Nintendo doing it right, or everyone else doing it wrong?

[Penitent]

Or maybe you're just a fanboy for them?

It's no shame really. Many are.

I'm afraid if i insult mario or metroid you would find my house and rape me with a wrench *gulp.

Sweet mercy me. Sorry, but did you actually read his post?
A fanboy is someone who supports a brand (in this case, a console) simply because they are that brand, and does not offer any honest opinion towards why he appreciates them or finds his choices to be better than its competitors. Any comments the fanboy/fangirl does make tend to be inflammatory and/or unnecessarily hostile towards people who otherwise might not have been provocative or deserving of such unmannerly mistreatment.

That is not how Graustein was speaking. He gave honest, fair reasons as to why he preferred the Wii over the other consoles: reasons which he has defended quite well in the face of inquiry. (Agreeing with him on his points and personally believing the Wii is viable for a serious gamer, I can safely testify over 70 hours of gameplay so far that Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn is indeed the nads.) There aren't any inconsistencies or unwarranted bias in his posts - if you honestly think there are, then ask politely and hopefully your confusion/query will be cleared up. But don't jump the gun and start assuming the worst case scenario of people, please.

As to the main topic, I think that in an alternate timeline where Nintendo went with the more traditional method Sony and Microsoft have both vied for in this generation, the nature of this thread would be very different. The very existence of the Wii and its audacity to attempt this strategy in itself has raised the question as to whether or not the game industry has been approached the wrong way all along. So therefore, I am inclined to believe that the correct answer is a mixture of both - the Wii isn't perfect but it is definitely moving in a positive direction, and the very 'hardcore' attitudes of the Xbox 360 and PS3 may have, ironically, been more constricting to the public than open.

 

[weirdaljedifan2]

I've thought of buying a wii, but then I thought, I like GOOD graphics , not whatever the the hell thier trying to pass off, so I'm sticking to a PS2 till the PS3 either gets more games, or goes down in price

Does that mean you hate the Atari 2600 or the NES or even the DS? Also, if all you think about is how good the graphics are, then consider yourself, IMO, a moron. Just my opinion.

 

[Jumplion]

Poor Graphics.

It's not her fault that she has to put on 3 layers of make up a day just to impress you!

She always gets tossed around like a whore, people saying that they don't care for her while others just throw her away as long as one of her sisters, Gameplay or Story, is still good in bed.

She just wants to impress you, she's quite good in bed if you give her a chance to put on her makeup, makes the ordeal go by smoother.

Hell, I had a Threesome with all of them at once when MGS4 sold them to me! Quite an interesting ordeal if I do say so myself.

I'm just saying, poor graphics.

And looking back at this post, I'm wondering "What the hell am I rambling about?".

 

[Caliostro]

You're operating under the erroneous assumption that we're living in such a great world where such things can happen

Half Life ("and all it's runty children" as yahtzee would put it)
Crysis/Warhead
CoD4
GTAIV
Painkiller
Assassin's Creed
Portal (although admittedly Portal's graphics weren't earth shattering, but they were pretty enough)
Bioshock
God of War series
...


Good Graphics isn't directly or indirectly proportional to bad gameplay. Bad developer, however, IS directly proportional to bad gameplay.

Correction: better graphics=better graphics

You sprinkle some sparkly dust onto shit, it looks nicer but its still shit. And both sides are assuming its about them needing to stick to a budget. But penny pinching is only part of the problem.

If people buy shitty games just because they have good graphics (which they do) then companies realise thats all they have to do to make money. I haven't played a single Xbox 360 game with gameplay I would rate as more than a 7/10 (with the possible exception of Call of Duty 4) and I haven't ever rated any PC shooting game to be very good either. I do not consider PC controls for shooting and adventure (not including point and click obviously) as intuitive or fun. Mind you I can't say that I rate any Wii games any higher but my point is that even on their own better graphics cannot make a game better because if better graphics were on their own it would not be a game. It would be a fucking awful film like Clone Wars or Metal Gear Solid 4.

And better gameplay = better gameplay.

Yeah better graphics alone won't make a bad game good, but they'll make a bad game "slightly less bad" and a good game better. See above.

 

[tobyornottoby]

You're operating under the erroneous assumption that we're living in such a great world where such things can happen

Half Life ("and all it's runty children" as yahtzee would put it)
Crysis/Warhead
CoD4
GTAIV
Painkiller
Assassin's Creed
Portal (although admittedly Portal's graphics weren't earth shattering, but they were pretty enough)
Bioshock
God of War series
...


Good Graphics isn't directly or indirectly proportional to bad gameplay. Bad developer, however, IS directly proportional to bad gameplay.

