No Right Answer: Best Animation Style Ever

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Negatempest

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Really Internets? You recommended Trigun and Cowboy Bebob to Dan? *Face Palm* There is nothing wrong with those anime in terms of story, characters and "progression". BUT Cowboy Bebob and Trigun are both hard to follow unless you already loved anime.

Dan is looking for interesting anime that does not follow closely to the anime cliche.

I recommend 2 first.

Golden Boy and Great Teacher Onizuka (aka GTO) in English Sub.

These are pretty early anime that were dubbed poorly when they reached US soil like speed racer. Golden Boy is a per episode story like the Simpsons, but great stories. GTO is a great progression anime that gives you the idea of what to expect at 2 episodes.

"If" Dan got any interest in anime after those 2, THAN I would recommend Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. English is good, but English Subs are better. This is an anime with the Robot Trope, but those robots take back seat to the characters.

p.s. Can anyone else name anime that don't fall under the cliche of being long, conviluted, or difficult to get into unless you already love anime?
 

orangecharger

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So another spirited debate. Really like this show. Nice to see Dan again. What about a Kyle vs Dan showdown? Incidentally, was someone going to cosplay Fred Flintstone shortly after filming? :)What was going on with Chris' shirt(s)?
 

Alice Malice

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I'd also suggest the anime Gungrave, especially if you end up liking Trigun. It has less of the comedy as Trigun, but it's just as interesting and deep.
 

Avatar Roku

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Arif_Sohaib said:
I am surprized that no one mentioned Avatar The Last Airbender, the perfect blend of East and West in animation and much better version of the Harry Potter concept.
I was going to bring that up too (*points to avatar*). It's really a testament to why both styles of animation are valid, since it takes the best of both and combines them seamlessly into a whole that is better than the sum of its parts.
Negatempest said:
Really Internets? You recommended Trigun and Cowboy Bebob to Dan? *Face Palm* There is nothing wrong with those anime in terms of story, characters and "progression". BUT Cowboy Bebob and Trigun are both hard to follow unless you already loved anime.

Dan is looking for interesting anime that does not follow closely to the anime cliche.
I would argue that Cowboy Bebop is actually quite easy to follow. There is a big arc for the whole series (Spike's past, Vicious, etc), but most of it is really surprisingly episodic. For every episode not directly related to the over-arching plot, the only thing you need to know is that they're bounty hunters; for the episodes that ARE related to the main plot, they really aren't that hard to follow.

I would argue that Cowboy Bebop does fulfill that requirement. I see no reason it should not be used as an introductory anime.
 

Soviet Heavy

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Casual Shinji said:
Anime used to be good, you know, when it was actually well animated.

When we still had people like Katsuhiro Otomo, Koji Morimoto, and Yoshiaki Kawajiri. Seriously, what the fuck are these guys doing? Now Satoshi Kon is dead and Hayao Miyazaki is getting too old to work the way he used to.

But in all honesty, both Western and Japanese (traditional) animation suck now thanks to the digital age.
I think the major problem is visual homogenization, and a lack of depth. This goes for both western and eastern animation.

Take a look at 80's and 90's anime. Look at the detailing. Sure, stuff like Berserk animated like a lethargic snail, but the detailing in the backgrounds was immense. Stuff like that just isn't made anymore.

Compare to modern anime, and you see the inverse. Everything almost feels too flat, with two tone cell shading making up the majority of visual styles.

Same goes for western. Again, Batman TAS had a visual depth, whereas shows like Adventure Time or MLP are flat flat flat.
 

Vigormortis

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Daystar Clarion said:
GamemasterAnthony said:
Suggestion: Ghost in the Shell

Both of the movies AND the "Stand Alone Complex" series.

This MAY make you change your mind about anime, Dan.
I second this.

Ghost in the Shell has very few of the tropes that are in conventional anime.

