Never thought I'd feel sorry for these guys.

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Lydius_Winters

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Sep 25, 2008
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Well as for the fact that PTSD is acually Called Shell Shock, and in the name of George Carlin "If we had still called it Shell Shock i bet you those Vietnam vets would have gotten the help they needed at the time."
And i am not shure about this but i am assuming that the state acually tries to help them, you know as the state is responsible for their current condition and should be held accountable. (Read the last sentence with heavy sarcasm)
 

Sunstrike

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Mar 29, 2010
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I wouldn't say its there own fault for volunteering at all, there are many reasons one joins the army, not all of them being "I want to kill people". From my understanding theres a goodly number of soldiers trying to put themselves through school, pressured into service by parents, or just trying to do something other than flipping burgers for the rest of there lives. For people like that these statistics are quite troubling/sad.

However another consideration might just be that these sort of things are getting diagnosed more these days. IIRC in WW1 shellshock/post traumatic stress was offically recorded as lacking in moral fortitude or some other phrase essentially translating to cowardice. Which created a very large stigma around talking about these sorts of things to ANYONE. In todays enlightened times, people may be able to open up more to there doctors, doctors may be able to talk with the soldiers on a more individual level and diagnose people for these things better.

Bottom line: I don't think the Iraq war is any different from any other war. People die, and the survivors have to find ways to go on living. The only difference is that we now recognize some of the problems these people face in reintegrating into society upfront with a medical diagnosis.

Edit: While war itself is a deplorable thing and should never happen, let me share you a little tidbit from first year macroeconomics.

GDP (a measure of how much a country can produce, and generally a decent measure of standard of living) is equal to C(consumption by citizens)+ I (investement and expansion by firms) + G(governement spending) + NX (net exports)

Government spending (which is created from entering a war) increases GDP by an amount equal to the cash the government drops on the war.

However, the governement spending is passed on to firms and companies, who use it it invest and expand (increasing GDP further), this expansion means more workers are hired (which reduces unemployment) who then use there new income to consume more, inreasing GDP even further.

This means that a round of government spending causes an exponentially large shift in GDP and standard of living due the consequetive rounds of spending. However, this does increase the interest rate some, which cause investement to fall again (called crowding out). However 99% of the time, even with crowding out you still see a exponential increase in standard of living when the government spends more money (to say, buy more bombs).

Of course if you really wanted to get into the nitty gritty, this doesn't actually effect the long run health of the economy and will always be followed by a recession of some sort ect ect ect.
 

Yumi_and_Erea

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Nov 11, 2009
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Sunstrike said:
I wouldn't say its there own fault for volunteering at all, there are many reasons one joins the army, not all of them being "I want to kill people". From my understanding theres a goodly number of soldiers trying to put themselves through school, pressured into service by parents, or just trying to do something other than flipping burgers for the rest of there lives. For people like that these statistics are quite troubling/sad.

However another consideration might just be that these sort of things are getting diagnosed more these days. IIRC in WW1 shellshock/post traumatic stress was offically recorded as lacking in moral fortitude or some other phrase essentially translating to cowardice. Which created a very large stigma around talking about these sorts of things to ANYONE. In todays enlightened times, people may be able to open up more to there doctors, doctors may be able to talk with the soldiers on a more individual level and diagnose people for these things better.

Bottom line: I don't think the Iraq war is any different from any other war. People die, and the survivors have to find ways to go on living. The only difference is that we now recognize some of the problems these people face in reintegrating into society upfront with a medical diagnosis.

Edit: While war itself is a deplorable thing and should never happen, let me share you a little tidbit from first year macroeconomics.

GDP (a measure of how much a country can produce, and generally a decent measure of standard of living) is equal to C(consumption by citizens)+ I (investement and expansion by firms) + G(governement spending) + NX (net exports)

Government spending (which is created from entering a war) increases GDP by an amount equal to the cash the government drops on the war.

However, the governement spending is passed on to firms and companies, who use it it invest and expand (increasing GDP further), this expansion means more workers are hired (which reduces unemployment) who then use there new income to consume more, inreasing GDP even further.

This means that a round of government spending causes an exponentially large shift in GDP and standard of living due the consequetive rounds of spending. However, this does increase the interest rate some, which cause investement to fall again (called crowding out). However 99% of the time, even with crowding out you still see a exponential increase in standard of living when the government spends more money (to say, buy more bombs).

