No, it isn't OK.

[HellsingerAngel]

post 217

I love you so fucking hard right now.

Ar-Are you coming onto me? D=

*side-steps slowly away from Swollen Goat*



Heheh, oh context, you make the best jokes =P

 

[Peteron]

Right and wrong is merely an opinion created by common belief. I do not agree with this behavior, but who am I to say it is incorrect. There are no guidelines or rules in life, so technically calling it wrong is incorrect. You could say it isn't OK to you, but you cannot say it isn't OK as a whole.

Right and wrong is common sense. Common sense tells us what is right and wrong. Common sense should tell you that discriminating against a group of individuals solely for who they are, when who they are has no affect on your life or society in any inherently negative way, is irrational and should be treated as such.

A little bit late to post there? You are incorrect. You think it is wrong to discriminate because we are told it is wrong. Television, parenting, hell, everything around us tells us this is wrong. People way back didn't like various types of people! For example, when Africans were shipped to various parts of the world and enslaved, very few people saw this action as incorrect! Would you like to know why? This is because they were told this was OK! They grew up believing that they were lesser beings, thus did not deserve the same treatment! The trigger in your head that says "What I am doing is wrong!" is determined by the way you were raised, and the influences around you! The reason your head tells you that discrimination is bad, is because that is how you are raised. I also am against discrimination, entirely due to how I grew up.

 

[whycantibelinus]

Hey man, bigots are people too. You know what I want to know? What the hell is with all the hate on bigots?! Just because they don't like someone for no reason then they themselves should be hated?! What the Hell?!?! Bigots of the world unite! We have to protect our right to discriminate and unfairly judge anyone and everyone or else the establishment will just pluck it right from our hands like candy from a baby!

No no, in all seriousness is it fucked up to be a prejudice bigot? Oh most definitely. Is it necessarily "wrong"? No. Right and wrong, if viewed from a strictly scientific point of view, are subjective. Every single person in the world has a different idea of right and wrong. A lot of people tend to agree on certain things being right and wrong but that doesn't necessarily mean its wrong in the universal sense of the world.

 

[Vryyk]

Your friend should talk to the step-dad, and discuss his views and really explain them and get to the heart of the issue. You already know the main cause of his bigotry so that's a good first step. Your friend should walk through it with the step-dad, and then just explain why feeling that way is wrong, and why having negatively biased views against an entire group of people is wrong. It's a good teachable moment, to help guide someone to eliminating bigoted ideals. Because bigotry is just as harmful to the bigot as it is to the person they are bigoted towards. It's a burden people carry with them forever. And it's something that should be eliminated for the good of the human collective.[/quote]

I'm having trouble being angry at you here since you seem to have good intentions, and I agree with you on a basic level, but he is 42, the time for teaching him is over. He keeps his bias to himself, it's his business. It's neither mine nor my roommate's job to "bring him around", that's up to him. Plus he's an ex-marine. If you've ever met one I'm sure you'll agree they tend to be stubborn.

 

[philzibit]

However, bigoted beliefs against these groups is most certainly a choice.

No, not really. Depending on where you live, your upbringing, and your religion, it becomes less of a choice to the person and more of a fact. Not to say racism, sexism, ect is right, but to some people, that's what they were brought up to believe. Like the expression goes, "you can't teach an old dog new tricks."

Great example, black kid grows up in the ghetto; has people tell him all his life that white people are the cause of him being poor and in the ghetto. The result is him hating white people for no factual reason.

Also, opinions can't be wrong. No matter how misguided, illogical, and/or stupid they may be, a persons beliefs can't be wrong, because it's what they believe.

A persons' beliefs can definitely be wrong. If someone believes a turkey is a chicken, they are wrong. If a person believes all Muslims are terrorists, they are wrong. If someone is indoctrinated into bigotry, that's obviously a shame. But it's up to that person, once they get to the real world, to begin to understand what their beliefs mean, and common sense should then lead them to realize the errors in the things they were taught. Indoctrination isn't the best of excuses, though, because plenty of people have grown up in situations around people who are bigoted and not become bigoted themselves. You have to be strong, independent, and rational minded. Not everyone has these traits, unfortunately.

