Nationalism and Nazis. Help me explain the following conundrum

[Pimppeter2]

Yes I know there are such people, so I'm not sure why you're saying false. I know they're there and I'm confused. I do not feel proud for, say, Willem van Oranje kicking the Spaniards out of Holland during the 80 Year War, neither do I feel ashamed for my father crapping his pants on New Years Eve while he was drunk or proud that my mum saved someone from a carcrash.

Sure, the latter is a good thing, and I congratulated her for it, but that feeling just does not arise with me and it confuses me as I don't know where that illogical and nonsensical connection comes from.

What I'm pointing it out is that you personally don't feel that others would, doesn't mean that theirs is illogical.

You may not be a patriot, but doesn't mean that others that are are illogical.

You may not feel pride in your mom saving someone from a car crash, but that doesn't mean that others wouldn't be. Likewise, you may not feel pride for the accomplishments of your nation, but others may. Connection, its wonderful no?

 

[Pandalisk]

Im just gonna toss an idea in the Thread.

I think its more of a mentality kinda thing, We support our community (Or our teams) and we feel good when they do good, we leech of it so we can get a kinda mental high.
When the team does bad our mind doesn't want to feel bad, so it distances itself from the team in order to keep the high.

As for Germany, well the Older generations cant really sweep "World war 2" under the rug, its to big a thing to be able to mentally distance yourself from it.

However new generations weren't around at that time so i'd imagine they would lose this mentality and distance themselves from it, they know they had nothing to do with it. I would take an Educated guess and say the Majority of modern Germans dont feel regret as much as sadness that it happened, i dont think they feel as though its there fault at all.

 

[Cowabungaa]

What I'm pointing it out is that you personally don't feel that others would, doesn't mean that theirs is illogical.

You may not be a patriot, but doesn't mean that others that are are illogical.

You may not feel pride in your mom saving someone from a car crash, but that doesn't mean that others wouldn't be. Likewise, you may not feel pride for the accomplishments of your nation, but others may. Connection, its wonderful no?

I'm not saying others don't, I know they do, but the fact that they do doesn't equal to that feeling being logical. Also, do understand that I'm not saying that it's bad or something, just that I don't get that feeling as it makes no sense at all, and don't understand where it comes from. And that's what I now ask: where does it come from? What's the source behind it? Apparently not logic, but what is it then?

But if you say that that feeling is not illogical, do explain why it is logical to have those feelings of shame and pride by proxy. I think it's not, but if you say it is, go ahead.

 

[Prometherion]

That wasn't the point I was making. The Nazi thing was just an example.

Ok I see what you're saying now. Still think my point about people overlooking their countries' more unpalatable actions is quite relavent. Its strange how English football fans think throwing plastic chairs at Germans on the other side of the piazza is a national duty.

 

[MercenaryCanary]

I from Germany. NOBODY is ashamed of what THEY did. Rant: Not every German is a NAZI! I spent a couple years and everybody asked me if I'm a nazi, not Cool! /Rant
We just learn about it and regret it because it was a sad time. Just like you Americans are going to regret invading Afghanistan.

Sprechen sie Deutsch?

I wonder how Modern German gamers feel about the Numerous WW2 games, if anything at all other than a feeling based on the Games quality.

This is somewhat of a good question.
I was playing Call of Duty 3 with a friend from Germany once.
He was playing as the Americans, and I was playing as the Germans.
We couldn't help but laugh a little.

 

[ZephrC]

I think that, overall, Nationalism is a very bad thing. It tends to lead to things like ignoring the bad bits of history so you can feel better about how awesome you are because you're an [insert nationality here].

America seems to be pretty bad about this right now, which has had the weird backlash of making the rest of the world ignore all the good things America has accomplished, because those must just be stupid bragging too, I guess? Also, Europe seems to be doing a fair bit of projecting with their beliefs about America's motivations. Sorry, imperialism is your shtick, not ours. That being said, America's current image problems are our own damned fault. I wish I could get people here to see that. Ah well.

 

[Pimppeter2]

What I'm pointing it out is that you personally don't feel that others would, doesn't mean that theirs is illogical.

You may not be a patriot, but doesn't mean that others that are are illogical.

You may not feel pride in your mom saving someone from a car crash, but that doesn't mean that others wouldn't be. Likewise, you may not feel pride for the accomplishments of your nation, but others may. Connection, its wonderful no?

