I respect you opinion. But what does any of that have to do with rhe situation going on?Silentpony said:
My thoughts on the whole Diablo Immortal fiasco
- Thread starter FakeSympathy
- Start date
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And once again ever one breezes over how shitty the people reacted to this were. I dont see how Blizzard making the wrong choice in any way justifies us not taking any time to talk about the fan reaction. Acting like an asshole shouldn't be justifiable, understandable, yes, but the means by which people reacted to this should be talked about here. Just because it was a corporation doesn't mean its now alright to be vile and jerkish. Yet everyone, including people here, are just brushing it off and turning all discussion on Blizzard.
Huh? That's literally the OP's central point.Specter Von Baren said:
Also, I don't agree, at least not from anything I've been shown to date. Fans have issued mildly hyperbolic complaints on the internet. On a shittiness scale of 1-10, that's barely a 2. If someone shows up at the announcer's home and/or threatens to kill their family, I'll be happy to condemn that action. But getting all flustered over someone saying "Diablo is dead now" is more of an overreaction than saying "Diablo is dead now" was.
After their debacle with Diablo 3 and the Auction House, I knew that something like this was in the works. I figured it would be a Diablo MMO (which I still believe is in the works, as one of their "unannounced projects") that is for all ages, but it makes sense that a Diablo mobile game designed to milk the player-base would be more in line with Activision Blizzard's current philosophy of "money first at the expense of the players".
The phone game will be used to introduce a bunch of new people to the world of Diablo, people of all ages (preferably younger, impressionable types), and then in turn they will announce a World of Diablo, all PGed up to usher these mobile players in to.
Blizzard has no interest in catering to its existing audience. They want the mythical whales to support them in their elder years, and I don't expect a good game to come out of them for the fans of the Diablo franchise again.
The phone game will be used to introduce a bunch of new people to the world of Diablo, people of all ages (preferably younger, impressionable types), and then in turn they will announce a World of Diablo, all PGed up to usher these mobile players in to.
Blizzard has no interest in catering to its existing audience. They want the mythical whales to support them in their elder years, and I don't expect a good game to come out of them for the fans of the Diablo franchise again.
Precisely. Blizzard had more than enough time to see that Diablo 4 is what the fans wanted to see and far in advance say something akin to "No, Diablo 4 is not going to be announced at Blizzcon." If they had done this, even if a lot of the fans had not believed them there wouldn't have been this total shitshow. Some people probably would have still had raged over having a Diablo Mobile game to look forward to, but the reaction would have very likely been more of a "Meh" than anything. Instead, Blizzard teased a big Diablo announcement, didn't inform the fans that the announcement wasn't about Diablo 4 despite the obvious hype that resulted, charged them to go personally see this big announcement, NOT deliver on what the fans wanted, and to top it all off mock the fans for being outraged.Xprimentyl said:
As someone who loved Fallout and Bethesda in general until they announced that travesty that is Fallout 76 I identify with the pain of Diablo fans. Diablo fans actually got it worse because at least there are a few Fallout fans that actually wanted a Fallout game like 76, if there's a single Diablo fan that actually wants a Diablo Mobile game they've kept their mouths shut.
I mean... what's the fan shitty reaction we're talking about? Leaving negative comment on youtube video? Making fun of underwhelming the announcement was? Reading some of the comment about this it sounds like some people think fan decided to set fire to the event and stormed blizzard HQ. At the end of it the only things that suffered was the hype surrounding diablo immortal, not exactly a big loss.
My point being that 3/4ths of Diablo have been a fiasco. Its like when people ask what happened to Resident Evil. Its like dude, there have been 4 good games out of like 27 titles.Lufia Erim said:
Diablo being a fiasco is the norm, the good game was the exception, not the rule.
Um, you guys? Y'know there was already a thread dealing with this, right?
Fine, whatever. I'm really too tired to do quotes right now, so I'm going to try and boil this down to a number of common points.
1) Fan Reaction
Little to say. Some people directly harassed Wyatt Cheng, and those people are scum (or are at least being scumbags). But apart from that, people can criticize DI all they want. And if Blizz did delete comments, then that's a bone-headed move, and if anything, deserves dislikes of its own.