Of course if you really wanted to get into the nitty gritty, this doesn't actually effect the long run health of the economy and will always be followed by a recession of some sort ect ect ect.
Neat info, but it did give me pretty bad flashbacks to high-school economics.

Keynesian economics vs classical economics...*shudders*

No thanks.
 

Sunstrike

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Mar 29, 2010
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Yea, first year economics is pretty dry, and sometimes removed from reality, however the short run impacts of war stimulating the economy is more or less a proven thing with real world examples.
 

Kagim

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War is an inevitable factor of life. Like some people have said war pushes technology, helps control the global population, and helps out the economy. As much as people hate to admit it despite being horrible things WW1 and WW2 pulled countries out of depressions, massively boosted technology and medicine years ahead of there times, and was basically the stepping stones women needed to claim there rights which they deserved.

War is a necessity as much as we may hate it. Until the day comes that humans can either properly manage out population to not outgrow out environment or learn how to turn nothingness into food. Get used to war.

As well note the cold war doesn't count because it was about as much of a war as a staring eye contest is a fight. While its true if it wasn't for Chernobyl something may have broken out we won't know for now.

OT: Depending on who's side your own war can be even more stressful. A friend of mines dad was deployed as a peace keeper(yes, I'm Canadian). Essentially the rule was the peacekeepers have to wait till they are under fire until they can load there gun. So imagine walking through a street with a weapon that must be holstered or over your shoulder that isn't even loaded, possible enemies waiting to jump you, and you are likely going to have to wait till your friend has six bullets in them before you can even arm your weapon to fight back.

I realize peacekeepers aren't there to fight, but i honestly don't think the person shooting at you from a window cares.
 

DefunctTheory

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Mar 30, 2010
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Donnyp said:
I have friends in Iraq and they are fine. They act the same as when they left.
How people act and how they think are two completely different things. Not saying your friends are messed up, but if they were, they would be capable of not letting you know. It took over a year for someone to figure out how crazy I was getting.
 
May 28, 2009
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I wouldn't hate on soldiers who volunteered. If a really major war (not like Vietnam, I mean WWII, where something was actually at stake) broke out I'd volunteer despite my fear of getting in any way damaged, and consider those who had to be conscripted to be the ones to find fault with.

Although I do find my share of insane super-patriot war-nuts who just want to shoot things for their country, I despise the people who boo our soldiers when they return. They aren't risking their lives, they're just sitting there booing.

Politicians on the other hand, all should be given a crash course in Iraq before deciding to waste lives. I'm looking at Bush, Cheny, Rumsfeld and Blair especially.
 

SnootyEnglishman

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May 26, 2009
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As far as the soldiers are concerned i can support them and their actions because in the end all they are doing is the job they signed up for and nothing less. The government that deploys them into a war for absolutely no reason at all and even when they gave that reason (it was WMD's then swtiched over to toppling saddam hussein) and completed those mission's (saddam is dead after all and they've had their elections) we're still there.
 

Axle_Bullitt_19

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May 29, 2009
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Well you see what happens when you have to shot 7 year olds that are running at you with bombs straped to there chest.
 

Ancientgamer

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Riobux said:
More traumatising than WW1 and WW2?

Come on...

Edit: On second thought, I'm curious about the collection of their statistics. WW1 and WW2 didn't hand out psychiatric papers freely to their soldiers, a lot of things were not recognised as psychiatric problems until much later on and becoming an alcoholic was not monitored during the late 40s and the 50s.
Well, in the world wars it was just called shell shock and pretty much left at that. But on an objective level humans can actually endure a fucking lot, it's the mindset that matters. While a lot worse stuff happened during the world wars, they were considered "Just" wars, there was a clear enemy, and the public was almost entirely supportive (Well, apparently anyway, thanks in no small part to different views on propaganda.)
 

Blazenwizard

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Mar 17, 2010
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Well it only confirms that war is hell for ALL involved except those who actually declare it. More importantly no matter what one's opinions are on any armed conflict involving one's own nation, you must support your troops. They're doing a job that others cannot and won't do. And seeing as how your a psychiatrist (no offense and congrats on all success) but i doubt if shit hit the infinity ward fan and we were invaded, you would grab an Uzi and take no prisoners. I'm not trolling let me just emphasize, but i have buddies in the service who served and are serving in Iraq and I think its important that even if the reasons for war aren't popular, that we should always support the safety and well being of our soldiers; mental and physical.
James_Sunderland said:
Today I read a report in a newspaper about an investigation by the American Military Veteran's Psychiatric Evaluation Council.

