Hello there fellow Escapees, I thought this wasn't political enough to warrant placement in that sub-forum. My apologies if I was wrong.
Anyway, on with what I want to say. A while ago I had a discussions with someone regarding nationalism and why I didn't get it. In the end, the one I discussed it with explained it as "pride by proxy" and with that it pretty much ended, I wouldn't get a clearer explanation.
On to the next discussion, it went about Germany and how some current-day Germans still feel ashamed about what the Nazis did in WW2. There was quickly a consensus about this in that topic; it's silly to feel ashamed for what other people did in the past, modern-day Germans have done nothing wrong and have nothing to feel ashamed about.
And now to tie those things together and what I'm confused about. Logically, pride and shame are linked together. They're both the same kind of emotion, pride being the positive end, shame being the negative. However, "pride by proxy" (nationalism being one example of that) is often considered as being a good thing while "shame by proxy" (like what some Germans still feel for the Nazis) is condemned.
And like that, logically, this distinction does not make sense. I agree that it's silly to feel ashamed for what the Nazis did. Most modern-day Germans have no affiliation with the Nazis and cannot be blamed for what they did 60 years ago. However, the exact same reasoning can be applied to nationalism; say, a modern-day Frenchman has no affiliation with the 18th century revolutionaries that sparked the French Revolution, so there is no ground to feel pride in their achievements (just as an example, mind you).
Pretty much the same thing can be seen with the upcoming football World Cup competition. I overheard my dad talking how 'we', as if we're all playing football, have a pretty good chance of doing well, but when the Dutch national team looses people around here always say "they lost", as if that made up affiliation with people they don't know is suddenly gone, there's no consistency. Can this be called hypocritical or just plain stupid?
In short: "pride by proxy" is looked up at, "shame by proxy" is looked down upon but the reasoning why shame is silly also applies to pride, but it's apparently not accepted for pride. And this illogical behaviour makes me go:
So what's up with it? Is this simply one of the silly things of humanity, or am I missing something?
DO NOTE:
I am not against something here, or disagreeing with something. I just don't understand that leeching on other people's achievements. Second-hand pride, if you will. Why would someone want to do that? Is it compensation for not having done anything yourself to be proud about? I'm a bit confused, that's all.
Anyway, on with what I want to say. A while ago I had a discussions with someone regarding nationalism and why I didn't get it. In the end, the one I discussed it with explained it as "pride by proxy" and with that it pretty much ended, I wouldn't get a clearer explanation.
On to the next discussion, it went about Germany and how some current-day Germans still feel ashamed about what the Nazis did in WW2. There was quickly a consensus about this in that topic; it's silly to feel ashamed for what other people did in the past, modern-day Germans have done nothing wrong and have nothing to feel ashamed about.
And now to tie those things together and what I'm confused about. Logically, pride and shame are linked together. They're both the same kind of emotion, pride being the positive end, shame being the negative. However, "pride by proxy" (nationalism being one example of that) is often considered as being a good thing while "shame by proxy" (like what some Germans still feel for the Nazis) is condemned.
And like that, logically, this distinction does not make sense. I agree that it's silly to feel ashamed for what the Nazis did. Most modern-day Germans have no affiliation with the Nazis and cannot be blamed for what they did 60 years ago. However, the exact same reasoning can be applied to nationalism; say, a modern-day Frenchman has no affiliation with the 18th century revolutionaries that sparked the French Revolution, so there is no ground to feel pride in their achievements (just as an example, mind you).
Pretty much the same thing can be seen with the upcoming football World Cup competition. I overheard my dad talking how 'we', as if we're all playing football, have a pretty good chance of doing well, but when the Dutch national team looses people around here always say "they lost", as if that made up affiliation with people they don't know is suddenly gone, there's no consistency. Can this be called hypocritical or just plain stupid?
In short: "pride by proxy" is looked up at, "shame by proxy" is looked down upon but the reasoning why shame is silly also applies to pride, but it's apparently not accepted for pride. And this illogical behaviour makes me go:
So what's up with it? Is this simply one of the silly things of humanity, or am I missing something?
DO NOTE:
I am not against something here, or disagreeing with something. I just don't understand that leeching on other people's achievements. Second-hand pride, if you will. Why would someone want to do that? Is it compensation for not having done anything yourself to be proud about? I'm a bit confused, that's all.