Yeah you're right, enough exceptions. However, as said before, those exceptions come from established developers bluiding on established ideas...

Then again, I wonder, if you put those games on both a list rating the gameplay and one rating the graphics... as you said, Portal with it's awesome gameplay had merely 'pretty' graphics while I don't hear people about how awesome the overall gameplay from Crysis or AC was...
(if the gameplay is proven, as in #4 of the series or Bioshock, then yes, the focus can be on the graphics (which is why I like remakes in general))

BTW: I like graphics, and I'm willing to sacrifice gameplay fun for it if it's appropriate Because for me the overall experience might be greater that way

[Mind you I can't say that I rate any Wii games any higher but my point is that even on their own better graphics cannot make a game better because if better graphics were on their own it would not be a game. It would be a fucking awful film like Clone Wars or Metal Gear Solid 4.

Poor Graphics.

She always gets tossed around like a whore, people saying that they don't care for her while others just throw her away as long as one of her sisters, Gameplay or Story, is still good in bed.

Hell, I had a Threesome with all of them at once when MGS4 sold them to me! Quite an interesting ordeal if I do say so myself.

 

[Jumplion]

BTW: I like graphics, and I'm willing to sacrifice gameplay fun for it if it's appropriate Because for me the overall experience might be greater that way

[Mind you I can't say that I rate any Wii games any higher but my point is that even on their own better graphics cannot make a game better because if better graphics were on their own it would not be a game. It would be a fucking awful film like Clone Wars or Metal Gear Solid 4.

Poor Graphics.

She always gets tossed around like a whore, people saying that they don't care for her while others just throw her away as long as one of her sisters, Gameplay or Story, is still good in bed.

Hell, I had a Threesome with all of them at once when MGS4 sold them to me! Quite an interesting ordeal if I do say so myself.

Well, he's entitled to his opinion (though he's obviously never played MGS4 ), but I'm just worried what Graphics is doing lately. She's been getting heavily drunk with the JRPGs and I'm afraid they'll sell her back to Crytech....they always push her a little bit to hard and after that she requires alot of support both mentaly and physically with her boyfriend "Gaming Rig".

 

[Jumplion]

And better gameplay = better gameplay.

Yeah better graphics alone won't make a bad game good, but they'll make a bad game "slightly less bad" and a good game better. See above.

Problem with that is that if the game is shitty but the graphics are still nice, people will call "bullshit!" on the developers and claim they were spending to much time on the graphics.

Poor, poor, graphics....

 

[DYin01]

It seems as if they're trying to make the Wii for everyone, but everyone with a little basic knowledge of marketing should know that 'A product for everyone is a product for no one''.

 

[Caliostro]

Yeah you're right, enough exceptions. However, as said before, those exceptions come from established developers bluiding on established ideas...

Then again, I wonder, if you put those games on both a list rating the gameplay and one rating the graphics... as you said, Portal with it's awesome gameplay had merely 'pretty' graphics while I don't hear people about how awesome the overall gameplay from Crysis or AC was...
(if the gameplay is proven, as in #4 of the series or Bioshock, then yes, the focus can be on the graphics (which is why I like remakes in general))

BTW: I like graphics, and I'm willing to sacrifice gameplay fun for it if it's appropriate Because for me the overall experience might be greater that way

Yes I included all of those for gameplay and graphics. I made a note for portal because, while quite pretty and adequate the graphics in portal do pale a bit in comparison to, say, Bioshock or Crysis. But they're still very pretty and "clean".

You should try Crysis (Warhead has better gameplay, but you should play the original Crysis first
) or AC if you like those kind of games.

Sweet mercy me. Sorry, but did you actually read his post?
A fanboy is someone who supports a brand (in this case, a console) simply because they are that brand, and does not offer any honest opinion towards why he appreciates them or finds his choices to be better than its competitors.

Actually a fanboy/girl is someone who will love any game of a specific brand/franchise despite all of it's flaws, which they consistently overlook through a reinforced concrete wall of denial.

I stopped answering the other guy because it became clear as day he was a Class-A fanboy. "LOVE THE WII, SNES AND GAMECUBE and anything with "super" and "mario" in the same title, don't like things for PS and Xbox". It's just pointless and futile. Arguing with a fanboy is akin to trying to pick your nose with a boxing glove.

Problem with that is that if the game is shitty but the graphics are still nice, people will call "bullshit!" on the developers and claim they were spending to much time on the graphics.

Poor, poor, graphics....

Yeah... In those cases it's generally true, but the game itself is still better with better graphics... Doesn't mean good graphics will be enough to make up for it's utter failure in everything else though.

 

[Fanboy]

Sweet mercy me. Sorry, but did you actually read his post?
A fanboy is someone who supports a brand (in this case, a console) simply because they are that brand, and does not offer any honest opinion towards why he appreciates them or finds his choices to be better than its competitors.