It's still has robots, but hey, it's the future, and the'ye not as ridiculous as the crap from Gundam.
True. I personally love the movies and the shows. It's one of the few 'modern' animes I can stand to watch. (For the record, I used to love anime. now I prefer western animation. primarily due to Pixar.(yes it counts))

However, Ghost in the Shell still has a fair bit of the usual anime tropes. The 'admittedly-not-quite-so-wacky' AI robots, complete with God-awful high-pitched womens voices acting goofy and child-like. The scantly clad, very large breasted women with big-hips and tiny waists. Lengthy scenes involving the characters literally sitting around, not moving, talking about something for long stretches, usually speaking in contemplative metaphors. Etc, etc.

Still, it's FAR less than most and, despite the blatant presence of some, it's still one of the better written anime stories out there. It often makes me think the writers are avid fans of Asimov.
 

Wolcik

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Some people probably mention that animation style is something completely different than what was discussed and if we want to discuss that we would need to go back before the animation, and back to beginnings of both European and Japanese visual art, and it's a bigger journey.

Lots of people will argue about the development and writing and other stuff, but since it's all about cultural differences I'd say that it depends on personal taste and view of beauty and such.

The best way to do that episode was to pin point the best and the worst, I guess and Dan had it covered.
 

Casual Shinji

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Soviet Heavy said:
Casual Shinji said:
Anime used to be good, you know, when it was actually well animated.

When we still had people like Katsuhiro Otomo, Koji Morimoto, and Yoshiaki Kawajiri. Seriously, what the fuck are these guys doing? Now Satoshi Kon is dead and Hayao Miyazaki is getting too old to work the way he used to.

But in all honesty, both Western and Japanese (traditional) animation suck now thanks to the digital age.
I think the major problem is visual homogenization, and a lack of depth. This goes for both western and eastern animation.

Take a look at 80's and 90's anime. Look at the detailing. Sure, stuff like Berserk animated like a lethargic snail, but the detailing in the backgrounds was immense. Stuff like that just isn't made anymore.

Compare to modern anime, and you see the inverse. Everything almost feels too flat, with two tone cell shading making up the majority of visual styles.

Same goes for western. Again, Batman TAS had a visual depth, whereas shows like Adventure Time or MLP are flat flat flat.
I've never seen the new MLP, but from what I have seen it's clearly flash animated, so no wonder it looks flat as hell.

As for the lack of depth of even current hand drawn animation, it might also have to do with the fact that it's no longer drawn on cells. Those old cartoons had a certain grit to them because they were all hand painted cells. Now, because everything is done digitally it feels way too clean and seems to lack texture.
This is why shows today with a very limited budget appear so flat and sterile as opposed to shows with similar budgets from 20 years ago.

To take your example of Berserk; I saw the first 10 minutes of the new Berserk movie and was appalled by how clean, sterile, and lifeless it looked thanks to all the digimation. I was never a fan of the original anime series, but at least that breathed some of the atmosphere of a gothic dark fantasy, not a cutscene from Valkyria Chronicles.
 

David VanDusen

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I don't know if I'll really add more to this than has already been said, but seeing as I'm an American who was raised on Western Animation and now support Eastern Animation more, I feel as if I have something to say on this.

I was happy to see two things listed previously in this thread, Perfect Blue and Ghost in the Shell. While I'm sure most people are at least fundamentally aware of Ghost, it's up in the air how many people know anything about Perfect Blue. (If you're not, please check it out on Wikipedia)

The main problem to start with this debate is that you're in short comparing a deeper cultural divide than you'd think. First, we have to acknowledge that the level of target for Western Animation is vastly different due to greater cultural handicaps than that of Japan. When Princess Mononoke was being released in the States, there was a bit of controversy as to whether or not it was proper for Disney to hold the rights to it due to the violence level in the movie. This is part of the base cultural divide between the East and the West. While there is some "innocence" to children in Asia, the driving force of Eastern Animation comes from Japan where the "sheltering" of children isn't as deep as it is here in the States at least.