2) Blizzard vs. EA
I've seen people keep bringing up CnC: Rivals as a point of comparison to DI, and I really don't get why. I mean, okay, I sort of get it, but there's a world of difference between the two. This can also extend to Dungeon Keeper, but I'm going to stick to Rivals because it's the example I know best. Namely:
-Rivals was announced with nothing to indicate that EA was working on CnC games beside it (as of this time of writing, apart from an intended remaster, that's still the case). DI was announced in the knowledge of Blizzard working on multiple Diablo projects in addition to it.
-Rivals was announced after Tiberian Twilight (widely regarded as the worst CnC game) and the cancellation of Generals 2. DI was announced after the release of D3, which thoughts on quality aside, was getting new content up till around 2017. CnC was in much more of a "content drought" than Diablo.
-Rivals has no singleplayer and no real story, and what story it does have doesn't even make sense in the game's lore. DI has singleplayer, and acts as an interquel between D2 and D3.
-Rivals was stated to be "the next evolution" of Command and Conquer. DI has never been sold as the "next evolution" of Diablo. In other words, Rivals was sold as a replacement, Immortal was sold as a spinoff.
So, on one hand, when I saw Rivals, I was pissed - about the best thing I said about it was that it got me writing CnC fics again, the first of which was based on said reaction. In contrast, when I saw DI, it was somewhere between "meh" and "that's kinda interesting."
3) Blizzard vs. Bethesda
I've seen people pointing to E3 2018 as an example of what Blizzard should have done. This has been brought up, for ease of reference, I'll put it here - Bethesda announced Elder Scrolls Blades at the event, but closed out with a 40 second teaser of ES6. Now, in hindsight, I get that this is what Blizzard should have done, but while this is more a question of human psychology, I'd like to know why.
We knew ES6 was coming - we've known since 2016. Teasing ES6 is like saying "here's confirmation of a thing that's coming that you all already knew was coming." Now, chances are some people weren't aware it was coming, but I'm left to ask how many? Because that ES6 was in development wasn't some big secret. So, if we shift to Diablo, I've seen some people saying they would have been satisfied with confirmation of D4, but again, that's confirming what we already know. We've known "Diablo something" was coming for awhile - I can't put an exact date on it like ES6 (partly because we know at this time of writing Blizzard's working on at least two Diablo projects beside DI), so Blizzard saying "hey, here's this game you knew was coming, enjoy forty seconds of nothing" isn't something I'm interested in. If you want to do that kind of trailer, I'd point to Metroid Prime 4 as an example, and even then I'm not impressed. Saying "X is coming!" isn't difficult.
So, yeah, fair enough, Blizzard could have done this, but I can only speak for myself that I'd be unimpressed for having forty seconds of my life wasted. Least ES6 looks pretty to look at.
4) BlizzCon is for PC Gamers!
This is something that's been made apparent to me over the last week or so, but I never would have thought that up to this point.
Now, that was probably true at one point, but let's look at the scenario we face. BC 2018. You effectively have six IPs to show off. If we put DI to one side, that leaves us with:
-Diablo (PC, console)
-Hearthstone (PC, mobile)
-HotS (PC)
-Overwatch (PC, console)
-StarCraft (PC)
-Warcraft (PC)
So, on one hand, that's a lot of PC games. But if I confine that to PC-only games, six IPs become three. I'd also like to point out that even before BC 2018, we knew that a Warcraft mobile MMORTS was coming, and that a Diablo mobile game of some kind was coming, so again, I'm not sure what people were expecting. For them...not to be revealed at BlizzCon? Well, maybe, but I find that attitude bizzare. If anything, it reeks of elitism. And while I'm not a fan of mobile games, I'd prefer not to engage in the idea that "those dirty scrubs who play mobile games don't belong at the big boys club."
By extension, if we say that DI isn't meant for Diablo fans, then...so what? Again, if this was a Rivals situation I'd be pissed, but I can't get pissed at a side game. If I got pissed every time a mobile spinoff was released for an IP I cared about, my toilet would be overflowing with urine.
On the subject, I will say that I absolutely agree that DI shouldn't be a PC-exclusive (actually, I'd love to see more mobile games ported to PC and console). But I don't agree with the notion of BlizzCon being PC-exclusive. And while that doesn't affect me, since there's no way I'm ever going to BC (in no small part due to living on the wrong side of the world), I'd like to think that people who played mobile games wouldn't be excluded. After all, far as I'm aware, no-one complained about the dirty console peasants of Overwatch and Diablo joining in.
