New Deus Ex Not "Dumbed Down" for Consoles

[DayDark]

unless the inventory consisted of only health packs, I can't see the causation. And how a leveling system can be a function of regen/non-regen health I just have to WTF at, how in the world are those linked?

They are linked because developpers and publishers think they are linked, even if in truth they are not. They think that the console FPS players they're targetting won't accept health bar nor anything more "complicated" like an old school inventory and levelling system (see SS2). This is proven by the trend all "modern" shooters are following.

This is an assumption, and is not proven by the trend of shooters, shooters in general has never had an inventory, going all the way back to Doom and Wolfenstein, we only had the numbers which referred to different weapons, but that is not the inventory you think of, your thinking of a boxed inventory ala an Rpg, SS2 is the exception to the norm. It has less to do with health regen, and more to do with the genre. Mass Effect is a cover based "shooter", with the inventory your referring to.

The key thing though, is that there's no logical connection between these features, so even if the developers did this because they thought it was connected, that would simply be a stupid decision based on false data.

the relationship between shooters and halo/GoW is irrelevant, because the only reason this was brought up by him is because DE3 is gonna have cover, but cover is means to an end, this doesn't mean they will be the same experience, I've played my share of cover shooters and to say they feel like GoW would not be less than true, it would be completely wrong. That is why it's a straw man, from the simple fact that DE3 is gonna have a cover system, he jumps of the rails to rant about a popular cover based shooter, disregarding the other obvious non-similarities. It's like ranting about how football sucks so, golf shouldn't utilize balls.

"halo/gow" is an amalgam to convey the meaning
"regeneration + cover based + implied lack of story depth = modern shooter clone != deus ex".
It may be paranoia and fan wailing, there's still a grain of truth in this.

Well technically lack of story depth depends on the game, but that is generally not the problem with this argument. The problem is that neither health regen, nor a cover based system is the detrimental factor in this equation, the lack of story depth is the crux of the problem, IMO.

This is only my own experience, but almost all shooters with cover and/or regeneration felt the same to me ; the settings are different, but the overall gameplay experience is shallow. Though maybe I just played too many shooters and have become jaded. What is feared is that DE3 will be too much like a basic shooter even with the advertised "multiple choices", and not enough like a FPS/RPG.
It's more like saying how football suck, so lets not make golf even remotely like it.

My point was that a cover system is not gonna make DE3 into GoW, just as golf having balls, is not gonna turn it into Football, so complaining about a highly exaggerated experience in football, and then using that knowledge to make a design decision in golf is irrational.

When you're under fire and thinking "I think there is some health over there" you are using your memory, you still have to assess the situation, and may have some added excitement as others mentioned. In a good game there is no lenghty backtracking necessary during a firefight.

Then I wouldn't really call it back tracking, if it is around the corner, I can see your point. However, i feel that this area will be covered with other pick-up items. When I talked about assessing the situation, I was actually referring to stealth rather than being under fire, like if you have broken the line of sight, and has time to evaluate your situation (in cover), or if your approaching stealthly and hiding behind cover close to the patrolling enemies.

Compare with "i'll wait here 5 seconds before shooting again" *get hit*, repeat. Small variations in gameplay does not compensate this.

Then the problem is variation issues, AI, and High damage, can make this better. Even in GoW I feel they are pretty good at addressing this problem, you usually can't stay in the same spot, even behind cover, because the enemy will flank you.

The practical downside of the health bar is that you have to quick save often, because when you screw up, you screw up. I can see how regeneration is a progress on consoles, it is not so on the PC, but hopefully a mod can fix that.

I don't think I agree with your conclusion, I don't see how health regen is inherently a progress on consoles, it is simply a mechanic. You're gonna have to explain that one to me. A console is just a PC after all. Halo 3: ODST used health packs after all, which on legendary difficulty became pretty vital.

 

[incal11]

shooters in general has never had an inventory, going all the way back to Doom and Wolfenstein, we only had the numbers which referred to different weapons, but that is not the inventory you think of, your thinking of a boxed inventory ala an Rpg, SS2 is the exception to the norm. It has less to do with health regen, and more to do with the genre. Mass Effect is a cover based "shooter", with the inventory your referring to.

The key thing though, is that there's no logical connection between these features, so even if the developers did this because they thought it was connected, that would simply be a stupid decision based on false data.

Well technically lack of story depth depends on the game, but that is generally not the problem with this argument. The problem is that neither health regen, nor a cover based system is the detrimental factor in this equation, the lack of story depth is the crux of the problem, IMO.

I'm backed mainly by the fact that FPS/RPGs like SS2 and ME are the exceptions rather than the norm. The connection between unrelated features is made because publishers think in term of "formulas", they think that if they add or change too much, even if it's for the better, their audience will not be as large.

It is a problem because most shooters with cover and regeneration don't exactly have rich storytelling, or variety of gameplay. It has been a constant over the years, sure shooters generally don't have much of a story ; but we don't want DE3 to be a just some shooter.

My point was that a cover system is not gonna make DE3 into GoW, just as golf having balls, is not gonna turn it into Football, so complaining about a highly exaggerated experience in football, and then using that knowledge to make a design decision in golf is irrational.

The devs thinking is obviously this : most players like "football", deus ex is "golf", let's make it just a bit like "football" by adding football rules to it and appeal to more players. The rules not being directly linked to the balls themselves either.

Compare with "i'll wait here 5 seconds before shooting again" *get hit*, repeat. Small variations in gameplay does not compensate this.

