New "Missing link" for evolution!

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Matronadena

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fossilization is actually a rarity in the grand scheme of things as it takes certain factors to be perfectly in place. Bone itself DOES get broken down eventually as minerals, and proteins dissolve it.. what a fossil is is actually a " cast mold" of the original bone " though in a FEW cases some soft tissue manages to survive in core of a bone"

when one finds fossils there are a few important things to look for...one being an area that " given a certain era" was prone to flooding, near a body of water, like a lake, river, swamp or sea... is it prone to landslides?..etc

good preservation, of an animal, or plant, more so with full articulation requires a body to be covered almost immediately after death " within a few days" before the elements, and scavengers can get to it.

out of a species of several million, perhaps only a few thousand have the chance of being fossilized... of those few thousand, only a few hundred are likely to survive erosion or any number of destructive forces.


Now as far as Ida goes genetically and physically she is VERY primitive...A transitional species from the point where prosimians split off from what would be the haplorrhines ( monkeys, apes, humans) she shows major characteristics of both...but lacking many key features of a lemur like primate, and more those belonging to primitive monkeys which were JUST showing up in very small numbers at the time of her death. Ida is a juvenile, most likely under a year old given by her baby teeth, so she does not give us ALL the details on her species as she could were she an adult...but she offers more than enough to then estimate any missing details based on what we know of species around her time, before, and after.


remember too in the 4.6 billion years earth has been around...life on land, going from amphibians, insects, all the way to today has been little less than that last second before the clock strikes a new hour.
 

darkstarangel

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Ah a typical highschool textbook answer. First of all my faith needs not defending & although i am a man of faith sadly i dont have enough to blindly accept evolution without question. Oh & darwinian evolution is more of a hypothesis than theory because theories can be observed & tested. Since watching one animal gradually "evolve" to a completely different animal hasnt been observed it shall remain a hypothetical concept.

Now onto some real meat. Yes its a lemur, possibly a different species of lemur hence some minor superficial differences (this is speciation not evolution) but its a lemur none the less.
You mentioned beneficial mutations. These do not ad genetic information but are actually a removal of it. They are only benefical if 1. loss or malfunction of the mutated protein is not vital for life & 2. loss of the proteins ability becomes an advantage in survival. This usually applies diseases. Some people dont require certain vaccines because the virus or parasite requires a particular protein or biomolecule to reproduce & make us sick (basically using our own bodys chemistry against us)

Mutated genes wont survive because 1. benefical mutations as mentioned above are rarer than disadvantageous or fatal mutations. 2 theyre recessive, being drowned out by the healthier counterpart & 3. Polymerase 3 enzyme is a protein in all living organisms from the simplest of bacteria to humans. This is the genomes fail safe against mutations. If a nucleotide base is missing or where it shouldnt be this protein will correct the copying mistake.

You also need to consider mutations on the genetic level. Proteins are made up of a chain of amino acids. The sequence determines what shape & function that protein will have. On few proteins a slight deviation can have little affect but on a lot slight deviations can be harmful or disadvantageous like progeria (rapid aging in infants who die of old age by age 13) & sickle cell anaemia (blood cells collapse when offloading oxygen) This condition is painful & can be fatal for the victim but atleast are immune to malaria (beneficial mutation?) These conditions are due to one single base change.

Have you herd of pseudogenes or non-protein coding DNA? Pseudogenes are copys of protein coding genes. You see our Chromosomes dont just make proteins They also tell which cells what proteins to make, when to make them & stop making them.
If hypothetically a new gene 'mutated' it would need a copy or pseudogene to tell the cell to translate the new gene into a protein. Or is an existing protein mutated into another type, its pseudogene copy would need to mutate the same sequence (what are the chance???)

On that note, the confirmation of my faith in a creator God is in our perfect design. Why do we have everything we need to survive? How could we have survived before it evolved? eg. breathing, digesting, defaecating, reproducing etc.
Why are all enzymes of digestion in our digestive systems? Why are our bones not only designed to lock in place but are of a shape to accomedate muscles, nerves, arteries & veins?
Why do birds have all the features neccessary for flight eg. Feathers, sternum, tail feathers, hollow bones & preening gland (for lubricating feathers)? Why are a snakes venom glands around the fangs & not ontop of its head or tail end or on its butt?