Actually a fanboy/girl is someone who will love any game of a specific brand/franchise despite all of it's flaws, which they consistently overlook through a reinforced concrete wall of denial.

That doesn't sound like me at all...

I thought I had fun playing the wii, but I guess I'm just in denial.

 

[Brockyman]

I think that you're missing the point. While consoles still "compete" with each other, it's different then the Genesis vs Super Nintendo or Playstation 2 vs Xbox vx Gamecube.

Each system has it's own appeal, and from the majority of posts I've seen, people own more then one console to get each one's specialty.

I personally have a 360 and a PS3. 360 for exclusives and Xbox Live, and the PS3 for it's exclusives and the Blu-ray function.

I'm still in limbo about the Wii. I think its great that Nintendo is doing something new and interesting, and I like it in a party atmosphere or with friends over (like Gutiar Hero or Rock Band). However I've played it alone, and it just doesn't thrill me. I don't like the Wiimote for control in "normal" games (ie not Wii Sports/Fit, but like Zelda, Mario ect).

So, its honestly about personal likes and dislikes and how much you can afford.

 

[Cheesus333]

For years now I've greatly disliked Nintendo.

Not to sound fascist, but I absolutely cannot see how you are still alive. Is there any joy in your life if you can't enjoy Nintendo? ordibnarily I would like to think that I'm fairly tolerant of other people's views, but this is something I simply cannot comprehend.

There's too mch hate in this thread! Maybe fanboyism (bit of an inappropriate term in today's politically correct world) is nothing more than denial for the sake of happiness, but what the hell's wrong with that? At the end of that day, when you narrow it down anything and everything we do is to make us happier - even breathing. So even if I do deny Nintendo's numerous faults that you all seem to pick at, at least I'm happy with it, which is clearly something you are not.

 

[Penitent]

There's too mch hate in this thread!

Agreed. From my experience, fans seem to be the most negative of critics, and gamers tend to fall into that mark.

Maybe fanboyism (bit of an inappropriate term in today's politically correct world) is nothing more than denial for the sake of happiness, but what the hell's wrong with that? At the end of that day, when you narrow it down anything and everything we do is to make us happier - even breathing. So even if I do deny Nintendo's numerous faults that you all seem to pick at, at least I'm happy with it, which is clearly something you are not.

I have mixed feelings on this. Let it be made clear that there is nothing wrong with having a personal opinion or preference, before anything else is said. I've noticed that many of Nintendo's more famous games so far have been directed more to enjoying the moment and having fun rather than be complicated, deep systems which require hours to days to weeks of investment to meet the standards of the difficulty curve - it's not exactly the step which they started at with Super Mario Bros.

At the same time, there's always the danger behind that fanboy/girl passing off his/her own opinion as fact and behaving ignorantly. Their narrow minded attitude, be it when s/he explains his choice with nothing more than "because it's better" or when s/he feels the urge to aggravate another fan of an opposing or even adjacent console/franchise. That arrogant cynicism is what arouses negativity, which - as childhood lessons dictate - incites rather beastial behaviour that is all too woefully common on internet forums. D:

Actually a fanboy/girl is someone who will love any game of a specific brand/franchise despite all of it's flaws, which they consistently overlook through a reinforced concrete wall of denial.

Are you sure that's the perfect definition? I think your view and mine, when both put into context of reason, match the bill accurately, but I think you might also be overlooking the power of intellect combined with personal taste. There are several games which I love that I can spot the flaws in quite clearly and would hinder me from giving the finest of scores in - Republic Commando was too short and the AI needed improvement, TWEWY didn't make sufficient use of its other ideas like imprinting and memes - but I still give them very positive approvals because of their benefits. Does this make me a fanboy?

I stopped answering the other guy because it became clear as day he was a Class-A fanboy. "LOVE THE WII, SNES AND GAMECUBE and anything with "super" and "mario" in the same title, don't like things for PS and Xbox". It's just pointless and futile. Arguing with a fanboy is akin to trying to pick your nose with a boxing glove.

That sounds like jumping the gun all too early. I know the pain of debating/reasoning with someone too convinced of their belief for their own good, but between you and Graustein, he so far seems to be the more reasonable by far.

A quirk of the mind seems to be that personal preference can work towards the insanitary. There are hardcore gamers out there who prefer the Wii over the 360 or PS3 that might - just might - not be the dreaded stereotype you accuse Graustein of being. There's always room for that honest-to-goodness opinion that is futile to force change unto.

But I might be wrong.