Then the problem is variation issues, AI, and High damage, can make this better. Even in GoW I feel they are pretty good at addressing this problem, you usually can't stay in the same spot, even behind cover, because the enemy will flank you.

If DE3 can be as good in that domain as Gow that could be great, though only if it's but a small part of the gameplay.

I don't think I agree with your conclusion, I don't see how health regen is inherently a progress on consoles, it is simply a mechanic. You're gonna have to explain that one to me. A console is just a PC after all. Halo 3: ODST used health packs after all, which on legendary difficulty became pretty vital.

Having to quicksave, if it's even an option, can be a hassle especially when you forget to do it and have to replay the last hour,It's more practical to quicksave/quickload on a keyboard than with a gamepad. Then dying again and again to start at the last checkpoint is frustrating. regeneration makes it all easier.
Originally it's because quicksaving was not an option on older console FPS because of the hardware limitations at the time. Somehow, developers and publishers convinced themselves that quicksaving is not a "console thing", so they tried to find an alternative.
In term of gameplay however I agree it's hardly a progress.

 

[DayDark]

I'm backed mainly by the fact that FPS/RPGs like SS2 and ME are the exceptions rather than the norm. The connection between unrelated features is made because publishers think in term of "formulas", they think that if they add or change too much, even if it's for the better, their audience will not be as large.

So the question is, is DE3 gonna be a straight up shooter or an Shooter/rpg? I would say that SS2 and ME are the exceptions because they are hybrid genres, so if DE3 is gonna be a hybrid genre, I don't feel that the trend of straight shooters can be applied.

It is a problem because most shooters with cover and regeneration don't exactly have rich storytelling, or variety of gameplay. It has been a constant over the years, sure shooters generally don't have much of a story ; but we don't want DE3 to be a just some shooter.

I would say shooters in general (regen/cover or not) aren't to rich on story, which is a pity. Nonetheless, I don't think DE3 is just gonna be a straight up shooter.

The devs thinking is obviously this : most players like "football", deus ex is "golf", let's make it just a bit like "football" by adding football rules to it and appeal to more players. The rules not being directly linked to the balls themselves either.

But hasn't the DE series already appealed to this crowd through it's hybrid nature? I actually intended the ball shape (round) to be an analog for cover/regen. So someone having a bad experience with a round football, will go on to say that golf is bad because it has round golf balls.

If DE3 can be as good in that domain as Gow that could be great, though only if it's but a small part of the gameplay.

If it's true with the multiple paths stuff, maybe it's completely optional.

Having to quicksave, if it's even an option, can be a hassle especially when you forget to do it and have to replay the last hour,It's more practical to quicksave/quickload on a keyboard than with a gamepad. Then dying again and again to start at the last checkpoint is frustrating. regeneration makes it all easier.
Originally it's because quicksaving was not an option on older console FPS because of the hardware limitations at the time. Somehow, developers and publishers convinced themselves that quicksaving is not a "console thing", so they tried to find an alternative.
In term of gameplay however I agree it's hardly a progress.

Well THAT I can understand, Usually though checkpoints are pretty numerous, so in this day and age, it's not as frustrating as it were, but I can understand if PC users would want control over saving.

 

[BlackWidower]

Played the first Deus Ex on GameTap a while back. Had to stop in the Chinese level because it kept crashing. Never got back to it, mainly because GameTap decided to remove Deus Ex from it's free list and I never saw a copy in stores. Maybe now I'll keep a closer eye out for it.

 

[incal11]

So the question is, is DE3 gonna be a straight up shooter or an Shooter/rpg? I would say that SS2 and ME are the exceptions because they are hybrid genres, so if DE3 is gonna be a hybrid genre, I don't feel that the trend of straight shooters can be applied.

hasn't the DE series already appealed to this crowd through it's hybrid nature? I actually intended the ball shape (round) to be an analog for cover/regen. So someone having a bad experience with a round football, will go on to say that golf is bad because it has round golf balls.

The parallel between regen/cover and "basic shooter" has become so strong that fear of seeing DE3 dumbed down for the console shooter crowd is justified. I was only discussing the reason behind this fallacy.
It's a matter of odds, with regeneration, seeing as games are now, the odds that DE3 may be a basic shooter increase.
I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Regenerating Health: Unlimited Resources (Halo 2 and 3, Gears of War, many other titles)
Health Packs: Limited Resources (Left 4 Dead 1 & 2)
Hybrid: Both (Resistance, Fall of Man. Halo 3.)

All of those are console titles or multi-platform and all of them can be considered "recent".
There are gameplay-mechanical considerations for using any one of them, though most developers stick to the regenerating health mechanic because it's the most popular and requires the least effort to balance (change up to 2 variables to tweak. No health packs.)

Console shooters are, overwhelmingly so, linear-map shooters, where backtracking for health is a big no-no.
Some time ago, backtracking became one of the game design deadly sins it seems; few games make GOOD use of backtracking.

In multiplayer, the benefit of regenerating health is to enforce the notion of defense. Prior to this, most shooters worked on the "too fast to hit" principle for defense.
Naturally, "Speed Killz" became the norm. You had to out dance the sniper, or rocket jump away from certain death.

Also, there is some truth to the "Regenerating Health is a console mechanic".
By forcing the player to slow down (for level design and scenario reasons, including loading times and checkpoints), the industry had to adapt a new model for the player's ability to recover health that didn't involve backtracking.

 

[Stormz]

RPG makers should take this as a perfect example of what you SHOULD do. To many devs are watering down content now and it makes me mad they think that everyone needs to have their hand held.