In the real world, indoctrination or not, people need to realize that their traditionally held beliefs may not be the end all be all they were taught. When you grow up, one should learn, grow and develop into better people. And that includes making any irrationally held biases things of the past. If you know a bigoted person, talk to them and enlighten them, and guide them into thinking critically about why they feel the way they do, and maybe open the door into their realization that their beliefs aren't really valid. None of us should just allow bad behavior to continue unchecked because of the damages it truly causes to the world at large.

Human beings have free will. Free will to choose what they believe. I live in an area composed of mostly white, Christian, farmer types. They told me what to believe, what they thought was right, yet I made up my own mind. I'm not Christian and not a bigot, I believe in what I think is right. Of course, so do they.

In not letting people believe what they want to believe, trying to change them and not accepting them for who they are, we're racist, just like them.

It's up to the individual to change, they have to realize that what they believe is misguided. You can sit down with a person, explain to them in the nicest way possible, but in the end, we'd just be telling them they're wrong.

 

[101flyboy]

I think a lot of you are being hypocrites, because you condemn the WBC and say they are bad individuals justifiably, but then when I say that they are WRONG and that they need to be CONDEMNED for what they are about, that's somehow not OK for me to say. It's not OK to call a spade a spade and label people bad according to the bad things they are about? That's not reality, people. Not everything is debatable or has a right or wrong decision of them. Some things are wrong and need to be labeled as such, or those bad things could be accepted as OK, to the detriment of us all.

 

[DragunovHUN]

Yes, people are entitled to their opinions. That doesn't make them right, they're still wrong

That's just your opinion and therefore you're wrong.

 

[101flyboy]

Yes, people are entitled to their opinions. That doesn't make them right, they're still wrong

That's just your opinion and therefore you're wrong.

Rape is acceptable.

Opinion? Or wrong?

 

[COMaestro]

I cast resurrection on this thread. And it lives again!

I was just going through my old posts (I don't have many so it didn't take long) but got gripped by this thread again and had to read everything that came after my post. The OP has strong opinions over right and wrong and it is clear to see that no amount of argument or examples are going to change his mind that his beliefs are "right" and those who disagree are wrong. For example, his last and probably most blatant attempt to show how he is right:

Yes, people are entitled to their opinions. That doesn't make them right, they're still wrong

That's just your opinion and therefore you're wrong.

Rape is acceptable.

Opinion? Or wrong?

In today's society and by today's laws (in America at least) rape is wrong. I also personally believe (<--- key word) that rape is wrong. Taking away a person's power and using them for your own pleasure violates their rights, which I believe to be wrong. However, there have been societies and cultures in the past where a man could have his way with a woman (or at least a certain class of woman) at any time and that was acceptable.

What is right and what is wrong changes depending on what society as a whole believes, what you mistakenly keep referring to as "common sense" (which is also rarely common). The Cambridge Dictionary defines common sense as, "the basic level of practical knowledge and judgment that we all need to help us live in a reasonable and safe way". So this would fall more under "don't stick your hand in a fire," "don't jump off the roof of a five story building," and other examples of living in a "reasonable and safe way."

A persons' beliefs can definitely be wrong. If someone believes a turkey is a chicken, they are wrong.

This example does not support your argument. There are concrete definitions of what makes a turkey and what makes a chicken. These can be used to show a turkey is not a chicken. What we think and what we believe are not concrete, they are amorphous and can change. 2+2=4. This is concrete, a fact, no other answer can be correct. It is wrong to hate white people. Hatred is a feeling or opinion, which is not set in stone. Feelings and opinions can be changed, for the worse or the better. So a feeling or opinion cannot be "wrong" as it cannot be considered a fact.

