walkers just stomp right through them... Even better, by the time Daenerys and Samwell return, they find that there is little to rule since the Seven Kingdoms are the Medieval Walking Dead setting.

At least, I think it would be more honest to the setting than "they put their differences aside and join forces to fight the undead, and at the nick of time Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion return riding dragons and blasting zombies (and Samwell, Brandon and Arya return to save the day under different circumstances); and it is fortunate they did, because these Zombies are weak to dragon fire. They discover Jon's ascendancy and are so grateful that they make him king, while Daenerys decides to cross the sea again to rule over her people..." Of course, given the reduced time left for the show and their subtle but sure sliding from "gritty and realistic" to "conventionally fantastic", I wouldn't be surprised if the ending is a small variation of what I described before.

 

[hermes]

Didnt the show say "fuck the books, we're doing our own plot now"?

Yes, they've gone well past the books. And the show is more fun and melodramatic than the last 2 books so far.

Many people are dead in the books, but alive in the show and vice versa. Some, it doesn't matter. Either way, the Knight of Flowers is dead. Didn't matter how.

I took what happened with Cersai (the only truly interesting thing happening in the books) in the books to be totally different than what is happening in the show and it changes 1/2 the plot.

In the books, she is stripped bare and completely shaved. She walks through town center 100% unadorned. This is a middle aged mother of 5? and she is forced to confront her own mortality. What is the point of the endless, ruthless pursuit of power? We are all mortal. Hopefully if we ever get book 6, he keeps to this point: Cersai is broken and done. But in the show? They super impose her head on a super model's body. She learns nothing of mortality in the walk. Just that people are mean to her and she wants revenge, which she gets. Far from being destroyed, she is Queen now.

I hope Jamie does NOT kill her. He has done enough wrong. Schtupping his own sister and even, arguably, raping her? He needs a clean break from her. His character is going through a moral arc in the books. I hope it continues in the show.

As for who will win the Game? Supposedly Tyrion. Supposedly the reason his dad hated him so much is he knew he was not really his dad: the mad king was. And Tyrion is the writer's favorite character.

I like the way the show expediently got rid of plots it knew lead nowhere: Remember the Martell? lets kill them in 2 scenes, since they are not so relevant. Remember Baratheon and his army? not important. Remember Rickon and his direwolf? Lets give them inconsequential deaths.

I take it as spoilers for the books since, while it is known at this point they are different beasts, it is also known GRRM told the writers the broad strokes of the story he plans to tell, so I am guessing Jon will also come back from the death at some point in book 6 or 7, his parents will be revealed and Daeneris will eventually cross the sea before book 11...

I don't think Cersai's portrait in the book and series is much different. In the book she learns nothing from her walk, she just gets more spiteful. Even in the books, she is not the kind of character to be confronted with her mortality and the futility of her pursuit and come back a better person... even when powerless, she is vengeful, destructive, malicious and too self-centered to have an epiphany. In the chapters centered around her, you realize she fiercely (and sometimes irrationally) hates a lot of people, and her walk only galvanizes that hatred. She may not pull a Michael Corleone in the books, but not for lack of desire.

Also, it is interesting you think Tyrion will be "the winner", considering book Tyrion and show Tyrion don't share the same fate. He is one of the writers favorite characters, so at this point he developed plot armor but, without much spoilers, I will only say that, if book Tyrion becomes king, his rule won't be long...