No Man's Sky is starting to look a bit rubbish.

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Maphysto

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Dec 11, 2010
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Can we just make a template for these "Look at me, I don't like No Man's Sky" threads?

"Hey, guys, you know No Man's Sky? Well, I know you may think it looks good, but it is, in fact, BAD! It doesn't live up to any of the arbitrary hype, such as all the imaginary features we projected onto it but were never promised or even hinted at by the developers! And while you may think it looks like a fun romp of space exploration, you'd be wrong! You're not actually allowed to like things that are popular or widely covered; instead, you have to smugly nitpick it so that everyone knows you're one of the "cool guys!"

There. Now we never have to have another of these threads again.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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Maphysto said:
Can we just make a template for these "Look at me, I don't like No Man's Sky" threads?

"Hey, guys, you know No Man's Sky? Well, I know you may think it looks good, but it is, in fact, BAD! It doesn't live up to any of the arbitrary hype, such as all the imaginary features we projected onto it but were never promised or even hinted at by the developers! And while you may think it looks like a fun romp of space exploration, you'd be wrong! You're not actually allowed to like things that are popular or widely covered; instead, you have to smugly nitpick it so that everyone knows you're one of the "cool guys!"

There. Now we never have to have another of these threads again.
Good idea.

While we're at the template workshop can we make a template for people getting sore about someone criticizing or raising concerns about a popular or anticipated game?

"Hey, see that guy who said something that I don't like about a game that I do like? See how he gave some reasons for why he said what he did? Well, I'm going to completely ignore those reasons and furiously tilt at these windmills over here by accusing him of things he never said and suggest that his opinions are not sincere and merely an attempt to look cool by being contrarian!"

There, now I never have to read another one of these posts again.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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In any case I'm willing to give the game a fair shake, regardless of whatever hype/stigma surrounds it. Maybe it will be as boring as people say, and maybe it will be more fun than any typically designed game with a set amount of content. Chances are it will fall somewhere in the middle, but that's still worth a try IMO.

 

Lacedaemonius

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hanselthecaretaker said:
Lacedaemonius said:
What you do in Minecraft is up to you, but you DO things, change your environment, build things. In NMS you don't appear to have anything like that degree of control over your environment.

massive tl;dr
I never thought I'd see the Gish Gallop from someone defending a game, but wow, there it is!

Zhukov said:
Maphysto said:
Can we just make a template for these "Look at me, I don't like No Man's Sky" threads?

"Hey, guys, you know No Man's Sky? Well, I know you may think it looks good, but it is, in fact, BAD! It doesn't live up to any of the arbitrary hype, such as all the imaginary features we projected onto it but were never promised or even hinted at by the developers! And while you may think it looks like a fun romp of space exploration, you'd be wrong! You're not actually allowed to like things that are popular or widely covered; instead, you have to smugly nitpick it so that everyone knows you're one of the "cool guys!"

There. Now we never have to have another of these threads again.
Good idea.

While we're at the template workshop can we make a template for people getting sore about someone criticizing or raising concerns about a popular or anticipated game?

"Hey, see that guy who said something that I don't like about a game that I do like? See how he gave some reasons for why he said what he did? Well, I'm going to completely ignore those reasons and furiously tilt at these windmills over here by accusing him of things he never said and suggest that his opinions are not sincere and merely an attempt to look cool by being contrarian!"

There, now I never have to read another one of these posts again.
As long as the internet is full of young people, people with poor social skills, and clinical cases... that won't happen.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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Lacedaemonius said:
hanselthecaretaker said:
Lacedaemonius said:
What you do in Minecraft is up to you, but you DO things, change your environment, build things. In NMS you don't appear to have anything like that degree of control over your environment.

massive tl;dr
I never thought I'd see the Gish Gallop from someone defending a game, but wow, there it is!
Well, it kinda depends on each person's definition of "doing something". Clearly it sounds like there is plenty to do in NMS, but if none of it fits someone's preconceived definition, it's much easier to chalk it up as GG.

Fair enough!
 

IamLEAM1983

Neloth's got swag.
Aug 22, 2011
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I don't mean to be a Negative Nancy, but why is it that so many of you seem focused on the idea of having concrete goals or objectives? If you've played Minecraft, don't you remember starting with absolutely nothing and needing to improvise? If you've worked on custom D&D campaigns, don't you remember having to design your own fun?

I think it's pretty clear that the only set and concrete goal in No Man's Sky is to reach the center of the galaxy. To what end and by what means, though? That's where exploration comes in. If you progress with this specific goal in mind, then you won't feel like you're horsing around in some ass-end corner of the galaxy's smallest spiral arm for no good reason.

Make up your own plot, for starters. Are you a marooned explorer who was pushed to the edges of known space and who needs to head back to the core worlds? Are you a mercenary who's only out to make Units? Are you a cartographer who's actually looking for the most remote parts of the galaxy? Are you a damnable space pirate whose every moment is spent running away from the Sentinels while finding ways to make a quick buck?

Remember Skyrim, for instance. Ignoring the questlines, you needed to make up your own reason for being in Tamriel's northernmost province while political tensions are high. If you played New Vegas, you had to make up most of the Courier's past by your lonesome, as well.

A little imagination goes a long way, honestly. If games aren't much more than checklists you feel you must feel compelled to check off and not much else, then it's my humble opinion that you have the wrong approach towards the medium.
 

deadish

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Dec 4, 2011
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Kibeth41 said:
People seemingly keep ignoring the fact that this is an indie studio who tried promising a game that they claim to have a world bigger than those found in extremely high budget AAA games. I honestly don't get how people fall for that level of empty garbage hype talk.
Technically, it is bigger ...
 

deadish

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Kibeth41 said:
deadish said:
Kibeth41 said:
People seemingly keep ignoring the fact that this is an indie studio who tried promising a game that they claim to have a world bigger than those found in extremely high budget AAA games. I honestly don't get how people fall for that level of empty garbage hype talk.
Technically, it is bigger ...
So are Minecraft, Spore, Starbound etc?
Minecraft ... probably ... there are map size limits if I'm right where if you go above it things start getting weird.
Don't know about Spore.
Starbound is 2D no?

No Man's Sky pretty much gives you an entire galaxy (or universe even; don't know, never kept up with the press releases).
 

deadish

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Kibeth41 said:
deadish said:
Minecraft ... probably ... there are map size limits if I'm right where if you go above it things start getting weird.
Don't know about Spore.
Starbound is 2D no?

No Man's Sky pretty much gives you an entire galaxy (or universe even; don't know, never kept up with the press releases).
I have no idea what you're refuting. All of my examples are correctly 'technically bigger than AAA titles'.

And Minecraft only has map limits on consoles.
I'm not refuting anything. Just saying, Minecraft probably is bigger map size wise than most AAA games - and yes there is a limit even on PC due to the precision of the coordinates. That I don't know about Spore. That Starbound isn't really comparable since it's a 2D game.
 

deadish

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Kibeth41 said:
deadish said:
I'm not refuting anything. Just saying, Minecraft probably is bigger map size wise than most AAA games - and yes there is a limit even on PC due to the precision of the coordinates. That I don't know about Spore. That Starbound isn't really comparable since it's a 2D game.
The same case with No Mans Sky. It's bigger in no other aspect.
Don't think the developers were talking about anything but map size ...
 

Lacedaemonius

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hanselthecaretaker said:
Lacedaemonius said:
hanselthecaretaker said:
Lacedaemonius said:
What you do in Minecraft is up to you, but you DO things, change your environment, build things. In NMS you don't appear to have anything like that degree of control over your environment.

massive tl;dr
I never thought I'd see the Gish Gallop from someone defending a game, but wow, there it is!
Well, it kinda depends on each person's definition of "doing something". Clearly it sounds like there is plenty to do in NMS, but if none of it fits someone's preconceived definition, it's much easier to chalk it up as GG.

Fair enough!
Yeah right, just like Bill Clinton was a virgin depending on your definition of the word "is".
 

Ender910_v1legacy

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Joccaren said:
Ok, on the topic of NMS doing something new; No, it doesn't. In a technical sense it may. The systems underlying it may be different to the systems we've seen before. In a gameplay or experience sense? Hah.

As others have pointed out, look at Spore;
Procedurally generated planets? Check
Procedurally generated wildlife? Check [Connect to internet if you don't like the initial set of assembled assets, and it acts exactly the same way].
Procedurally generated galaxy? Check
Procedurally generated empires? Check
Goal is to get to the center of the galaxy? Check
Basically shit all to do outside that? Check

Also have to laugh when "Procedurally generated grass" is considered something awesome. Literally every game that has grass [outside pokemon and other 2D titles], has that grass procedurally generated. What, you think the devs have a guy whose job it is to hand place 20,000,000,000 blades of grass? Hah, no. Its proc-genned so they don't have to bother. Same with most landscapes in modern games TBH.

And no, saying it has shit all to do isn't at all to do with quests and objectives and story and such. That's bullshit and the people saying it know it. I could write up a 'game' right now that was just random coloured blocks in a black void for infinity, and you had the ability to move, and I reckon these same guys defending NMS wouldn't defend it as having plenty to do, just not in the normal sense because there's not objectives and such, you're just closed minded. Nope, they'd complain there's nothing to do because there are no mechanics there to support anything. Oh but I could procedurally generate an infinite variety of blocks and colours and sounds coming out of the blocks and it'd be like something you'd never seen or experienced before! Except it wouldn't. It'd be something you've seen countless times, and isn't that creative.

The same applies to NMS though. Sure, its blocks are a little prettier, but as far as I've seen, Spore had more mechanics behind it that you could play around with and do things with than NMS does. Terraforming, Biosphere shaping and altering, space fights, land exploration [Even Vanilla there was a hologram module for you to do this], crop circles you could terrorise beings with. Planet busters, cities to capture, trade to perform, colonies to establish, empires to build, species to modify... Ect.

"There's nothing to do" isn't a complaint about no objectives. I'd wager most people have more fun NOT doing the objectives and doing the hundred other things that can be done with a game's mechanics than just mindlessly following objectives. Its a complaint about the low level variety and polish of the mechanics that allow you to interact with the world. Minecraft had TONS to do, and that was ignoring its achievement system. It had no objectives, no story, none of that shit. People didn't complain there was nothing to do though, because there were a lot of in depth mechanics to master. Monster hunting evolved into monster farming. Gathering various resources took a lot of know how eventually. Crafting rare items was a lot of work. Building great structures took huge amounts of coordination and preparation. Brewing food, learning Redstone, role playing with friends... There was a ton of stuff to do.


The big complaint with NMS that many people have is that it is a game about Procedural Generation, and we've seen that before. Its not a game USING procedural generation, its a game based almost entirely around procedural generation, and AI ain't at the level where it'll just create a compelling game yet.

You could create a sandbox game world based on procedural generation and exploration - but then you'd have Minecraft, or Starbound, or Terraria or... You could use procedural generation to do the bulky but mundane work of creating terrain for your awesome story - like Witcher, Skyrim, and most other large games these days. You can use procedural generation to alter the stats and look of loot to add more excitement to your dungeon crawl - like Diablo or Borderlands. You can't just put procedural generation there, and program in a camera, and call it this amazing new game that has so much to do you guys are all just close minded and don't get it. Yeah, No Man's Sky goes a bit further than that - that just proves the point that you can't though. NMS is too close to that for many people. There aren't enough mechanics we've been introduced to for people to be able to actually do anything in the game. And I mean hell, if you like just looking at paintings all day, more power to you, but a lot of people actually like the part of games where you interact with the media, rather than sit back and watch something someone else has done for you. In NMS, the features related to that seem barebones at present, more like an afterthought than the focus of the game like they should be.

Want there to be more to do? Create complex systems. Systems the player can manipulate to have an impact in the game world, and have the impact they can have be near infinite in variety thanks to the complexity in the system. For Minecraft, this was the building blocks and being able to create things, as well as redstone. You had a near infinite number of things you could do with those two systems, and amazing things you could achieve. You weren't given a goal, yet people recreated the entire starship Enterprise at almost life scale, or created a computer that played a primitive version of Minecraft, in Minecraft. And that engaged people and kept them playing. It doesn't have to be creation based either In BF3 one of the fun things a lot of people used to do was jump on MAVs to try and get into impossible places, or use C4 for evasive manoeuvres on things like tanks, or to land vehicles falling down a cliff safely. Sure, sometimes these things had a practical benefit. Others, they were just fun things to mess around with and do for laughs, yet the variety of circumstances you could use these two tools in, and the unpredictable and varied results they could have, resulted in fun for some people outside the objectives.

Without creating content like stories and that though, or having player interaction, you need to have systems for the player to discover and master, that have effects in the game. FPS in NMS could do that, as could trade, or platforming, or dogfighting, or any other mechanic. But they're not developed enough to really engage people. That's what people talk about when they say there's nothing to do, and why for many NMS seems quite disappointing. ANYONE can make a procedurally genrated world. People have proc genned entire interactive cities before and had a camera they can fly through and look at stuff with. That doesn't make it a fun game. Its what you can do that determines that for most people, and not even talking about goals or objectives, there isn't a lot of depth or complexity to what little you can do. And that's just unappealing to many.

NMS isn't some amazingly revolutionary never before seen type of game. That's the hype train talking. Its your classic proc genned sandbox, with potentially some more impressive proc gen under the hood, but lacking in interactivity seemingly moreso than even other titles in the genre, which is offputting to many because of the lack of real interactivity with the world.
Aye, this is pretty spot on with what I was wanting to say, and much more effectively worded than I could.

PGC (procedurally generated content) really isn't gameplay in of itself. It's a way of adding dynamic content, variety, and sometimes (when done in careful doses) immersion to a game's environment, but it doesn't really offer anything meaningful on its own to the actual gameplay design.

That's why I like to bring up 7 Days to Die as an ideal example for how to approach designing a game with survival/sandbox elements. 7 Days to Die was designed with a solid and concise gameplay model from the start, with an emphasis on zombie hordes, AI, combat, and a voxel based system specifically for designing structures and defenses. And from there, other elements were included, designed to fit into that model (procedural worldgen, crafting, loot tables, etc.). It's an approach that just simply works, almost flawlessly.

And for a space exploration game, I feel like it's especially detrimental because of just how easy it is to make a sci-fi setting feel empty because of the vast and emptiness that is, well, space. And then with how PGC can make things particularly shallow if you depend way too much on it... yeah. Compared to a more hand-crafted approach with a game like Freelancer, I just don't see any real potential for No Man Sky, even with mods and such tacked on.
 

weirdee

Swamp Weather Balloon Gas
Apr 11, 2011
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Well, if you're looking for something to do, Starbound officially releases next week, and despite all of the delays and scheduling fuckups, they actually delivered all of the content that was promised in the Kickstarter, so it's one outta two there.

Dalisclock said:
Doesn't starbound already do this(other then the space dogfights) right now? And have a lot of the same problem of lots to explore and little to do(I mean, other then find upgrades and build a house if you're so inclined)?
That was back in the midbeta phase. A more annoying version of Terraria, yes. But if you had paid attention to it long after all the people who bought into early access got annoyed at the moves and the staff hiring (and I don't blame those folks, it was dumb), you would have seen them implementing all of the noncombat based content and the underwater cities and the actual trading hubs with things to buy besides fruit and the pets and the farming and quests and player made settlements with custom built npcs and crew members and vehicles etc.

Oh, and I guess they added a lot of stuff to the combat things also.
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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IamLEAM1983 said:
I don't mean to be a Negative Nancy, but why is it that so many of you seem focused on the idea of having concrete goals or objectives? If you've played Minecraft, don't you remember starting with absolutely nothing and needing to improvise? If you've worked on custom D&D campaigns, don't you remember having to design your own fun?

I think it's pretty clear that the only set and concrete goal in No Man's Sky is to reach the center of the galaxy. To what end and by what means, though? That's where exploration comes in. If you progress with this specific goal in mind, then you won't feel like you're horsing around in some ass-end corner of the galaxy's smallest spiral arm for no good reason.

Make up your own plot, for starters. Are you a marooned explorer who was pushed to the edges of known space and who needs to head back to the core worlds? Are you a mercenary who's only out to make Units? Are you a cartographer who's actually looking for the most remote parts of the galaxy? Are you a damnable space pirate whose every moment is spent running away from the Sentinels while finding ways to make a quick buck?

Remember Skyrim, for instance. Ignoring the questlines, you needed to make up your own reason for being in Tamriel's northernmost province while political tensions are high. If you played New Vegas, you had to make up most of the Courier's past by your lonesome, as well.

A little imagination goes a long way, honestly. If games aren't much more than checklists you feel you must feel compelled to check off and not much else, then it's my humble opinion that you have the wrong approach towards the medium.
I'm not going to type it out again, just link you to the last time I typed it out, but it has NOTHING to do with objectives. People don't say there's nothing to do because there's not enough objectives, but because the mechanics aren't in depth enough to add much variety to the way you interact with the world. Minecraft and Skyrim are perfect examples, as those games had tons to do [Arguably Skyrim, its mechanics were shallow as fuck which resulted in a lot of people getting very bored with it relatively quickly], while NMS has seemingly not much to do. It needs more mechanical depth that adds variety to its play, and allows the player to properly interact with the world. Anyway, my two posts on this issue as a whole;
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.940331-No-Mans-Sky-is-starting-to-look-a-bit-rubbish?page=2#23719248
On why people say there's nothing to do, and
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.940331-No-Mans-Sky-is-starting-to-look-a-bit-rubbish?page=3#23720280
On the small actual target market for the game [Only first half, second is a rebuttal to the suggestion that some list that listed the lowest depth and simplest mechanics possible gave the game 'plenty to do'].
 

IamLEAM1983

Neloth's got swag.
Aug 22, 2011
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Joccaren said:
Having read through both posts in deeper depth - I'll admit to glancing across long threads like this one - all I can really say is these are all valid points, but that none of them really hamper my moderate anticipation for the game.

I've always known I was one of these Explorer types Bartle spoke of. I'll fire Skyrim up if only for the purdy visuals and needed three years to even finish the main quest. Give me a sense of place and interesting landmarks, and I'm sold. Considering, it's no big surprise that Minecraft swallowed me up for years on end.

I'm lucid enough to admit that the game's mechanics are shallow, but I'm not exactly looking for something out of the Wing Commander or X series. I'm not looking for Elite: Dangerous, or even some hypothetical "Skyrim in Space". Something light on mechanics but big on scale appeals to me on a personal level - and no, I'm not about to harp on about anyone who disagrees being wrong. If NMS or any other game comes across as shallow to you, then you shouldn't feel forced to play it, much less to develop an opinion on it.

If I'm being humble and realistic, maybe I did drink the Hello Games Kool-Aid and maybe I do weigh too much on the satisfaction the ease of use the scale and simple mechanics seem to want to create. Maybe I'll snoop around one or two planets, get enough materials to jump to the next spiral arm, realize I need to do it all over again five or six times to get enough funds or parts for upgrades, and then call it a day. I could very well play this only three to four hours and even end up regretting my purchase.

All I know is that as of now, I'm still willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. I still fire up Spore from time to time for the sake of futzing around with a bevy of mods, so I'm a little familiar with empty spaces populated by scraps of gameplay. Spore's not a game you lose hours or days to - at least not to me - it's a game you mess with for a few minutes per day once you reach the Space Stage. Honestly, that's enough for me.

It might be that I'll power through No Man's Sky, it could be that I'll only partially touch it and then forget I ever bought it - or it could be the busywork kills the whimsy for me; that notion of travelling across lightyears in moments by my lonesome that's still so appealing to me, as I'm writing this.

As to what happens, though, I need to give the game a chance to find out.
 

Einspanner

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Lacedaemonius said:
hanselthecaretaker said:
Lacedaemonius said:
hanselthecaretaker said:
Lacedaemonius said:
What you do in Minecraft is up to you, but you DO things, change your environment, build things. In NMS you don't appear to have anything like that degree of control over your environment.

massive tl;dr
I never thought I'd see the Gish Gallop from someone defending a game, but wow, there it is!
Well, it kinda depends on each person's definition of "doing something". Clearly it sounds like there is plenty to do in NMS, but if none of it fits someone's preconceived definition, it's much easier to chalk it up as GG.

Fair enough!
Yeah right, just like Bill Clinton was a virgin depending on your definition of the word "is".
Or "Sex". Or "Blowjob". Or "Cumstained dress".
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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IamLEAM1983 said:
Yeah, that's totally cool too. Different people like what different people like, and if its the sort of game you're likely to enjoy, more power to you.

The prevailing attitude in the thread from those who like the game though, and in the post I responded to, is that those who don't like the game are mindless drones who want to just follow objectives, rather than acknowledging that the game is rather lacking in mechanical depth. While a kinda sad side effect of just internet culture, I still like to try and at least defend views that are misunderstood when it happens.

There isn't a right or wrong in liking the game, and if you're still excited for it that's great - but there are those it simply doesn't appeal to, which has largely been met by large level of "You're mindless dudebros" in response. I guess it is the internet, but still better to try for discussion IMO.