Except neither of the two suggested in the video are the leads of their games. They're sidekicks to male protagonists. As for actual female video game leads, it would be a toss up with Jade from BG&E and Lara Croft.
No Right Answer: Strongest Female Video Game Lead Ever
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Having two supporting characters does not make them leads. A lead character is the main character, your protagonist, your hero, the one in which the story was mainly written for, your head actor the one that the story is fallowing you maybe Booker helping Elizabeth but Booker is the lead not Elizabeth even if she like Yuna should've have been the lead she isn't. Its like saying for Mass Effect that Garrus is the lead not Shepard he is a great supporting character not the lead. We are placed in Shepard's shoes for the whole game. Even if we were placed later on it supporting characters shoes 90 - 99% of the game we're playing as the protagonist so therefore its still his/her game not secondary character. Its the same as saying during Resident Evil Claire's story you switch to the child it doesn't mean its the little gir's story only that portion of the game belongs to the child its still majority Claire's story.
So for lead females in gaming that help female representation in games that are actually heros (picking from the females we have available to us.) My top 3 are Faith, Nillin, and Femshep those three women are doing alot for women starring in their own games fshep is tougher occasionally butch (aka suffering from man with breast syndrome) which is bad but most of the games she's powerful not empowered and that's great to illustrate Fshep is powerful, latest Lara was empowered by the end of the game which is bad.
Nillin and Faith are both realistic portrayals of women both are average women placed in unusual circumstances these for me are the ones I'd love to see more of it allows the whole game to be grounded and feel natural. I was really looking forward to Nillin being the first fem lead with a romance pre-written in yet due to back lash it was removed. Femshep would be my next game for when I'm on a power fantasy together these three women come close to my ideal hero which would be Ripley from Alien - Aliens 2 she is both powerful, not brawny, grounded, she has realistic goals and expectations, and rises to meet challenges, she doesn't gloat about her power and uses it as the situation warrants she's a complex character and the gaming world needs more complex women in leads so far I'm seeing several for supporting characters but its still rather rare for leads.
So for lead females in gaming that help female representation in games that are actually heros (picking from the females we have available to us.) My top 3 are Faith, Nillin, and Femshep those three women are doing alot for women starring in their own games fshep is tougher occasionally butch (aka suffering from man with breast syndrome) which is bad but most of the games she's powerful not empowered and that's great to illustrate Fshep is powerful, latest Lara was empowered by the end of the game which is bad.
Nillin and Faith are both realistic portrayals of women both are average women placed in unusual circumstances these for me are the ones I'd love to see more of it allows the whole game to be grounded and feel natural. I was really looking forward to Nillin being the first fem lead with a romance pre-written in yet due to back lash it was removed. Femshep would be my next game for when I'm on a power fantasy together these three women come close to my ideal hero which would be Ripley from Alien - Aliens 2 she is both powerful, not brawny, grounded, she has realistic goals and expectations, and rises to meet challenges, she doesn't gloat about her power and uses it as the situation warrants she's a complex character and the gaming world needs more complex women in leads so far I'm seeing several for supporting characters but its still rather rare for leads.
Tl;dr I think Elizabeth beats out Ellie
I have to agree with what a lot of people are saying, and say (that sounds grammatically off) that Sarah Kerrigan is the strongest female lead. With Samus being the primary contender I think that fact that she is primarily portrayed as this person is a suit of armour, which I think takes away from her characterization as a woman. With that out of the way, I'd like to take a peck at the Elizabeth versus Ellie thing.
My first impressions of Ellie was pretty good. But as a played the game, I realized that she had two influential points of character growth. The first being when Joel suffers a fatal injury that--if he was not the protagonist in anything other than a video game or movie--would have killed him. The second point is after she is nearly killed/eaten/raped by David. I thought they were going to do more with the latter, but instead they just skip a bunch of time and the issue disappears mostly except for that she seems a but more distant. Even with the former, when your back to playing as Joel, its like nothing has happened. And with what Herman said about her being naive at the beginning? I don't think that is true at all. Any human with the smallest shred of morality/who wasn't a sociopath would have some reaction to murder besides the occasional swear. After just the shortest amount of time with Joel, she starts stabbing people, and throwing bricks, and eventually shooting them. Her reaction from the start is not that of someone who has never seen death. And while I agree the whole "wanting to help" thing definitely makes her seem much stronger, her actually contribution to gameplay is negligible.
With Elizabeth, she starts as pretty much the most naive a person can be. She has had barely any human contact her entire life, and her knowledge of the world is based entirely on a selective collection of books. SO half of her world view is basically that of a fairy-tale. While I liked her reaction to Booker murdering those people when they were attacked while in-line, it would have been nice for her to push the issue more, and only after a few shootouts completely accept that "this is what has to happen". That being said, I really liked how whenever you did a skyhook execution she would act horrified and such. This actually caused me to not murder Slate on my first playthrough, as I felt sorry for her. Of course on my second playthrough I did kill slate, and I thought the following conversation was quite well done. Now the pinnacle o her murder tree is when she kills Fitzroy. Throughout the entirety of the game she never kills anyone, sans this point. Her reaction to this, while a little less than most people would have, is well done. Of course, having it as a video game forces her to get over it quickly (I find having her finish some harrowing dialogue to then say jovially "That little old lock" was a bit annoyingly contrasting) her brief period of just utter hock and seclusion fits well with someone who has spent the past few hours watching Booker murder people. I realize now that this pretty much all been about murder and reactions to murder, so I'll move onto something else. They way she happily interacts with the "Duke and Dimwit" stuff, and her happily trying cotton candy and spends most of her time directly after escaping her tower happily is a good contrast to the way she becomes dark and depressed(?) later in the game. If you read the loading screen text Booker has written that "She [Elizabeth] really has feelings for the folks in Shantytown...". Scenes like when Elizabeth brings in food for people, or talks about how she hopes the Vox Populi can improve life for the lower class show multiple dimensions of character. Considering how much I've already written, I'm going to skip a shit ton of stuff, and move to her faze of being basically a Tardis/the Bad Wolf from Doctor Who. She expresses this whole new side of compete enrapture, and happiness, and curiosity, and is just marveling at the universe. While similar to what she is like after her escape, this has the added amount of wisdom that seems to just pour out of her pores. Her exploration of her/Booker's past shows her going through these fazes of somber, and mournful, and compassionate. Now, as I'm exhausted from typing, I'll pretty much say that the point when she drowns Booker (which also caused me to cry, and listen to the soundtrack to that part for hours) pretty much maxes out the character evolution chart.
