Never speak ill of/joke about the dead?

[Simonism451]

Its still pretty much the same apart from South Africa, though i would put that down to it being colonial at one point.

This sounds so stupid that I'm fairly sure I misunderstood you, but in case I didn't, you do realize that the entirety of Africa was colonial at some point and not just South Aftica?

I guess i meant that the parts of Africa that are doing well are normally old colonial parts. Where as there are huge areas of africa where nothing has changed at all. So him being considered some kind of saviour seems silly as the only change their has been are in post colonial areas, not non colonial ones. I just dont think he has done all that much for Africa as a whole. Granted he has started something that will be built on and in the future things will be better for all Africans. But i dont think he deserves all the credit he is being given. But thats just me.

Again, the majority of Africa is post colonial, including, well about its entirety apart from Liberia and what is now Ethiopia.

 

[Product Placement]

Also he hasnt done all that much for Africa, parts of it are still corrupt, still areas living in mud huts and killing other tribes just because your from a different tribe. Its still pretty much the same apart from South Africa, though i would put that down to it being colonial at one point.

He was a South African revolutionary and politician who devoted his life to ending apartheid. And you're criticizing him for not fixing Uganda or the Congo?

He lived well on his fame even though he was originally a terrorist. He did fuck all for Africa, except only in South Africa. Dont know why he is held up as some kind of savior when the rest of Africa is racist and corrupted. Same way the IRA are now in politics to solve their problems, but still shouldnt forget all the the people that have been killed.

So yes, he helped with apartheid, as did hundreds of other people. Still doesnt make him akin to a saint in my eyes.

How is criticizing him for not fixing other countries in any way valid? They're his responsibility because he's from the same continent? He did some good, but not all the good, so screw him?

I kinda have to agree on this point. This is like criticizing Lincoln for ending Slavery in the United States but doing nothing to end it in Brazil.

And calling him a terrorist is frigging cheap. He organized protests against a government that promoted racial segregation. A government that jailed him for nearly 30 years as a result. His biggest obstacle of his time was being a socialist, during the height of the "Red Scare", when Western nations fought tooth and nail against any signs of Communistic expansion. Once the Soviet Union was collapsed, western leaders were suddenly much more forthcoming in supporting his case.

 

[lacktheknack]

For example, Ted Rall's cartoon is an epic bone-head move because it denies any of the good that Mandela ever achieved, and portrays him as a vain, attention-seeking, ineffectual sycophant. His cartoon would be a pointless jab at Mandela at the best of times, but to publish it in response to his passing is just kicking people who mourn him when they're down, and smacks of rage-bait and snark more than having anything useful to say.

This.

The cartoon was written almost certainly to prey on mourners (unless he's the least aware person in existence, in which case he shouldn't be a political cartoonist). He deserves a sudden punch in the crotch for doing that.

 

[lacktheknack]

He did fuck all for Africa, except only in South Africa. Dont know why he is held up as some kind of savior when the rest of Africa is racist and corrupted.

I'm not sure if you're aware that South Africa is a country.

He literally can't have political sway in the rest of Africa beyond "figurehead". If he tried to have sway in, say, Sudan, he'd be told to go screw himself and wreck diplomatic ties between countries.

I literally have no idea what you want him to do. Are you expecting the President of France to go fix problems in Russia? Because that's what you expected of Mandela.

The whole point is that he did amazing things in the country of South Africa. Are you horribly disappointed that he didn't go and become president of literally every other country and change them as well? You ask for way too much. The fact that the rest of Africa remains corrupt and nasty is a testament to how much he really did in his terms as leader.

 

[GundamSentinel]

A joke is fine, even about a dead person, but this is just unfair sour nastyness. This is not humour, this is being an asshole.

It's the difference between a good joke and a troll. Don't feed the trolls, people.