What this really drives at is why Western Animation as a whole seems to constantly yield similar titles. As commented in the video, Disney is primarily known for Princess movies. Even looking back on my childhood, the only movies I felt really stood out or captured my imagination weren't from Disney because I was a boy. Instead, I remember fondly things like An American Tale : Fievel Goes West, The Secret of Nimh, and Titan AE (though released in my teens.) At best, for relation to myself, Disney had The Sword in the Stone and television shows such as Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers, Tail Spin, or Gummy Bears. But looking into my teens, Western Animation seemingly lost all appeal or connection to me.

Instead, it was at this point where Eastern Animation took up the mantel starting with a friend letting me borrow Akira and Ninja Scroll. Soon afterward I got hooked on the epic feel of the space soap which was Gundam 0079 and small titles like Pet Shop of Horrors or those now obscure US Manga and Urban Vision title releases such as Psycho Diver or Twilight of the Dark Masters.

Heck, I remember Sputnik7.com when they had their license to stream US Manga titles like Wings of the Royal Space Force: The Wings of Honnêamise or Mad Bull 34.

Now, I know this is me sort of droning on about my experiences, but I'm trying to establish a timeline. For most people, I assume, the connection to a certain animation style seemingly comes from the disconnection of another, and I believe that is why this topic is inherently flawed from the begging. It is reasonable to say that with what we have widely available, Western Animation is probably better for a domestic market in the West currently for the ages of 3-10 years of age. However, even at the ages of 5-8 you enter a world of Pokemon, Yugioh, Digimon, and a slew of others which have equal appeal to children. But when it comes to the teen market upwards to any adult level, Easter Animation meets what the West by and large refuses to try.

Now, most of the void in the market comes from the still long standing opinion that Animation is for children, with the exception of children movies laced with humor only the parents are supposed to understand thus allowing them to not want to drink bleach by having to sit through them with their children. It's taken over 60 years for Comic books to finally start getting real credit as a legitimate art form in more ways than one, and I assume it will still be years off for the West to fully acknowledge the potential of Animation as a true entertainment medium.

Going back to the beginning, Perfect Blue is a bold example of this line of thinking and recognition that the West has yet to fully adopt. Blue is a title which explores vanity, obsession, sexual expression, rape, murder, the effects of modern media and entertainment, and our inner psychological flaws we each do well to keep hidden from others. Now, it doesn't overly drown you in all of theses, but there is enough there to get you thinking and all done on a fair budget to bring a very powerful book to life.

I guess in the end, it isn't so much that I choose Eastern Animation to be the better of Western; It is that I choose the artistic freedoms and acceptance of the East over the West as a good fit for my personal diversity of taste when it comes to entertainment.
 

David VanDusen

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JoaoJatoba said:
Why people suggest old animes? Beebop? Trigun? All from the last millennium. Try Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood (way better than the first release), Another (horror story), GANTZ, Tokyo Magnitude 8.0. There is sooooo much more...

Anime are more like movies than cartoon, because you have tons of "american pie" comedies, but also deeper ones like Inception. The thing is you must know which is which, and that's the hard part. The themes in eastern animations are more restricted it seems (comedy, basically).

The industry of anime in japan is not at all like cartoon industry in the US. There, they are more like Hollywood..

And newbies, stay away from the series with 500 episodes. The pace is so slow. Try smaller anime, with 13 or 26 episodes.
While I could say there is a "good" reason why they do it, it would all be opinion and conjecture.

In reality, the more likely is that Cowboy Bebop stands as one of the more heavily rated anime world wide. It is also really easy to compare it to something more familiar in the west. "Hey, did you like Firefly? Then you'll probably really enjoy this." This line of suggestion has actually worked every time for me when suggesting Bebop to someone as an intro.