5) Give the Fans What They Want
I've seen this argument come up a lot in recent times. Technically, it isn't a new argument, in that the idea of "give people what they want" is a common one...from the side of economics. As in, if you're selling a product, it makes sense to sell the product that makes you money. Give people what they want, they'll keep buying your product. However, I've seen this argument made in an artistic context, the idea that a creator (or creators) should only give fans what they want, or at least, should shape the artistic aspects of their product to suit fan demand. The idea that fans have an equal role in the creation, and are therefore entitled to have their desires catered for. This argument doesn't apply 1:1 to Diablo Immortal, but it does straddle it to what I find to be a disturbing idea. One of the benefits of writing for ff.net is that I don't need to worry what people want, I can write whatever I damn well please. If I was writing for a living however, I'd have to shape what I wrote to suit audience tastes because that's how you make a living.
But fine. I've seen it asked...well, let's actually use a quote this time:
-Diablo IV
-Diablo Immortal
-An untitled Diablo game (that I'm wagering is a remastered version of D2)
-Warcraft mobile MMORTS
-Warcraft III: Reforged
-An untitled first person game that involves vehicles
So, to answer the question, you're getting at least 50% of what you want (WC3 remastered, D4), with a strong chance of an additional 25% (D2 remastered), and practically no chance of WC4. Trust me, I'm pissed about that as well. But if we take the question of "give fans what they want" to D4, then it is being given. If the question is put in the context of announcements, then Occam's Razor dictates that there was nothing concrete to show.
None of this is to say that this list can't be criticized. Trust me, I'd rather swap out that MMORTS for Warcraft IV and add something from StarCraft for starters. But thing is, all we know is that D4 is coming, so the whole "not giving fans what they want" thing relies on the assumption that either it isn't coming, or that a concious choice was made NOT to show it, in which case, we can ask why. Again, Occam's Razor suggests that there was nothing concrete enough to show.
Anyway, that's pretty much it. This'll probably be torn to pieces, and that's within everyone's right. Still, that pretty much covers my thoughts, and what I deem to be the main issues. If anything, I think I can lay my thoughts on DI to rest with this, so, um, thanks for the opportunity.
Fine, whatever. I'm really too tired to do quotes right now, so I'm going to try and boil this down to a number of common points.
1) Fan Reaction
Little to say. Some people directly harassed Wyatt Cheng, and those people are scum (or are at least being scumbags). But apart from that, people can criticize DI all they want. And if Blizz did delete comments, then that's a bone-headed move, and if anything, deserves dislikes of its own.
2) Blizzard vs. EA
I've seen people keep bringing up CnC: Rivals as a point of comparison to DI, and I really don't get why. I mean, okay, I sort of get it, but there's a world of difference between the two. This can also extend to Dungeon Keeper, but I'm going to stick to Rivals because it's the example I know best. Namely:
-Rivals was announced with nothing to indicate that EA was working on CnC games beside it (as of this time of writing, apart from an intended remaster, that's still the case). DI was announced in the knowledge of Blizzard working on multiple Diablo projects in addition to it.
-Rivals was announced after Tiberian Twilight (widely regarded as the worst CnC game) and the cancellation of Generals 2. DI was announced after the release of D3, which thoughts on quality aside, was getting new content up till around 2017. CnC was in much more of a "content drought" than Diablo.
-Rivals has no singleplayer and no real story, and what story it does have doesn't even make sense in the game's lore. DI has singleplayer, and acts as an interquel between D2 and D3.
-Rivals was stated to be "the next evolution" of Command and Conquer. DI has never been sold as the "next evolution" of Diablo. In other words, Rivals was sold as a replacement, Immortal was sold as a spinoff.
So, on one hand, when I saw Rivals, I was pissed - about the best thing I said about it was that it got me writing CnC fics again, the first of which was based on said reaction. In contrast, when I saw DI, it was somewhere between "meh" and "that's kinda interesting."