 

[Whispering Cynic]

When you say something controversial or joke about a dead person, there's always someone somewhere who'll get offended (the more truth in your statement is, the bigger the outrage, usually). Too many people still don't understand that someone's words, someone's joke doesn't necessarily have to affect them, that these thing can be safely ignored without any negative repercussions. That said, I understand that there is an aspect of "too soon", that some things are better left unsaid for some time, out of respect for those in mourning.

As for the phrase "never speak ill or joke about the dead", if you want the user to stop saying this simply remind them of Adolf Hitler. That, in my experience, tends to shut them up very quickly.

 

[manic_depressive13]

I find it pretty ridiculous to expect people to ignore someone's failings just because they died. Mandela did a lot of good. He also failed to follow through on what a lot of people expected of him. No one is perfect. No one should be obligated to pretend anyone is perfect, regardless of how alive or dead they are. If you disagree with a criticism, go ahead and dispute it. But don't try to stifle criticism on some arbitrary basis. Frankly, when someone dies, people tend to go overboard singing their praises, and I think it's important to inject some dissenting opinions into the discussion.

As for his family and loved ones; When you're mourning someone you love, the last thing you give a shit about is what some random people have to say about them.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Comedy = Tragedy + Time.

Take away the time part and you just have tragedy. And tragedy isn't funny. Unless you're the Joker.

 

[weirdsoup]

Generally I consider pretty much anyone to be fair game when it comes to humour as, if anything else, I like to think I am an equal opportunities piss-taker. So long as it's funny, it's all good.

That said, there is also the small matter of the "Too Soon..." rule, which is where the grey area comes into play.

If the person who died / was killed was a complete arsehole (i.e Osama Bin Laden) then no time is too soon - let the jokes commence while he/she is still warm, I say.

In the case of someone like Mandela, who may have not been a total saint but was a bloody good man all the same and a real inspiration to millions, I'd give it a few weeks / months before I'd consider jokes to be acceptable.

I actually had a discussion with a colleague about this a while back; why do we as a nation seem to delight so much in jokes about dead / disgraced people so much, even if they were good / great people? The conclusion was that "gallows humour" is a way of coping with the loss / disappointment. Many of these jokes really do push the boundaries of good taste sometimes but I wont lie - many of them are bloody funny all the same!

In the case of the OT and the cartoon shown, I'd call a definite "Too Soon..." on this one. It's also not even funny and wouldn't be in six months or even six years time. It's not even a joke or satire; it's a pretty lame hack-job on the character of someone who left this world a freer place than it was when he was born.

Not many people can say that.

Yes, he was considered a terrorist. But you have to look beyond that and into who's doing the considering and why. Things are rarely that black and white (pun intended)

 

[Something Amyss]

I find it pretty ridiculous to expect people to ignore someone's failings just because they died. Mandela did a lot of good. He also failed to follow through on what a lot of people expected of him. No one is perfect. No one should be obligated to pretend anyone is perfect, regardless of how alive or dead they are.

Seems like sort of a strawman, since this comic wasn't really saying "he did a lot, but he was flawed."

He was evidently, too busy being a celebrity to get anything done.

 

[Someone Depressing]

I believe that all humour, no matter how black or blue, can be enjoyed, as long as it is ment in jest. So, a building gets blown up, and in hell, all of the victims are all annoyed and impatient in a line to get into a boat that goes over Styx/Stanza/Stairway to Heaven. Funny, because it's not only relateable, but so offensive that people automatically attribute it to extreme comedy.

This is not ment in jest.

This is awful. The man is dead. Hundreds miss him. Grieve for him. It's pretty obvious the author genuinely disliked him and has no respect for him.

 

[manic_depressive13]

I find it pretty ridiculous to expect people to ignore someone's failings just because they died. Mandela did a lot of good. He also failed to follow through on what a lot of people expected of him. No one is perfect. No one should be obligated to pretend anyone is perfect, regardless of how alive or dead they are.

Seems like sort of a strawman, since this comic wasn't really saying "he did a lot, but he was flawed."

He was evidently, too busy being a celebrity to get anything done.