 

[Caliostro]

Not to sound fascist, but I absolutely cannot see how you are still alive. Is there any joy in your life if you can't enjoy Nintendo? ordibnarilyordinarily I would like to think that I'm fairly tolerant of other people's views, but this is something I simply cannot comprehend.

I'll come back to this one in a bit.

There's too mch hate in this thread! Maybe fanboyism (bit of an inappropriate term in today's politically correct world) is nothing more than denial for the sake of happiness, but what the hell's wrong with that? At the end of that day, when you narrow it down anything and everything we do is to make us happier - even breathing. So even if I do deny Nintendo's numerous faults that you all seem to pick at, at least I'm happy with it, which is clearly something you are not.

I think Yahtzee put it best in his Mailbag Showdown [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/37-Mailbag-Showdown] session: "I never really understood the almost crusader like fervor that consoles attract, most people would say it's because your mom's only ready to buy you one console and if it turns out you didn't pick the winner the best thing to do is to go into denial until the very fabric of reality spontaneously changes because god knows that's more likely to happen than you admitting fault."

Also "politically correct" can go fuck itself.

Are you sure that's the perfect definition? I think your view and mine, when both put into context of reason, match the bill accurately, but I think you might also be overlooking the power of intellect combined with personal taste. There are several games which I love that I can spot the flaws in quite clearly and would hinder me from giving the finest of scores in - Republic Commando was too short and the AI needed improvement, TWEWY didn't make sufficient use of its other ideas like imprinting and memes - but I still give them very positive approvals because of their benefits. Does this make me a fanboy?

Depends. If you can see the game's flaws but enjoy playing it anyways, that's a matter of personal opinion and not really arguable. On the other hand if you think those games are perfect and will steadfastly dismiss any and all ideas that maybe something in those games wasn't just right because it would destroy your iconic image of the game/franchise/brand/whatever, if you're not even willing to accept the game might have flaws even if you enjoy the overall game, then you've descended into the realm of fanboism.

That sounds like jumping the gun all too early. I know the pain of debating/reasoning with someone too convinced of their belief for their own good, but between you and Graustein, he so far seems to be the more reasonable by far.

A quirk of the mind seems to be that personal preference can work towards the insanitary. There are hardcore gamers out there who prefer the Wii over the 360 or PS3 that might - just might - not be the dreaded stereotype you accuse Graustein of being. There's always room for that honest-to-goodness opinion that is futile to force change unto.

But I might be wrong.

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying people can't like, or even love, the Wii, for instances. But look at his post... His entire argument basically comes down to "I love Wii games. Wii games are good. I love SNES and Gamecube. They are also good. I don't like PS3 or Xbox360 games, they are not good". That's fanboy 101 right there. Take this guy as an example:

Not to sound fascist, but I absolutely cannot see how you are still alive. Is there any joy in your life if you can't enjoy Nintendo? ordibnarily I would like to think that I'm fairly tolerant of other people's views, but this is something I simply cannot comprehend.

(told you we'd get back to you)

Is there REALLY a point trying to have an intelligent debate here? He doesn't even accept that -MAYBE- other people don't find the Wii appealing or find the fact that Nintendo basically just repeats the same shit over, and over, and over, and over, and over again to milk out their fans a bit amoral and somewhat disgusting. To him Nintendo is like god, and if tomorrow they announced bankruptcy this guy would be amongst the first to take a leap of faith of a tall building wearing a "SEE YOU IN HEAVEN MIYAMOTO <3" tshirt. Seriously, he probably has a Nintendo shrine.

That said I accept the point some people are making (or trying) that the Wii is better as a socialization tool with the more casual gamers. Much like a XXI century party game.

 

[Maddenfreak]

oh no, you've hurt my felings. but maybe I should rephrase what I said earlier, Compared to say X-Box360 and PS3, the Wii is not even in the same breath as them when it comes to graphics, That doesn't mean thats all I care about, I also like games with a plot, And Nintendo doesn't seem to have that many, I mean, Mario could make since no matter what copy you pick up. Zelda, I've never played so I wouldn't know if it has a plot. And those are Nintendoes franchises. all their other games for the Wii, Sport,Fit etc...have no plot so I dont want to buy it. I guess if you want to summerize what i've just said, I like playing games that I can get into.

 

[RufusMcLaser]

A long time ago someone summed up Nintendo's gameplan as "Let's make games that are accessible to everyone." It seems to have worked for them, and since we (or at least, most of us) live in a free-market economy with multiple options I don't have anything to complain about. If I had to buy a console tomorrow, it'd be a Wii for my (non-gaming) wife & son.

 

[Heroic One]

Quality isn't important anymore in every other market out there, why would video games be any different?

 

[Lewrawen]

Flame War risk alert Rising!

Try saying that the second this topic started -_-