3) Blizzard vs. Bethesda
I've seen people pointing to E3 2018 as an example of what Blizzard should have done. This has been brought up, for ease of reference, I'll put it here - Bethesda announced Elder Scrolls Blades at the event, but closed out with a 40 second teaser of ES6. Now, in hindsight, I get that this is what Blizzard should have done, but while this is more a question of human psychology, I'd like to know why.
We knew ES6 was coming - we've known since 2016. Teasing ES6 is like saying "here's confirmation of a thing that's coming that you all already knew was coming." Now, chances are some people weren't aware it was coming, but I'm left to ask how many? Because that ES6 was in development wasn't some big secret. So, if we shift to Diablo, I've seen some people saying they would have been satisfied with confirmation of D4, but again, that's confirming what we already know. We've known "Diablo something" was coming for awhile - I can't put an exact date on it like ES6 (partly because we know at this time of writing Blizzard's working on at least two Diablo projects beside DI), so Blizzard saying "hey, here's this game you knew was coming, enjoy forty seconds of nothing" isn't something I'm interested in. If you want to do that kind of trailer, I'd point to Metroid Prime 4 as an example, and even then I'm not impressed. Saying "X is coming!" isn't difficult.
So, yeah, fair enough, Blizzard could have done this, but I can only speak for myself that I'd be unimpressed for having forty seconds of my life wasted. Least ES6 looks pretty to look at.
4) BlizzCon is for PC Gamers!
This is something that's been made apparent to me over the last week or so, but I never would have thought that up to this point.
Now, that was probably true at one point, but let's look at the scenario we face. BC 2018. You effectively have six IPs to show off. If we put DI to one side, that leaves us with:
-Diablo (PC, console)
-Hearthstone (PC, mobile)
-HotS (PC)
-Overwatch (PC, console)
-StarCraft (PC)
-Warcraft (PC)
So, on one hand, that's a lot of PC games. But if I confine that to PC-only games, six IPs become three. I'd also like to point out that even before BC 2018, we knew that a Warcraft mobile MMORTS was coming, and that a Diablo mobile game of some kind was coming, so again, I'm not sure what people were expecting. For them...not to be revealed at BlizzCon? Well, maybe, but I find that attitude bizzare. If anything, it reeks of elitism. And while I'm not a fan of mobile games, I'd prefer not to engage in the idea that "those dirty scrubs who play mobile games don't belong at the big boys club."
By extension, if we say that DI isn't meant for Diablo fans, then...so what? Again, if this was a Rivals situation I'd be pissed, but I can't get pissed at a side game. If I got pissed every time a mobile spinoff was released for an IP I cared about, my toilet would be overflowing with urine.
On the subject, I will say that I absolutely agree that DI shouldn't be a PC-exclusive (actually, I'd love to see more mobile games ported to PC and console). But I don't agree with the notion of BlizzCon being PC-exclusive. And while that doesn't affect me, since there's no way I'm ever going to BC (in no small part due to living on the wrong side of the world), I'd like to think that people who played mobile games wouldn't be excluded. After all, far as I'm aware, no-one complained about the dirty console peasants of Overwatch and Diablo joining in.
5) Give the Fans What They Want
I've seen this argument come up a lot in recent times. Technically, it isn't a new argument, in that the idea of "give people what they want" is a common one...from the side of economics. As in, if you're selling a product, it makes sense to sell the product that makes you money. Give people what they want, they'll keep buying your product. However, I've seen this argument made in an artistic context, the idea that a creator (or creators) should only give fans what they want, or at least, should shape the artistic aspects of their product to suit fan demand. The idea that fans have an equal role in the creation, and are therefore entitled to have their desires catered for. This argument doesn't apply 1:1 to Diablo Immortal, but it does straddle it to what I find to be a disturbing idea. One of the benefits of writing for ff.net is that I don't need to worry what people want, I can write whatever I damn well please. If I was writing for a living however, I'd have to shape what I wrote to suit audience tastes because that's how you make a living.
But fine. I've seen it asked...well, let's actually use a quote this time:
To answer that question...okay, let's save time and list what games we know Blizzard is working on. Not including content updates or expansions, I'm talking about actual games. If I narrow it down to this, we're left with:
-Diablo IV
-Diablo Immortal
-An untitled Diablo game (that I'm wagering is a remastered version of D2)
-Warcraft mobile MMORTS
-Warcraft III: Reforged
-An untitled first person game that involves vehicles
So, to answer the question, you're getting at least 50% of what you want (WC3 remastered, D4), with a strong chance of an additional 25% (D2 remastered), and practically no chance of WC4. Trust me, I'm pissed about that as well. But if we take the question of "give fans what they want" to D4, then it is being given. If the question is put in the context of announcements, then Occam's Razor dictates that there was nothing concrete to show.