You have to step back and look at what you're trying to suggest and see if it really stacks up as being "good" (by the sense of overall appeal) or "good" by the sense of it hits things that only satisfy you. Frankly, I think that Gantz is a very awful title. I think Gantz gets hurt more when you actually learn anything about the creation of the show and how directions were made. I think the rape in first two Eps is a turn off for many people. Further more, I've known people who were on the fence with Anime and felt that Giant Armor with 10 year old boy voice was "dumb." (Direct quote)

Now I'm not saying that you or anyone else is wrong or bad for liking Gantz or not easily seeing the conflict with FMA, but I am trying to point out that there is a reason on the top 100's, many of the animes you see get voted above them are there for these reasons; they have a much more broad appeal.

As a parting notion, I'll give one last example. I love Bebop, Trigun, and Outlaw Star. My best friend loves Bebop, Trigun, and HATES Outlaw star.... why? Because Outlaw start has Aliens and it just rubbed him the wrong way in the context of things. It really is the little things man.
 

Nexxis

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I like some of anime's animation style, but I don't care for many of the stories much. At least the ones I've been exposed to. And I've had friends who sing their praises so much that I get annoyed by it.
I do like western style animation, except on the odd occasion when it tries to mimic anime. Sometimes it feels like some of anime's funny moments are forced in a feel "unnatural". However, I do like when it's done as a parody, since those can be funny.
 

Negatempest

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Avatar Roku said:
Arif_Sohaib said:
I am surprized that no one mentioned Avatar The Last Airbender, the perfect blend of East and West in animation and much better version of the Harry Potter concept.
I was going to bring that up too (*points to avatar*). It's really a testament to why both styles of animation are valid, since it takes the best of both and combines them seamlessly into a whole that is better than the sum of its parts.
Negatempest said:
Really Internets? You recommended Trigun and Cowboy Bebob to Dan? *Face Palm* There is nothing wrong with those anime in terms of story, characters and "progression". BUT Cowboy Bebob and Trigun are both hard to follow unless you already loved anime.

Dan is looking for interesting anime that does not follow closely to the anime cliche.
I would argue that Cowboy Bebop is actually quite easy to follow. There is a big arc for the whole series (Spike's past, Vicious, etc), but most of it is really surprisingly episodic. For every episode not directly related to the over-arching plot, the only thing you need to know is that they're bounty hunters; for the episodes that ARE related to the main plot, they really aren't that hard to follow.

I would argue that Cowboy Bebop does fulfill that requirement. I see no reason it should not be used as an introductory anime.
Watch the 1st episode of Cowboy Bebob again.

During the 1st few seconds of the 1st episode we see explosions, gunshots, and one of the main characters looking like he is about ready to do a self sacrifice move with no explanation on why he is doing this at all during the episode. Which you won't find out why until you watch other episodes that piece that beginning episode together. It also gets really dark at the end of episode 1. Which can get pretty surprising since it is actually unexpected to get as dark as it did. Good anime, REALLY good anime, but I would not say it is easy to follow unless you already like anime
 

Negatempest

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Nexxis said:
I like some of anime's animation style, but I don't care for many of the stories much. At least the ones I've been exposed to. And I've had friends who sing their praises so much that I get annoyed by it.
I do like western style animation, except on the odd occasion when it tries to mimic anime. Sometimes it feels like some of anime's funny moments are forced in a feel "unnatural". However, I do like when it's done as a parody, since those can be funny.
If you have some interest in anime, I could point you out what anime are actually worth watching for a beginner. Kinda curious more on what was recommended to you.

There are anime that are easy to follow if you already like anime.
Then there are anime that are easy to follow if you don't have a huge interest in anime. In terms of understanding what the Director/author was trying to do without feeling let down.
 