Random chance mutations (the supposed driving force for evolution) cannot give one creature all the features it needs gradually over millions of years for survival let alone put them in the right place & especially if they cannot survive before those features are complete.

Sorry for this long winded answer but there is so much i want to put across. But seriously, if that lemur was a transitional fossil. Why arent there billions of all different transitional forms linking humans with apes...or lemurs.
If we mutated from an ape how is it that as the apes foot with prehensile toe mutates to a human foot that the other foot conveniently mutates exactly to a human foot? Why not one foot then one hoof, claw or fin.
The key to random chance mutations is theyre random. Unlike a design evolution is unintentional, an accident.
Look at all the machines in the world today. Look at your car (if you have one) is its mechanics & performance due to intelligent design or merely a colossal 'lucky' accident?
 

Skeleon

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darkstarangel said:
Mutated genes wont survive because 1. benefical mutations as mentioned above are rarer than disadvantageous or fatal mutations.
While it's true that they are rarer (simply because of their random nature), that doesn't mean they don't survive. On the contrary. A mutated gene might be the edge over othe other members of its species an animal needs to procreate. In time, this trait might even become one of the main marks of its species' local population.

2 theyre recessive, being drowned out by the healthier counterpart
Recessive doesn't mean they're "drowned out". The chances to transmit it are actually the same as for a dominant allele. It just means that the allel isn't expressed if a dominat allele is present as well. This is why dark-haired people can have blonde children if they had blonde grandparents or similar.

3. Polymerase 3 enzyme is a protein in all living organisms from the simplest of bacteria to humans. This is the genomes fail safe against mutations. If a nucleotide base is missing or where it shouldnt be this protein will correct the copying mistake.
True, but as all biological systems, it's prone to errors. And some mutations are resistant to repair.
Think of cancer. It's based on genetic changes as well but the body can't repair the damage.
I really like this as an example because it shows the ability of adaption in nature very well. Cancer isn't static, it changes over time.
Apply medication (i.e. pressure) and the cancer will retreat, be killed off. But some cells often survive (unfortunately) because of some random mutation. So the cancer comes back, this time with a resistance to the medication used beforehand.

These conditions are due to one single base change.
So? You basically just said it yourself: Some mutations are advantageous.
I don't see the problem. There are helpful and destructive ones.

If hypothetically a new gene 'mutated' it would need a copy or pseudogene to tell the cell to translate the new gene into a protein. Or is an existing protein mutated into another type, its pseudogene copy would need to mutate the same sequence (what are the chance???)
I guess you're talking about epigenetics. You don't require another DNA-copy, though, what you need is an RNA-copy which is created whenever a proteine is to be produced. Yes, epigenetics control which proteines are produced in which cell but it's on a different level than the actual amino-acid code.
Even if what you said about pseudogenes was true, the chances might be slim but that wouldn't matter if you apply enough time.

Why do we have everything we need to survive?
Because otherwise our non-human ancestors wouldn't have survived to this day and wouldn't have had the chance to adapt and change into us.
And we are far from perfect, mind, loads of vestigials and weak points in our body. But they haven't been hampering our procreation so they didn't die off.

How could we have survived before it evolved? eg. breathing, digesting, defaecating, reproducing etc.
Well, some small organisms survive by diffusion (they don't breathe with lungs or take in food through a mouth) through their cell membranes.
However, you'd first have to accept the possibility that we evolved from bacteria to consider the evidence.
Let's just say: While your body may take in food, munch it and digest it, the actual absorbtion of food still works the same way it did with bacteria: Diffusion, sometimes carrier proteines.
As for cellular breathing, we even have bacteria to do the job for us! Mitochondria!