None of this is to say that this list can't be criticized. Trust me, I'd rather swap out that MMORTS for Warcraft IV and add something from StarCraft for starters. But thing is, all we know is that D4 is coming, so the whole "not giving fans what they want" thing relies on the assumption that either it isn't coming, or that a concious choice was made NOT to show it, in which case, we can ask why. Again, Occam's Razor suggests that there was nothing concrete enough to show.
Anyway, that's pretty much it. This'll probably be torn to pieces, and that's within everyone's right. Still, that pretty much covers my thoughts, and what I deem to be the main issues. If anything, I think I can lay my thoughts on DI to rest with this, so, um, thanks for the opportunity.
Here's a question; who remembers this little thing?
https://us.diablo3.com/en/blog/13607363/ascend-to-victory-with-happy-reaper%E2%84%A2-4-1-2014
You don't always have a literal April fools joke end up being a real game a few years later in an unironic fashion.
https://us.diablo3.com/en/blog/13607363/ascend-to-victory-with-happy-reaper%E2%84%A2-4-1-2014
You don't always have a literal April fools joke end up being a real game a few years later in an unironic fashion.
Here's the thing about all of this. I see a lot of people bashing the fans about their response, calling them entitled and even misogynistic (misogynistic? How even?) all because they are upset about what was the biggest reveal for a lot of people at Blizzcon.
First off, I want to separate this commentary from any and all "fans" that sent threats, insulted, etc, to the devs directly. This is strictly about the general fan reaction to this "game".
Frankly I'm sick and tired of journalists who barely play games and barely know enough about games to BARELY get by in their day to day job. These developers unable to get through a Cuphead tutorial, or beat a single level of Mario Odyessy (A game you can't lose btw), all basically writing these hit pieces that are supposed to appeal to the very people that they attack. I don't understand the mentality of these video game publications who think it is a good idea to attack their readers.
Entitlement is a word that gets thrown at the people unhappy with Diablo:Mobile. Yes you are right, we are paying customers, and we have a RIGHT to get what we pay for. Not just in the games, but in the convention itself. People pay thousands of dollar to come out and support Blizzard, their favorite video game developer, and they come to see all the cool new things Blizzard is up to. But when Blizzard is basically up to nothing, they have a right to be upset about that. When they want the latest and greatest new PC/console game from Blizzard and they only announce a MOBILE game, they have a right to be upset.
The type of gamer willing to pay that kind of money to go to a gaming convention, whether it's E3 or Blizzcon, are not mobile gamers. Not in the sense that Blizzard is trying to appeal to with this game. Sure we all probably have a game or two on our phones, but they are usually just fast and low effort games that we can play while taking a shit, NONE of us come home from a long day at work to sit down for a gaming session and pick up our phones for that experience.
Hell even when people asked if they would port this mobile game to PC, they said no. Blizzard probably could have AVOIDED a lot fo the backlash if they just put this game on PC too. No big deal then, a supplimental Diablo game to hold people over until the next major thing. But nope, only on the phone. So yes the room full of PC gamers booed them.
Top that off with the fact that Blizzard ISNT even making this game. Instead a Chinese game company called NetEase is merely reskinning one of their already existing games to make D:I. So after all this time waiting for the next major Diablo game announcement by Blizzard and we finally get something.....and it's a mobile game (which isn't Blizzard's target audience) and it's made by somebody else.
So yes people were upset.
Imagine going to a fancy steak house, spending 100 bucks on a nice quality steak. The food takes a long time, but you don't care because you know how fantastic the steak will be. But when the waiter finally comes to your table, they set down a bag of Mcdonald's burger patty and some mashed french fries. The waiter then tells you, "We've partnered with McDonald's to bring you this fully fledged meal experience."
You'd be pissed. Spend 100 bucks on a meal, only to get a meal that wasn't even made by the restaurant you wanted it from, and what you are get isn't even a good quality replacement.