I'm not saying others don't, I know they do, but the fact that they do doesn't equal to that feeling being logical. Also, do understand that I'm not saying that it's bad or something, just that I don't get that feeling as it makes no sense at all, and don't understand where it comes from. And that's what I now ask: where does it come from? What's the source behind it? Apparently not logic, but what is it then?

But if you say that that feeling is not illogical, do explain why it is logical to have those feelings of shame and pride by proxy. I think it's not, but if you say it is, go ahead.

Where did nationalism come from? I'd like to say the French Revolution, in which people were fighting to protect the ideals of their country. (Liberty, fraternity, equality). But its been constant in History. The Ancient Greeks and Alexander fought for the spreading of "Greekness" over the other barbaric cultures.

Tell me this, is love logical? Ideas are a thought or conception, or an opinion, conviction, or principle. You may not agree with an idea, though that doesn't make it illogical.

What you find to be logical is not what another does. You may not feel a hint of Nationalism, but thats probably due to the culture you grew up in. People in Nazi Germany grew in a culture of Nationalism.

Saying one idea is irrational compared to another, is in itself completely irrational.

 

[Cowabungaa]

The only example I can think of that matches your description relates to myself and the way I venerate my countrymen's military exploits. As it relates to me, I am more in awe of these events than I take actrual pride in them (I take pride in the fact that I too served in the military, as my ancestors did before me, in not only Australia but many other nations), but I do take pride in the stereotype that most avergage Australians are a hard-working, easy-going, helpful people.

Apart from that I got nothing.

If you're actually involved in the things you take pride in, or am in awe about, I do get it, like you being in the military yourself; you put your own effort in it, I can totally see why one would be proud about that.

Where did nationalism come from? I'd like to say the French Revolution, in which people were fighting to protect the ideals of their country. (Liberty, fraternity, equality). But its been constant in History. The Ancient Greeks and Alexander fought for the spreading of "Greekness" over the other barbaric cultures.

Tell me this, is love logical? Ideas are a thought or conception, or an opinion, conviction, or principle. You may not agree with an idea, though that doesn't make it illogical.

What you find to be logical is not what another does. You may not feel a hint of Nationalism, but thats probably due to the culture you grew up in. People in Nazi Germany grew in a culture of Nationalism.

Saying one idea is irrational compared to another, is in itself completely irrational.

It's not that I do not agree with it, I just don't get it as I'm not seeing any sense in it. If it does; do explain why you think it does. Maybe I've missed something in my comparison between "pride by proxy" and "shame by proxy."

But no, it's not because of the culture I grew up in. The Dutch are usually very passionate about their national football team, which was what one of my examples in the OP was about. These days every freakin' thing is made orange. I work in a supermarket and even the meat products are orange themed. I've been put in front of the TV to watch them play very often, and when they scored my family always cheered abundantly. I never did, I never (and still don't) understand why I should cheer for someone else's achievement. Sure I'd congratulation them for it, but I see no reason for cheering.

Do I know the people playing on that field? Do they know me? Do I have some kind of stake in them winning? And as the answer is no to all those questions, I do not understand why I would cheer. Yet I am looked at funny as if my reasoning does not make sense. So if it doesn't make sense; please do tell why.

As for my question where it comes from, I meant that more as a psychological question. Why does the human brain do that. But maybe what bothers me more is why my brain apparently doesn't do it. It confuses me.

 

[Cowabungaa]

As your friend said:
You just do not understand.

So explain it to me, make me understand. That's what I've been asking since my OP. I don't like being confused, and that profoundly confuses me.

 

[Quid Plura]

Being or feeling part of a bigger thing is something a lot of people strive to. The biggest thing you can be part of right now is your country, or more specifically your nation (not the same things).

Everyone knows the atmosphere that comes with a big tournament, like the upcoming World Championship in South-Africa. When your country wins, everyone is happy, and you share the feeling. Same goes for losing.

In the Netherlands, nationalism is considered a very bad thing. We've watched our neighbours closely, and the last time nationalism got into play in Germany, Hitler got to power. So here, we are very careful about promoting nationalism. This leads to most Dutch people having a strong distaste of nationalism. We don't know why, we just do. This even has the effect that some of our countrymen still consider the Germans to be Nazis. (A recent study even proved that young Dutch people hate Germans more for WW2 than the people who actually lived it). Germans have moved on since then, with good reason.