Why are all enzymes of digestion in our digestive systems?
Because our digestive enzymes are quite aggressive. They do not differentiate between our body or food. We can see this with pancreatitis: Dying cells release the enzymes in the wrong place and the pancreas basically digests itself. Obviously, it's an evolutionary advantage to keep our digestive tract and the rest of our body separated. And not only because of the enzymes but also because of bacteria in our food and so on.

Why are our bones not only designed to lock in place but are of a shape to accomedate muscles, nerves, arteries & veins?
Again, you'd have to start earlier in evolution for this, because bone structures have been a part of land-dwelling animals for a long, long time.
Anyway, let me just say that even this isn't perfect at all. Impingement syndrome, discus prolaps, degenerative arthritis and so on...

Why do birds have all the features neccessary for flight eg. Feathers, sternum, tail feathers, hollow bones & preening gland (for lubricating feathers)?
Ask the dinosaurs, they started the whole feather tomfoolery. I'd assume it started off as a way to protect from cold and changed its uses over time (as body parts often do).

Why are a snakes venom glands around the fangs & not ontop of its head or tail end or on its butt?
Because any snake with its glands on its butt couldn't poison its prey and die of starvation?

Random chance mutations (the supposed driving force for evolution) cannot give one creature all the features it needs gradually over millions of years for survival let alone put them in the right place & especially if they cannot survive before those features are complete.
See, this is the problem right here. It's gradual change. It's not some giant leap in mutation like X-Men suggests. You start off with a functioning animal and introduce/remove aspects through random mutation. These mutations may or may not be advantageous, nature selects.
Those that live get to procreate and keep their mutation intact (either because it was advantageous or didn't matter either way) while the others die off over time (again, it takes thousands of generations).

If we mutated from an ape how is it that as the apes foot with prehensile toe mutates to a human foot that the other foot conveniently mutates exactly to a human foot? Why not one foot then one hoof, claw or fin.
This is actually part of nature. When looking at the various embryos of different species, you not only see our close relation to them (human babies look like fish for quite a while) but also the way they grow: They start off as a single cell, then a ball. The ball becomes hollow and stretches into a long line. The various extremeties or then grown, split and moved to the lateral sides, if I remember correctly. Symmetry has always been a big part of nature because it works in the animals' favour and is simpler than the alternative.

The key to random chance mutations is theyre random. Unlike a design evolution is unintentional, an accident.
But add selective pressure to random mutation and suddenly you get evolution. In its basic form, the concept of evolution is actually very simple and logical.

Look at all the machines in the world today. Look at your car (if you have one) is its mechanics & performance due to intelligent design or merely a colossal 'lucky' accident?
Well, some inventions were accidents, but that's not the point.
A machine can't change over time because it's static. It can only rust and break down.
It can't reproduce.
But mutation and reproduction are essential for any kind of evolution.
 

darkstarangel

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Yeah im still not convinced & i dont believe i put my point accross. I tried but i drifted off so many tangents (it happens much with this subject cos there are so many avenues) Check out www.answersingenesis.org they have all the answers & you can write to them & they will write back with answers.

But ill try to make this brief. The example with birds is that they have all the features necessary for flight. Why dont other animals have features they dont need? Why doesnt a mammal have a preening gland & not feathers or a lizard with feathers but not wings, hollow bones, wings etc?
You see if it doesnt pose a hindrance to survival or doesnt pose a benefit but is neutral then natural selection wont eliminate a somewhat useless trait. There are non venemous snakes in the world & having a growth randomly secreting digestive enzymes or any hormone or fluid somewhere outside of your body may not kill you but it would be a random chance mutation.

My point is the bodies of all living systems even though prone to entropy are still perfect mechanisms & everything is in place not random. Every component co-operating with each other so that where an artery, vein or nerve needs to pass through a bone or organ there is a passage like holes in our jaw bones to let nerves for the face pass through or the left lung having only two lobes to make room for the heart.
For all this co-operation to happen genetically would be like copying an epic novel of several volumes continually expecting random typo's not only to accumulate & add extra words but to change the story in several places without forming contradictions (like killing of a particular character then continuing on with that character as though nothing happened)

Theres so much more but ill keep it short & sweet (well sweet anyway if that) but simply put -Im hearing darwinian explanations for a lemarkian result, if you know what i mean.
 