That's how supply and demand works. We will give Blizzard money willingly, but Blizzard has to give us what we want FOR that money. If they wont do that, then I guess we go play Path of Exile or something.
It isn't entitlement to want something specific for your money. To expect to get what you are paying for.
This Mobile announcement is just revealing the harsh truth of the gaming industry and of Blizzard as a whole. They are all about the money now, and making a mobile game which is only for the Chinese market frankly is just proof that Activision has fully taken them over.
All the great people at Blizzard have left. Metzhen is gone, the President quit right before Blizzcon itself, and countless devs and great community people have all long since left.
I say it's high time people stop expecting Blizzard to return to the way they used to be. Stop expecting the great games from them because it's clear that they are rapidly on the decline, opting instead to make mictrotransaction-filled games.
First off, I want to separate this commentary from any and all "fans" that sent threats, insulted, etc, to the devs directly. This is strictly about the general fan reaction to this "game".
Frankly I'm sick and tired of journalists who barely play games and barely know enough about games to BARELY get by in their day to day job. These developers unable to get through a Cuphead tutorial, or beat a single level of Mario Odyessy (A game you can't lose btw), all basically writing these hit pieces that are supposed to appeal to the very people that they attack. I don't understand the mentality of these video game publications who think it is a good idea to attack their readers.
Entitlement is a word that gets thrown at the people unhappy with Diablo:Mobile. Yes you are right, we are paying customers, and we have a RIGHT to get what we pay for. Not just in the games, but in the convention itself. People pay thousands of dollar to come out and support Blizzard, their favorite video game developer, and they come to see all the cool new things Blizzard is up to. But when Blizzard is basically up to nothing, they have a right to be upset about that. When they want the latest and greatest new PC/console game from Blizzard and they only announce a MOBILE game, they have a right to be upset.
The type of gamer willing to pay that kind of money to go to a gaming convention, whether it's E3 or Blizzcon, are not mobile gamers. Not in the sense that Blizzard is trying to appeal to with this game. Sure we all probably have a game or two on our phones, but they are usually just fast and low effort games that we can play while taking a shit, NONE of us come home from a long day at work to sit down for a gaming session and pick up our phones for that experience.
Hell even when people asked if they would port this mobile game to PC, they said no. Blizzard probably could have AVOIDED a lot fo the backlash if they just put this game on PC too. No big deal then, a supplimental Diablo game to hold people over until the next major thing. But nope, only on the phone. So yes the room full of PC gamers booed them.
Top that off with the fact that Blizzard ISNT even making this game. Instead a Chinese game company called NetEase is merely reskinning one of their already existing games to make D:I. So after all this time waiting for the next major Diablo game announcement by Blizzard and we finally get something.....and it's a mobile game (which isn't Blizzard's target audience) and it's made by somebody else.
So yes people were upset.
Imagine going to a fancy steak house, spending 100 bucks on a nice quality steak. The food takes a long time, but you don't care because you know how fantastic the steak will be. But when the waiter finally comes to your table, they set down a bag of Mcdonald's burger patty and some mashed french fries. The waiter then tells you, "We've partnered with McDonald's to bring you this fully fledged meal experience."
You'd be pissed. Spend 100 bucks on a meal, only to get a meal that wasn't even made by the restaurant you wanted it from, and what you are get isn't even a good quality replacement.
That's how supply and demand works. We will give Blizzard money willingly, but Blizzard has to give us what we want FOR that money. If they wont do that, then I guess we go play Path of Exile or something.
It isn't entitlement to want something specific for your money. To expect to get what you are paying for.
This Mobile announcement is just revealing the harsh truth of the gaming industry and of Blizzard as a whole. They are all about the money now, and making a mobile game which is only for the Chinese market frankly is just proof that Activision has fully taken them over.
All the great people at Blizzard have left. Metzhen is gone, the President quit right before Blizzcon itself, and countless devs and great community people have all long since left.
I say it's high time people stop expecting Blizzard to return to the way they used to be. Stop expecting the great games from them because it's clear that they are rapidly on the decline, opting instead to make mictrotransaction-filled games.
Way to be in touch with your fanbase, Blizzard.Elfgore said:
I don't care about Diablo, but I can get a few...dozen...reasons they might not be enthused by a mobile game.