However, I will grant you that not all Muslims are terrorists, you got that one right. Though since there is no sign on someone's head that says "I am a terrorist", it is forgivable for someone to be uncomfortable or fearful around a Muslim person. Just look at the Libyan and Cairo assaults on American Consulates a month ago. I know I might feel a little uncomfortable if I was near a group of Muslims, even though I know they had nothing to do with these assaults and possibly even disapprove of them. My feeling is not "wrong", as there is something to base it upon, even if it is somewhat irrational.

To further your rape example and apply it to other aspects of the thread, let's view a hypothetical situation. Say a black woman is abused and raped by 7 white men. Because of this, she develops an irrational fear of white men (or possibly men in general) and cannot be around them without panicking. So, to put the question back to you, is she "wrong" for her beliefs?

Sure, with therapy, perhaps she can overcome this fear and interact with white men in the future. It is true that not every white man on the planet would have an interest in raping or abusing this woman, so her fear is irrational, but I do not think I could call it "wrong" either.

Let's move on to a different example:

Anyway, no, it's not acceptable to be bigoted. It's that simple, and it should be treated as the negative thing it is. There is absolutely nothing redeeming in being against legal adult citizens solely for who they are. Wrong is wrong. We need to stop the PC crap and call things out for what they are.

So what about illegal adult immigrants? Can I be against them? Again, I have nothing against most people, however I did grow up in Southern California. It is frustrating to know that an illegal immigrant can essentially get welfare, free health care and even a job without following the legal procedures for becoming an American citizen. Do I hate these illegal immigrants? No. Do I believe other people have the right to hate or resent illegal immigrants because of this? Abso-freakin'-lutely. Is their hatred irrational? I don't think so. Do they have the right to voice their hatred? Yes.

Can they act on their hatred? No. That is where pretty much everyone is this thread is in agreement. I believe all humans have the rights to live and believe how they want as long as they do not infringe upon someone else's rights in the process. Only in infringing upon someone else's rights is a person "wrong". Again, this is what I BELIEVE, and I could be wrong. Your insistence that prejudiced people are "wrong" and that in order to be contributing members of society they must overcome their prejudices is trying to force your beliefs on them. You are trying to infringe on their right to believe how they want to believe. So by my definition above, by wanting to deny bigots or intolerant people their right to think what they want to think, you are in the wrong.

I hate green peppers! They taste terrible and they make me break out in hives! No one should even THINK about eating green peppers. So, is it wrong to eat green peppers? For me, yes, or at least it would be stupid. For anyone else, of course not, nor is thinking about it wrong. You are merely making this argument against green peppers, but just escalating it to a larger issue.

I could go on with more examples, but it will just keep going around in circles. OP, your argument is based solely on your beliefs and experiences. Earlier you mentioned that you were of four or five different ethnic backgrounds so you were not racist at all. Does this mean that you were indoctrinated into your beliefs by your environment growing up? Yes. You believe the way you do because of the way you were raised and your life experiences to this point. You feel that your beliefs are "right" so any opinions that go against yours are "wrong." You also seem to believe that by simply pointing out to those who disagree with you, you can make them see how they are "wrong" and change their minds. It is very naive, for one thing. But additionally, you are trivializing another person's beliefs.

The only way to totally eliminate any intolerance and bigotry would be to remove all women's breasts and genitalia, remove all men's genitailia, remove all hair, make everyone's skin purple, and to continue the species have reproduction done in a lab environment. Then there would be no obvious difference in gender or skin, so who you were attracted to would not matter in terms of homo- or hetero-sexuality. Oh, and we'd probably have to abolish all religions. Does this violate anyone's rights? Oh, everyone's...guess that's not gonna happen then. Besides, then eye color would somehow come into it and there would once again be bigotry.

Wow, I rambled on for quite a bit there on a dead thread. Sorry everyone!