Haydyn

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Yay, there is another reason to bash Creationists for their personal beliefs...

I mean really, what could be a great discovery is made and the first thing people want to use it as is a weapon against religion. How sad.
 

hypothetical fact

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Haydyn said:
Yay, there is another reason to bash Creationists for their personal beliefs...

I mean really, what could be a great discovery is made and the first thing people want to use it as is a weapon against religion. How sad.
Sad but very entertaining.
 

Break

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darkstarangel said:
But ill try to make this brief. The example with birds is that they have all the features necessary for flight. Why dont other animals have features they dont need? Why doesnt a mammal have a preening gland & not feathers or a lizard with feathers but not wings, hollow bones, wings etc?
You see if it doesnt pose a hindrance to survival or doesnt pose a benefit but is neutral then natural selection wont eliminate a somewhat useless trait. There are non venemous snakes in the world & having a growth randomly secreting digestive enzymes or any hormone or fluid somewhere outside of your body may not kill you but it would be a random chance mutation.
But... Yeah. That's perfectly true. If animals developed over time, then of course, we would have features and organs that have become useless. And, y'know, we do. The appendix being the most popular example. Something that's useless, yet isn't obstructive enough to survival that it's an advantage to be born without one. I don't know where you've gotten this idea that all living beings are perfectly built, without useless organs or features.
 

DalekJaas

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Damn I can't quote anyone. I hate these threads. Its the one time where ignorance runs ripe on the Escapist. I have studied evolution at school and uni and I'm convinced. I attended a christain school and learnt about one of the bazillion forms of christianity as a kid (you know that time where people brain wash you) and I have studied enough to believe God is a fallacy. I also extensively followed the court case where LEGALLY CREATIONISM WAS PROVEN TO BE A LOAD OF SH*T SO WHY ARE PEOPLE ARGUING FOR IT!!!!

But its never good in an arguement to flaunt your own credentials.

Guess what? Gravity is a STILL A THEORY! Think about that the next time an apple falls off the tree and floats into the sky. Evolution has so much evidence and its disappointing to see that humans still worship primitive sky gods. And worse yet to see that they try to relate their sky gods to credible theories. But I spose Greek and babylonian and egyptian religions lasted longer than christainity has, christainity just needs to run out. People need a new religious fad. hopefully its scientology, so everyone can be poor and retarded.
 

DalekJaas

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the7ofswords said:
DalekJaas said:
... so everyone can be poor and retarded.
And that's different from Christianity how, exactly?
Umm because lots of christains are ordinary people with ordinary incomes? Ordinary people who become scientologists end up broke usually.
 

iTz Br3nd3n

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Yes, it is. You have to believe that the science is correct... it's not ALL fact I dont think they have every piece and bit to say that all evolution is all FACT your believing that it's there.
 

darkstarangel

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Iv gotten the idea from countless anatomy books & biology text books. Unfortunately i do know where you've gotten the idea that we have useless organs. About 80 years ago it was belived there were about 150 vestigial organs in the human body. Now there are none. The appendix produces antibodies & quite conveniently so considering how much bacteria there is in the colon. Sure its prone to infection & inflamation & needs to be removed when it does but the fact that it can get infected answers why we need antibodies in that part of the body.

Darwinists are constantly searching a perfectly created body for any sign of organic uselessnes or genetic mess (& when they find something theyre quick to label it vestigial before discovering its purpose or function)
But if we were evolved then we creationists should be searching a body composed entirely of vestigial features & undirected mutations for anything remotely designed to argue for divine creation.

& yeah theres heaps of superficial features on the human body that we can survive without but it doesnt mean they dont have a purpose. After all the radio or windscreen wipers on a car arent necessary for driving but they still provide a purpose for convenience.
But hey, as i say to all evolutionists who claim we have vestigial features, 'If you think its useless, cut it off.'
If the coccyx is still considered vestigial then im buying shares in whatever companies manufacture wheelchairs.