Plenty of people are celebrating his victories. This comic creator is criticising what he sees as his failings. Taken together, in context, it paints a picture of a man who achieved a lot, but fell short in some ways. I mean, do you think this person would have created the comic if everyone was criticising Mandela, and no one was acknowledging the good he did? Or do you think the comic was published in response to what the artist perceived as inordinate praise?

 

[Frission]

It depends on the joke. For example, I wouldn't even call this a joke. It's not funny, it's a just mud flinging and it's a bastard thing to do when the man is dead.

All in all this comic wouldn't have been funny even if the man was alive or dead a hundred years ago.

Plenty of people are celebrating his victories. This comic creator is criticising what he sees as his failings. Taken together, in context, it paints a picture of a man who achieved a lot, but fell short in some ways. I mean, do you think this person would have created the comic if everyone was criticising Mandela, and no one was acknowledging the good he did? Or do you think the comic was published in response to what the artist perceived as inordinate praise?

I don't know... I'm a fan of black humor, but this just felt vicious. I don't think that the intent was to say that he was a good but flawed man.
If the cartoonist wanted to do that, then I think even I could have come up with a better joke.

The context is important for a joke and I really need it this time around, because at this instant I would be at the level of saying that the guy would find a home at Stormfront.

Humor is subjective and political cartoonists sometimes try to be insightful more than anything, but this comic. IS. NOT. FUNNY.

 

[Evonisia]

I prefer not to speak ill of the dead... unless they were complete assholes in life. Then they're fair game. Though it might depend on what one thinks of said dead person...

Pretty much this for me anyway.

OT:
There's also human decency, the dead can't defend themselves and several other perfectly valid arguments already brought up in this thread. If that's the kinda thing you're into.

 

[likalaruku]

I remember seeing an article on Buzzfeed about some Adam Sandler look-alike named Jason Biggs saying that a Cafe's use of tip jars for voting on the best movie of the late Paul Walker, was "in bad taste."

Personally, I thought it was clever. Anyway, I checked out Jason Bigg's Twitter & saw that he'd made a tweet about farting in bed & shitting his pants. Who's in bad taste now>?

 

[ThreeName]

Make jokes about whatever you fucking want.

Jesus.

No one is forcing you to like it or find it funny. It's hardly even a joke, it's strait-up criticism, and though I don't agree with it, I don't agree with a lot of things, and think this person should be able to say or think whatever they want.

Get over yourselves.

Humor is subjective and political cartoonists sometimes try to be insightful more than anything, but this comic. IS. NOT. FUNNY.

The amount of times I've seen "Humour is subjective but this X that offends me is totally objectively unfunny and horrible" is fucking ludicrous. Do you people even know what subjective means?

 

[Frission]

Make jokes about whatever you fucking want.

Jesus.

No one is forcing you to like it or find it funny. It's hardly even a joke, it's strait-up criticism, and though I don't agree with it, I don't agree with a lot of things, and think this person should be able to say or think whatever they want.

Get over yourselves.

Humor is subjective and political cartoonists sometimes try to be insightful more than anything, but this comic. IS. NOT. FUNNY.

The amount of times I've seen "Humour is subjective but this X that offends me is totally objectively unfunny and horrible" is fucking ludicrous. Do you people even know what subjective means?

Okay, then I don't find it funny. Happy you pedant?

EDIT: Oh people can say whatever they want. However it also means that they will can also be called a dick afterwards.

 

[ThreeName]

Okay, then I don't find it funny. Happy you pedant?

EDIT: Oh people can say whatever they want. However it also means that they will can also be called a dick afterwards.

Very much so, thank you.

Yeah, that's what free speech is all about. But from the thread, I'd say there's a big differences between calling a guy a dick for speaking ill of the dead, and saying "He shouldn't be allowed to speak ill of the dead". One is perfectly fine, one is dangerous.

 

[Fireaxe]

IMO, if you didn't have the same criticisms of the person while they were alive then yes you shouldn't say negative things about them. But if you said the same thing when the person was alive, I see no issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtxqohNtLIg