No-one enjoys this nonsense, so stop doing it.

[ganpondorodf]

I'm playing through Twilight Princess on Wii for the first time (I've already completed it 2 or 3 times on Gamecube... HOLY HELL EVERYTHING IS BACKWARDS) and I'm getting ready to go to the third dungeon; the water one. Yet first I have to spend half an hour or so killing light insects. Does anyone actually find this sorta thing *fun*? It's not even a case of familiarity breeding contempt; I clearly remember hating this process the first time I played through the game. So my question is "why do developers put things in games that are nothing more than chores?". I'm all up for challenges, they give a sense of accomplishment. But this sort of thing isn't even difficult, it's just annoying. Stealth sections are equally terrible.

Discuss the inclusion of sections in games which could never be considered enjoyable.

 

[GloatingSwine]

It takes you that long to find the light insects?

It should be a ten minute job, tops.

Really, I never had any problem with that section of Twilight Princess, it's just a collect-a-thon, and I like those.

 

[ganpondorodf]

Well, I can't remember exactly how long it takes (I've switched the game off now). I just know that I hate the Tears of Light bits in TP.

 

[searanox]

I think this is one of those things that sounded better on paper and from a story perspective than it actually turned out in gameplay. It becomes very quick and easy by the third time around once you realise that everything is marked on your map. I doubt it's a gameplay-lengthening exercise, however, because Zelda games are already quite long.

However, I'm not sure about your stealth complaint. The Wind Waker actually did pretty well with it, and considering the fact that Zelda can pull off stealth gameplay (or any other type, for that matter) in one small section, at least half as well as a full-fledged game in that genre, is pretty impressive.

I do know what you're saying, though, and yes, it happens. Sometimes experimentation doesn't work, and sometimes that thing that sounded cool in the design document feels like too much of a departure from the main game, but you've already spent so much time and effort working on it that you don't want to remove it. You have to know, in development, when it's time to remove something that isn't working. The problem is knowing when to give up, because too soon and you potentially miss a great feature, too late and you've spent too much time, money, and effort on something for ultimately no return and nothing satisfactory to replace it with. Good design early on is key so that when you have to make the cuts, you can make them intelligently with minimum loss as the game begins to come together.

 

[Signa]

I found the tears sections a great way to get introduced to the maps before I was really allowed to explore them. I liked it because once I came back again as a human I knew the layout a little better.


Sure, it wasn't necessary, but I didn't find it to be much of a chore. Collecting Poes, THATS a chore.

 

[ganpondorodf]

To be fair, the stealth bit in Wind Waker is quite good... Because they do it once and then drop it. Some games extend those instant-fail bits out for ages and end up completely taking away from the fun of the whole thing.

Not to mention the animation on WW's moblins... I swear that the graphics in that game, for those who like them, will never age.

 

[Monkfish Acc.]

Every single monotonous moment of gameplay in any game is there to extend said gameplay.
EDIT: Damn, ninja'd, and said in a better way, too.

 

[Wargamer]

I tend to agree with Signa; on my first time through (playing the Gamecube version, since that is the "real" Twilight Princess), it was handy to get a feel for the place as the fast-moving Wolf, and when I reverted to Human I had a good idea where I had to go next.

 

[GloatingSwine]

There is a reason they do that. Lengthening gameplay without having to add more content.

Except, of course, the collect-a-thons in Twilight Princess involve quite a lot of unique content, new monsters in areas, the fact that they take place in a different graphical environment to the main gameworld (the Twilight), form unique puzzles because you're stuck in wolf mode and don't have the normal movelist available and have to figure out how to get to things, etc.

It becomes very quick and easy by the third time around once you realise that everything is marked on your map.

You mean "in the first ten seconds when you realise everything is marked on your map", and the challenge is actually getting there not finding it?

 

[bobraj]

As a Yatzhee acolyte before I knew who he was, I am a firm believer in videogames as entertainment and so I fully understand your frustration.

What is missing from these chores is a sense of random weirdness. What if, instead of killing fireflies to gain entrance to the water level, you have a gatekeeper who will only let you pass if you can sing a karoake rendition of I Will Survive or the Hockey Monkey song (YouTube it, you can thank me later).

It would certainly be a bit more entertaining and could extend gameplay indefinitely depending on how tone deaf you are.

 

[searanox]

You mean "in the first ten seconds when you realise everything is marked on your map", and the challenge is actually getting there not finding it?

I actually have come across people who did not realise they were marked on your map, and spent ages wandering around trying to find everything. I didn't realise they were marked until about halfway through the first collect-a-thon and found myself running back across the game world to get the last one.

You also can't discount the fact that creating the Twilight World requires very little new content. Aside from a blur shader, some new music, and a few new enemy models, it's actually identical to the main game world. Compared to creating brand-new content from scratch, the work-load is still quite small. It's a gameplay-lengthening and work-reducing formula that has been going on for years (tons of adventure-style games have a "dual worlds" sort of hook to them, after all), but each time those dual worlds get a little bit more similar to each other, until there is very little actually separating them, because it takes more time and effort to create a game in this day and age than ever before, and it becomes less about "interesting gameplay hook" and more about "reducing total expenses".

As a Yatzhee acolyte before I knew who he was, I am a firm believer in videogames as entertainment and so I fully understand your frustration.

What is missing from these chores is a sense of random weirdness. What if, instead of killing fireflies to gain entrance to the water level, you have a gatekeeper who will only let you pass if you can sing a karoake rendition of I Will Survive or the Hockey Monkey song (YouTube it, you can thank me later).

It would certainly be a bit more entertaining and could extend gameplay indefinitely depending on how tone deaf you are.

Wow, you are... hilarious. And witty. Very much so. Really, keep it up, I think I tasted some bile there.