That being said, the most effective way to promote nationalism in a country is by looking at it's history. Every country in the modern western world does it. Even in Holland, just open a history book to find:
- Nearly nothing about the part the WIC played in the slave trade
- Nothing on the murdering of innocent people in Indonesia in 1947-49.
Instead, we emphasize the good things, while also emphasizing bad things in other countries.

Ok, back on-topic. (Sort of)
The one thing I hate about nationalism is that by emphasizing your country is better, it also means other countries can't be as good.

 

[Crazy_Bird]

*snippy dee snip snip*

Well we (I am German as well) had the football(= soccer) world cup and it was a big thing that everyone had a flag and was showing the country's national symbol with pride and cheered for our team.

The shame thing was actually very common but it starts to thin out a little. We younger people do not feel such a strong connection to this era. I myself had the privilege to have grandparents who could give me first hand testimony of this time period.

One of our prime ministers gave a speech years ago. In a nutshell: he said there is no guilt of younger generations and there is no reason for shame. Yet Germans have the responsibility to prevent similar atrocities. Whether Germans have a higher obligation than other nations or not is something I let everyone to decide for oneself.

Regarding nationalism or patriotism in general: If I remember correctly it was Bernhard Shaw who said: Patriotism is the thought that your country is superior because you were born in it. In my opinion this quote is spot on.

 

[Zemalac]

I'm thinking the problem you're having is that you have a bad definition of nationalism. Nationalism is the strong identification of the individual with the society and the state, often to the point where the state is viewed as more important than literally anything. It can also include the belief that one state is naturally superior to any other, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. It is, in essence, the logical continuation of the old classical republican idea of the "common good," or what Rousseau called the "general will," which (again) is about the subordination of the individual to the collective whole or to the state. Nationalism itself is also commonly associated with the idea of a nation (as opposed to a state, they are different things indeed) which is an organization based around shared ethnic bonds. Nationalism as an ideology is not widely held anymore, not after the disastrous consequences of the nationalistic revolutions of the '30s and '40s, which ended up triggering two world wars: the word itself has come to have a negative connotation.

What you are describing is not nationalism. It is simple patriotism (which is sometimes used as a synonym for nationalism, though they are technically different concepts). Patriotism is love and devotion for one's country, and may contain nationalism, but does not have to.

Now, as for your question: It is not pride by proxy. It is pride by association. Let's take the sports team example. First off: the human mind thinks in symbols. You don't think of the team when you think of, say, the Red Sox, you think of something that symbolically represents the team to you. If you are a big Red Sox fan (insert the name of some local team if you aren't a Red Sox fan) then the symbol representing the team in your mind comes to represent you as well. They are not winning for themselves, they are winning for you. Should they fail, they are failing you personally, and you must console yourself with the thought that you aren't actually associated with them (though, in your mind, you are). You can call it illogical if you want, to the extent that all psychology is illogical, but that's the reason.

I from Germany. NOBODY is ashamed of what THEY did. Rant: Not every German is a NAZI! I spent a couple years and everybody asked me if I'm a nazi, not Cool! /Rant
We just learn about it and regret it because it was a sad time. Just like you Americans are going to regret invading Afghanistan.

Then go ahead and deny the holocaust.

See if your country still feels shame.

He doesn't feel responsible for the holocaust, that does not mean he fucking denies it!
Most Germans were not even around back then.

The Germans didn't even know they were being killed off, they thought they were being shipped out of the country, even then a lot of Germans still wanted the Nazis out, they were just too frightened!

So shut up and think before making such stupid and offensive comments!

You might have overreacted a bit there. Yes, not feeling responsible for the Holocaust is not equivalent to denying it, but you can't say that the German people didn't know that the death-camps existed. The horror of the Holocaust was in the industrial scale of the deaths, which were orchestrated on a level that they were impossible to conceal from anyone paying the slightest bit of attention. Hell, prisoners from the camps were even sent into German cities to work in the factories as laborers before being killed off. You can't hide something like that.

On a related note, ever read the book Night, by Eli Wiesel?

 

[Velvo]

I find both national pride and national shame a little silly. Sure, it's something big that connects people of a region, but it's so arbitrary. Our lives are not defined by such nationalistic tendencies unless we allow it or have it drilled into us from a young age. Reciting the American "Pledge of Allegiance" every day at school rings a bell.

I find it much more satisfying to consider human pride. Pride for being a human being and shame for being a human being. Marveling at our accomplishments and being depressed by our failures as a whole seems much more reasonable than segmenting them up into nationalities. The scientific community makes much more sense to me. There is always collaboration, cause modern science is really hard to do.

If I may quote Carl Sagan, "Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies you will not find another."

 

[Crazy_Bird]

But you can't say that the German people didn't know that the death-camps existed. The horror of the Holocaust was in the industrial scale of the deaths, which were orchestrated on a level that they were impossible to conceal from anyone paying the slightest bit of attention. Hell, prisoners from the camps were even sent into German cities to work in the factories as labourers before being killed off. You can't hide something like that.

You are right yet I reckon (or I know via the experience of my grandparents and their accounts) that not everyone was a believer of the system. Industrials made profit and did not risk the loss of their entire company. Normal citizens were afraid to get deported themselves. Although it is a romantic idea to be a rebel and resist the tyranny people were preoccupied to save themselves from the concentration camps.
This is morally incredibly complex because the far of punishment was the driving force behind the stability of the/any dictatorship.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

If I may quote Carl Sagan, "Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies you will not find another."

Bah, I can find dozens within 50m.

 

[thejdcole]

You speak of pride by proxy and then talk about supporting your national football club as an example. If your team loses, badly, and embarrasingly, then you DO feel shame by proxy. And im sure that noone will think you are stupid for doing so. I think that football teams are meant to represent a country and ALL of its inhabitants (if they want them to). However, a governmental regieme may not represent what people think entirly, so if you did not vote for them (or support them) then you shouldn't feel any shame for what has happened. In fact the same goes for football, if you have no interest in football or your national side, then why should you care if they lose or not.

 

[Legion]

False, I'm sure there are people from France who proudly look on the overthrow of The Old Regime. Such as there are people in America (me included) who proudly look upon the Founding Father's goals and vision.

But yes, there is no real reason to be proud or ashamed of the events that happened in you nation. But then again its like saying you shouldn't be proud if your dad saved 15 people from a burning building. Its not your achievement, but its still something that makes you swell up with pride. Likewise if your father was arrested for raping some woman, you'd feel pretty darn ashamed, though you never did anything wrong.

A good point, but that'd be because you are directly related to them genetically. They are the person who gave you life and raised you (hopefully for the latter anyway) and so people will associate you together, even if you do not share their achievements/perversions or whatever. That's why the phrase "Like father like son" exists and "The sins of the father...".

I don't agree with the logic personally.

On the other hand, being proud or ashamed of a country makes little to no sense because there is no real link between an individual and the land they are born in. My parents were born and raised in England just as theirs were and so on. However, if I were to have been born in Australia because my family had moved there and became citizens then the chances are I'd be expected to be proud of Australia, not England.

 

[Cowabungaa]

That being said, the most effective way to promote nationalism in a country is by looking at it's history. Every country in the modern western world does it. Even in Holland, just open a history book to find:
- Nearly nothing about the part the WIC played in the slave trade
- Nothing on the murdering of innocent people in Indonesia in 1947-49.
Instead, we emphasize the good things, while also emphasizing bad things in other countries.

Not very ontopic, but still a funny thing to mention: we did learn about that. Actually, the whole Indonesia spiel was one of 2 focal points in my last year of History class (I did havo by the way). That included the 'police actions', heck it nearly focussed on them.

In a nutshell: he said there is no guilt of younger generations and there is no reason for shame.

I agree. The thing that confuses me is that there is reason for pride, at least that's what many people say, even though the reasoning why there is no reason for shame is also easily applied on pride. Very weird.

I find it much more satisfying to consider human pride. Pride for being a human being and shame for being a human being. Marveling at our accomplishments and being depressed by our failures as a whole seems much more reasonable than segmenting them up into nationalities.

That too I do not get really. Sure I share biological traits with other humans, but I did not choose to be human and neither was I involved in say the construction of the Great Pyramid of Giza. I might even go as far that it feels weak to me, weak to leech on other people's achievements.

You speak of pride by proxy and then talk about supporting your national football club as an example. If your team loses, badly, and embarrasingly, then you DO feel shame by proxy.

I know, and like I do not feel pride when they win I also do not feel shame when they loose. It's their lacking skills that made them loose, that's not my fault hence there's no reason for shame.