According to the researchers, 1 in every 4 Iraq-veterans returns to civilian life with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, suicidal depression or both.
It also went on to say that 1 in 3 veterans has recurring nightmares about their time in Iraq and 1 in 7 becomes alcoholic upon return.

"This officially makes the Iraq-war the second-most traumatizing war in US history, surpassed only by Vietnam." say the councilors.

I normally don't care for soldiers (and even less for those in Iraq because unlike Vietnam-veterans, these guys are volunteers and not conscripts) but in reading this I can't help but feel for these guys. They left their old lives to fight in the war but upon return they can't pick those old lives up again. The war literally destroyed their lives as they knew it.

I'm a psychiatrist myself so I know how serious PTSD can be and the notion that the US is filled with thousands of trigger-happy soldiers afflicted by it is a very disturbing one indeed.

Anyway, how do you feel about soldiers getting traumatized like this?
Is it their own fault for volunteering? The government's fault for starting the war in the first place?
Or is it just an inherent horror of war, and this is just a particularly visceral example?
 

BaldursBananaSoap

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May 20, 2009
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What? Maybe they need some better training, because men in WW2 marched onto the frontlines and saw their comrades slaughtered by machine guns, blown to pieces by mortar and airstrikes and burnt by flamethrowers by the HUNDREDS. How can being in the Iraq war be worse than that? Although it may not have been recorded as well as today. I plan on joining the Armoured Corps, trying for the behind enemy lines Royal Observer corps or becoming a pilot. This kind of puts me off but I'm assuming most cases are from standard infantry units who get treated like cannon fodder.
 

DefunctTheory

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Mar 30, 2010
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BaldursBananaSoap said:
What? Maybe they need some better training, because men in WW2 marched onto the frontlines and saw their comrades slaughtered by machine guns, blown to pieces by mortar and airstrikes and burnt by flamethrowers by thei HUNDREDS. How can being in the Iraq war be worse than that?
American troops in WWII rarely had to shoot 7 year olds. Truthfully, the things that mess you up are not so much what is done to you, but what you have to do yourself.
 

Steelfists

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James_Sunderland said:
Today I read a report in a newspaper about an investigation by the American Military Veteran's Psychiatric Evaluation Council.

According to the researchers, 1 in every 4 Iraq-veterans returns to civilian life with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, suicidal depression or both.
It also went on to say that 1 in 3 veterans has recurring nightmares about their time in Iraq and 1 in 7 becomes alcoholic upon return.

"This officially makes the Iraq-war the second-most traumatizing war in US history, surpassed only by Vietnam." say the councilors.

I normally don't care for soldiers (and even less for those in Iraq because unlike Vietnam-veterans, these guys are volunteers and not conscripts) but in reading this I can't help but feel for these guys. They left their old lives to fight in the war but upon return they can't pick those old lives up again. The war literally destroyed their lives as they knew it.

I'm a psychiatrist myself so I know how serious PTSD can be and the notion that the US is filled with thousands of trigger-happy soldiers afflicted by it is a very disturbing one indeed.

Anyway, how do you feel about soldiers getting traumatized like this?
Is it their own fault for volunteering? The government's fault for starting the war in the first place?
Or is it just an inherent horror of war, and this is just a particularly visceral example?
Why do they have to be trigger happy? You don't think they were doing good over there?

Get informed man: http://www.michaelyon-online.com/stake-through-their-hearts.htm

Read through that site. He was there for much of 2005-2009. Don't just assume that because it is a war with many casualties and a bad rep it can't be won and has traumatized a generation of soldiers.
 

technoted

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James_Sunderland said:
"This officially makes the Iraq-war the second-most traumatizing war in US history, surpassed only by Vietnam." say the councilors.
Only because in WW2 you were called a coward and shot as apposed to actually having genuine breakdowns...
 

ArcWinter

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May 9, 2009
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Well, on one hand, it is the soldiers fault. But hey, it's boring over here in the States. So, y'know, can't blame 'em.

On the other hand, it's the government's fault. War is bad. Don't start one.

On another hand, I blame everyone for making violence acceptable.

On the fourth hand, OH GOD ITS STRANGLING ME