Need some piracy advice....

[Baldr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_%28economics%29

As opposed to a good.

Sorry, but there's nothing in that article that would make software a service as opposed to a commodity. I do see you found a need little discrepancy in semantics though.

So, then, if software falls under "service" and piracy is "theft of service"....why the hell do we have copyright laws of it?

commodity = something of value
good = tangible(physical) commodity
service = intangible commodity

Video Games are becoming a service industry. I already see games as this already. A lot in the industry have adopted this mentality. It just may be a matter of time before we see the change, but it is coming.

 

[Vegosiux]

Video Games are becoming a service industry. I already see games as this already. A lot in the industry have adopted this mentality. It just may be a matter of time before we see the change, but it is coming.

Well, when it comes, I hope the publisher-customer relationships will normalize as well. As I said, a good start would be having to agree to the EULA before you actually buy the game. But then some people might read it and go "Fuck that, not buying on these terms."

Still, it's the only way to ensure this "licensing" model functions, because, for example, if I buy a game then crack it so that I bypass the DRM and the EULA - in this case I never violated the EULA, because I never agreed to it in the first place. You can't breach a contract you didn't sign.

So yea, this entire "licensing" model, I'd be perfectly willing to accept it, if the license agreements were presented before they take my money. Not after. The way it goes with pretty much any other binding agreement between two parties.

 

[targren]

The law (currently) disagrees with you. While I don't doubt that an update will be purchased to make it so, that's just more evidence that the system is bent.

DRM is specifically designed to prevent the "protected" content from falling into the public hands, even when the elapsed time passes and they're entitled to it.

I am going to have to disagree with you. Just because the copyright on something expires does not mean they are required to give you access to it. So they cant prevent you from removing the DRM since its public property but they also dont have to remove it themselves.

THAT is exactly the problem with this whole argument. People don't know their own rights. Contrary to what the content industry and their minions in the government would like you to believe, copyright ISN'T supposed to be a gift-wrapped blowjob to the publishers.

It's supposed to be a trade. In exchange for a time-limited monopoly on distribution, at the end of that time, the covered material is supposed to enter the public domain for anyone to have access to, use, change, whatever. Constant extensions of copyright terms, DRM, and lawsuits that actually pull works OUT of the public domain[footnote]SCOTUS, Golan v. Holder, 2012[/footnote] are ALL violations of their side of the social contract. They want to have their cake and eat it, and they have the money to buy the corrupt lawmakers to make it happen.

Morally, it's a push (that is, a tie), at worst. Piracy is a citizen not holding up their side of it, which is hard for me to chastise them for since the other side isn't, either.

 

[Baldr]

Video Games are becoming a service industry. I already see games as this already. A lot in the industry have adopted this mentality. It just may be a matter of time before we see the change, but it is coming.

Well, when it comes, I hope the publisher-customer relationships will normalize as well. As I said, a good start would be having to agree to the EULA before you actually buy the game. But then some people might read it and go "Fuck that, not buying on these terms."

Still, it's the only way to ensure this "licensing" model functions, because, for example, if I buy a game then crack it so that I bypass the DRM and the EULA - in this case I never violated the EULA, because I never agreed to it in the first place. You can't breach a contract you didn't sign.

So yea, this entire "licensing" model, I'd be perfectly willing to accept it, if the license agreements were presented before they take my money. Not after. The way it goes with pretty much any other binding agreement between two parties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_v._Autodesk,_Inc.

That ruling makes it closer to you own it, you agree to those terms.

 

[Vegosiux]

Video Games are becoming a service industry. I already see games as this already. A lot in the industry have adopted this mentality. It just may be a matter of time before we see the change, but it is coming.

Well, when it comes, I hope the publisher-customer relationships will normalize as well. As I said, a good start would be having to agree to the EULA before you actually buy the game. But then some people might read it and go "Fuck that, not buying on these terms."

Still, it's the only way to ensure this "licensing" model functions, because, for example, if I buy a game then crack it so that I bypass the DRM and the EULA - in this case I never violated the EULA, because I never agreed to it in the first place. You can't breach a contract you didn't sign.

So yea, this entire "licensing" model, I'd be perfectly willing to accept it, if the license agreements were presented before they take my money. Not after. The way it goes with pretty much any other binding agreement between two parties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_v._Autodesk,_Inc.

That ruling makes it closer to you own it, you agree to those terms.

*Shrug* Different jurisdiction here. Our legal system isn't too big on precedents, it's more a case-by-case thing. And I honestly say, I hope we never get to that point.

Because the moment I'm bound by some agreement I may or may not have even known of, something is wrong.

 

[Tanakh]

Actually, that's about the only relevant thing as far as legal repercussions are concerned.

If you want to report someone for it, you better damn well make sure the legal details check out, otherwise you're just wasting everybody's time.

That's why i said i would derail a bit the thread in my first post. I am not interested in knowing if legally piracy is the same as theft in the UK, because we alredy know in that specific country it is not.

 

[Guardian of Nekops]

Video Games are becoming a service industry. I already see games as this already. A lot in the industry have adopted this mentality. It just may be a matter of time before we see the change, but it is coming.

Well, when it comes, I hope the publisher-customer relationships will normalize as well. As I said, a good start would be having to agree to the EULA before you actually buy the game. But then some people might read it and go "Fuck that, not buying on these terms."

Still, it's the only way to ensure this "licensing" model functions, because, for example, if I buy a game then crack it so that I bypass the DRM and the EULA - in this case I never violated the EULA, because I never agreed to it in the first place. You can't breach a contract you didn't sign.

So yea, this entire "licensing" model, I'd be perfectly willing to accept it, if the license agreements were presented before they take my money. Not after. The way it goes with pretty much any other binding agreement between two parties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_v._Autodesk,_Inc.

That ruling makes it closer to you own it, you agree to those terms.

*Shrug* Different jurisdiction here. Our legal system isn't too big on precedents, it's more a case-by-case thing. And I honestly say, I hope we never get to that point.

Because the moment I'm bound by some agreement I may or may not have even known of, something is wrong.

Unfortunately, the logical alternative is a system that lets them prove, in court, that you read and understood every single word of that 500 page agreement. Like, a system that requires you to copy that sucker out word for word, in triplicate, rather than clicking "I agree". If you try to take away the company's ability to cover themselves with a legal agreement you didn't really have to read (and there ARE legitimate liability issues for them in there, in addition to all the bull) then their solution is not going to be to stop covering themselves... it's going to be to make it legally binding. No matter how annoying they have to be to do so.

 

[bfgmetalhead]

Bethesda are already sitting on a mountain of cash. Chill the fuck out and don't be snitchin'.

Right. Because that makes it ok. Christ...

To the OP, I'd just take something of his, preferably something expensive. I mean, you WANT it and don't have the money for it, so OBVIOUSLY it's ok to just take it, right?

Frankly, I don't imagine anything you could say or do will convince your buddy that what he's doing is wrong. Some people are just immature and selfish. Perhaps someday he'll grow out of it.

You mean kinda like someone who can't tell the difference between making a copy of something and actually stealing it?

"I'm taking this because I can't afford to buy it." Yeah, that's totally what you say when you're making a copy of something.

wow, thanks for supporting me. I only wanted a bit of guidance and I have got hate mail comin out of my ears over here XD

 

[Susan Arendt]

Bethesda are already sitting on a mountain of cash. Chill the fuck out and don't be snitchin'.

Right. Because that makes it ok. Christ...

To the OP, I'd just take something of his, preferably something expensive. I mean, you WANT it and don't have the money for it, so OBVIOUSLY it's ok to just take it, right?

Frankly, I don't imagine anything you could say or do will convince your buddy that what he's doing is wrong. Some people are just immature and selfish. Perhaps someday he'll grow out of it.

You mean kinda like someone who can't tell the difference between making a copy of something and actually stealing it?

"I'm taking this because I can't afford to buy it." Yeah, that's totally what you say when you're making a copy of something.

What? Do you even know what you are saying here yourself? Motivation is irrelevant Ms. Emotionally Charged.

Here, let me help you find a more apt comparison, because you can really use all the help you can get.

This is more like if to teach your friend said lesson you would build yourself a copy of a Table they own or made themselves. Now if I were said friend and you presented that to me I would proceed to laugh at you because I wouldn't give a shit that you built yourself a copy of my Table. The person who originally designed the Table, if it wasn't me, might give a shit, but that isn't my problem.

First of all, I suggest you ease off on your attitude, especially your snarky name calling. Secondly, motivation is irrelevant to what, exactly? I'm not discussing legal implications.

1. Nice suggestion, not that I'm even going to consider doing so. I suggest that you not try and manipulate the discussion because of you working here. Moving on.

2. It's irrelevant as to what it is. You were implying that the Motivation behind what he did somehow has a correlation to what he did. Him simply not wanting to pay doesn't magically make it theft. You'd think a Journalist working for a Games Site wouldn't need me to explain this to them.

3. No, of course not, that's why you responded to me bringing it up the way you did, huh?

Oh and for the Record, I'll be sure to report that one Mod that once called me Peaches, because it totally isn't childish to pretend I was totally offended by someone calling me Peaches. Seriously, who do you think you are kidding here?

1. I'm not manipulating the conversation, I'm giving you fair warning.

2. I never addressed theft in the legal sense at all. My point isn't about whether or not this would get successfully prosecuted, merely about whether or not the guy in question is being a jerk. Which he is. Not being able to afford something is not an excuse for taking it. (Unless the thing in question is a necessity of life, which Skyrim is not.)
3. If you feel like a mod was calling you names then, yes, I'd expect you to report it. Moderators are not above reproach.

 

[Carrots_macduff]

don't listen to these people! all you need to do is go to your local police station, and say "my friend downloaded a computer game for free and i think he might do it again!" and he will be apprehended immediately and burned at the stake.

 

[bfgmetalhead]

snip

You are obligated to keep your criticisms of our staff constructive and respectful. We similarly extend this same courtesy to you. Please watch your tone, it's quite antagonistic.