Avatar Roku

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Negatempest said:
Avatar Roku said:
Arif_Sohaib said:
I am surprized that no one mentioned Avatar The Last Airbender, the perfect blend of East and West in animation and much better version of the Harry Potter concept.
I was going to bring that up too (*points to avatar*). It's really a testament to why both styles of animation are valid, since it takes the best of both and combines them seamlessly into a whole that is better than the sum of its parts.
Negatempest said:
Really Internets? You recommended Trigun and Cowboy Bebob to Dan? *Face Palm* There is nothing wrong with those anime in terms of story, characters and "progression". BUT Cowboy Bebob and Trigun are both hard to follow unless you already loved anime.

Dan is looking for interesting anime that does not follow closely to the anime cliche.
I would argue that Cowboy Bebop is actually quite easy to follow. There is a big arc for the whole series (Spike's past, Vicious, etc), but most of it is really surprisingly episodic. For every episode not directly related to the over-arching plot, the only thing you need to know is that they're bounty hunters; for the episodes that ARE related to the main plot, they really aren't that hard to follow.

I would argue that Cowboy Bebop does fulfill that requirement. I see no reason it should not be used as an introductory anime.
Watch the 1st episode of Cowboy Bebob again.

During the 1st few seconds of the 1st episode we see explosions, gunshots, and one of the main characters looking like he is about ready to do a self sacrifice move with no explanation on why he is doing this at all during the episode. Which you won't find out why until you watch other episodes that piece that beginning episode together. It also gets really dark at the end of episode 1. Which can get pretty surprising since it is actually unexpected to get as dark as it did. Good anime, REALLY good anime, but I would not say it is easy to follow unless you already like anime
I don't think that the fact that they don't tell us everything immediately necessarily makes it that hard to follow. I mean, it's not as if only anime does that, I think that viewers like Dan would be able piece together the essentials and wait to figure out the rest.

The problems you cited are not problems typical of anime, and so I do not think this is inherently a bad intro anime. Hell, between it's episodic nature and focus on Jazz, this may be one of the most western animes I've seen (though there are also themes, such as the whole Yakuza thing, that are VERY Japanese, so it's an interesting specimen)
 

honestdiscussioner

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So Dan won because he's only seen parts of two anime's + Akira and got a bad impression, so that's worthy of points? Most of his arguments aren't really true, only subjectively true from the perspective of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

The very idea that he says "they're all the same" shows he really isn't fit to criticize anime. His stereotype doesn't even fit a large minority from what I've seen. Let's list the anime's I've seen and I'll put an X next to ones might in some vague sense fit his stereotype

Dragonball Z
Samurai Champloo
Ghost in the Shell
Full Metal Alchemist X
Naruto
Mushi-Shi
Sacred Blacksmith
Claymore X
Phantom: Requiem for the Phantom X

You could maybe argue Ghost in the Shell, but most of the bad guys lie outside the Government and the Government Section 9 agency is where the good-guys are. I think I'm being overly generous with Claymore and Phantom, as neither bad guy group is a government and the experiment itself isn't really the driving force of the plot.

Hell, Full Metal Alchemist only partly fulfills his stereotype.

I think American, or "Western" animation has some real promise. Things like Avatar are great evidence of this, but it has a lot of catching up to do. Animation has been central to the Japanese culture whereas for us, animation is only recently becoming acceptable for adults to consume. The stigma still exists that animation is simply "cartoons" and are for young kids.

I don't know about you, I wouldn't want my 6 year old seeing an entire town have their souls ripped out to form a blood red stone, or the Major blowing out some guys brain.
 

Lunar Templar

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shameduser said:
Kitsuna10060 said:
Looks like someone doesn't enjoy science fiction.

Also how can you stand Vampire Hunter D?
well i'm not a big fan of Sci-fi but there is some i enjoy.

rather easily? its not a bad movie (the first one) least it made sense the whole way through, unlike Akira -.- I'd have suggested Outlaw Star if i didn't think it was thing kinda 'normal anime tropes' he dislikes, not that he gave us any thing to go by anyway ...