- Nas

 

[Rastrelly]

Until you've spent at least 24 hours of gameplay with the game - it's not piracy. If the game lasts for 8 hours, my opinion: if you did not want to make 3 runs through it, the game is shit and deserves no money. The time is the only criteria. You'll never spend more then 20 hours on a game you don't like. If you didn't like the game, you have not to pay for it. Period. On other hand, if one day you'll want to come back to this game, this means you've actually lied to yourself and you must pay for the developers. As for me, simple and adequate ethical resolution.

PS And do not point at demos. Demos are not giving actual experience in 90% of cases.

 

[Carrots_macduff]

i refuse to believe the op is serious

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

Your pretty much right the fact is, like I said he will keep doing it now and in the long run will either get caught and face worse repercuisions or just prove piracy is a way to get free games for no risk and laugh in my face about it. I just need to scare him into stopping is all. I am not doing this out of spite.

Don't do this. People need to be allowed to make their own mistakes in their own time and to either learn from those mistakes or not. Just continue to talk to him and point out your dislike for what hes doing and your reasons for doing so. Stealing from a developer who's product you enjoy only means that the product will be less enjoyable in the future.

Scaring people has never worked and it never will. If it did, we wouldn't have some 20+ million people in jail in the US. We wouldn't have tons of teen pregnancies. And good God would we not have any pirates at all, because if they take you to court over that shit they are going to charge you like 200,000 for every song stolen and probably a similar amount(if not more) for stealing games/tv/movies. But the simple fact is people ignore that, even after being sent a cease and desist letter by lawyers. He is going to have to come to the 'right' conclusion on his own, not because you 'scared' him.

 

[Suicidejim]

Personally, I just think that pirating and playing a game without bothering to reward the people who worked on it is reprehensible. If you aren't sure whether or not you'll like it first, that's what rentals are for.

That said, turning him in probably isn't the best idea. For a more serious crime, maybe, but not over piracy.

Also, wow. This thread is utter carnage.

 

[Lunar Templar]

1) doubt there's really anything you can do

2) >.> i can't help feeling like the bigger issue is you for wanting to crucify your friend for piracy. real friends 'don't make examples' of people they like.

 

[Susan Arendt]

To the OP, I'd just take something of his, preferably something expensive. I mean, you WANT it and don't have the money for it, so OBVIOUSLY it's ok to just take it, right?

So your advice is to commit a crime to teach someone it's wrong to commit a (lesser) crime?

The Escapist staff treats piracy like it's morally equivalent to beating up old ladies. It's bad, you shouldn't do it, but it is -not- the same thing as jacking your friend's car or making off with his TV.

Oh, lord, I didn't mean his car or TV. Just something to illustrate the point, not actually be a felony. (Wait...is stealing a TV a felony? Car would be, but I'm actually not sure about the TV.)

That still wouldn't be a fair comparison.

I agree with Panda completely here.

The attitude on this site, to what is at worst a petty crime, is just shocking. You all act as if it's comparable to (as panda said) "beating up old ladies".

It's just a crime of convenience and it doesn't have any immediately visible victim. Is it really surprising so many people do it? The only reason I don't pirate games is because Steam provides a much more convenient service in my opinion, and because I want to show my support to the people that made it. My choice to pony up the odd pound for a few games doesn't give me some sort of moral highground, from which I can judge all those I see fit.

It certainly doesn't give me the right to actually physically take something that belongs to them away, in some misguided attempt to show them a non sequitur or for some reason.

Piracy is piracy. It isn't theft which has it's own legal and technical definition. They are comparable crimes only in that they are crimes. They aren't comparable in method, intent or result. So physically taking something that belonged to someone else is not a good method of showing them what they've done wrong.

I really don't get why people support this witch hunt so ferociously.

Sure piracy isn't exactly noble, and we'd probably be better off without it. But there are real criminals out there, real people who deserve this vitriol and venom. Violent criminals that actually do things worthy of this hate. But people validate a system that puts corporate need infront of that of people. And whilst these money juggernauts buy out the legal system to sanction what can only be described as an inquisition to hunt down a few spotty nerds who host some servers or link some adverts. Those violent criminals get reduced sentences because of 'overcrowding'.

I know piracy isn't the route cause of this, there are tons of factors, pretty much all non-violent criminals that serve hard time take up space and time that could have been used for someone more deserving. The whole judicial system is just broken as fuck, but corporate lobbied witch hunts certainly don't help.

I'm sorry but this whole issue to just naffs me right off.

I actually agree with you on many points. There are certainly plenty of far worse things a person can do, even stuff that wouldn't legally be considered criminal. (I don't think comparing this to violent crime is remotely fair or appropriate. No-one is suggesting this is on par with assault or murder.) And yes, I absolutely understand why people do it. It's easy, you won't get caught or punished, so there's little incentive to not do it. I also don't blame anyone for wanting to try a game before they buy it, or for downloading a game that is no longer available for purchase, or for pirating when that's your country's given model of distribution. (Try getting something not pirated in China, for example.) I get that. But pirating a game because you can't afford it (which is the example in the OP), or because you don't like the publisher is a shitty thing to do.