I feel as though every dialogue moment between Booker and Elizabeth advances their relationship, while most of the the evolving between Joel and Ellie happens off camera, while only the largest of changes happen on 'camera'. My biggest problem with both is how they get over what they've done/seen. While with ELizabeth, I think her reactions are too short, I suppose it's reasonable, as they can't have a heartwarming moment after every battle, and novel of dialogue every time Booker kills someone, it would have been nice to see more done with that. On Ellie's side, she just kind of enjoys/doesn't really care about killing people, and by the end of the game it's like the massive amounts of homicide her a Joel committed were the equivalent of going to the farthest away possible Tesco. Last of Us is a game about the development of the relationship between Joel and Ellie, and I found that on the point it fell short. The most interesting part of the game for me was Ish's story, which is apparently taken from a book "Earth Abides". I literally cared more about this guy we never saw the Joel and Ellie. Bioshock Infinite's main selling point is the plot. And yet as much as that is the overall theme, when you examine the individual pieces, you find Elizabeth is the focal point. More accurately her development as a person, and her relationship with Booker.
If it isn't clear, I'm very pro-B:I, and I think I have good grounds to be that way. I found that Elizabeth was a much more multidimensional character then Ellie. I think a good comparison to Ellie would be Samwise from Lord of the Rings. While in LotR the Frodo is a more central character, just how Booker is the lead in B:I, Samwise is a more interesting, more important character. Sure the comparison is not perfect--there are many dissimilarities--but I think the way Elizabeth evolves is similar to the way Sam does. Ellie is a great character. But she really isn't as real a person, and certainly wasn't a stonger female character. Unless you're talking about how much of a coldblooded she is than she would be. But if we are talking, strong female character in the sense that they are confident, unique, independent, and real, she misses some key points. Yes she is confident (maybe too confident), yes she is independant, and she is sort of unique (although she reminds me a bit of Laura Croft in how she is a bit skittish for about a second, and then is a murdering psychopath), and she is definitely independant. But she just doesn't feel real. Unless you are a psychopath, I think It's hard to connect with her. I just didn't feel bad for her. She felt like she didn't have a base in our sense of reality. I suppose in a post-apocalyptic sense she is normal, but by contemporary standards she isn't someone I'd want to know. Perhaps in a normal world she would have been a really cool person, she probably would be, but it's impossible to tell. SHe is still a child. I think that takes away from her a strong character. Just being a child devalues your independence, because as a child you are supposed to have limits set on what you can and cannot do. If you don't it is hard to develop into an adult. And she is not an adult. She's a a child, who will spend her whole life as a murderer without help. Basically she is unrelatable as a person, and seems more like a serial killer than a normal person. Yes she's unique, but she's also a murderer.
So basically, I think Elizabeth is a stronger character. She us unique, she is determined, she is independant, and she seems real. I actually know people who re similar to her. She feels more like a modern human being than a video character, has a developed personality, is confident in her position in the world, and is also a woman. I'm pretty sure that you have to be a woman to be a strong female character. If your not female, than you aren't exactly able to be a strong female character.
I have to agree with what a lot of people are saying, and say (that sounds grammatically off) that Sarah Kerrigan is the strongest female lead. With Samus being the primary contender I think that fact that she is primarily portrayed as this person is a suit of armour, which I think takes away from her characterization as a woman. With that out of the way, I'd like to take a peck at the Elizabeth versus Ellie thing.
My first impressions of Ellie was pretty good. But as a played the game, I realized that she had two influential points of character growth. The first being when Joel suffers a fatal injury that--if he was not the protagonist in anything other than a video game or movie--would have killed him. The second point is after she is nearly killed/eaten/raped by David. I thought they were going to do more with the latter, but instead they just skip a bunch of time and the issue disappears mostly except for that she seems a but more distant. Even with the former, when your back to playing as Joel, its like nothing has happened. And with what Herman said about her being naive at the beginning? I don't think that is true at all. Any human with the smallest shred of morality/who wasn't a sociopath would have some reaction to murder besides the occasional swear. After just the shortest amount of time with Joel, she starts stabbing people, and throwing bricks, and eventually shooting them. Her reaction from the start is not that of someone who has never seen death. And while I agree the whole "wanting to help" thing definitely makes her seem much stronger, her actually contribution to gameplay is negligible.
With Elizabeth, she starts as pretty much the most naive a person can be. She has had barely any human contact her entire life, and her knowledge of the world is based entirely on a selective collection of books. SO half of her world view is basically that of a fairy-tale. While I liked her reaction to Booker murdering those people when they were attacked while in-line, it would have been nice for her to push the issue more, and only after a few shootouts completely accept that "this is what has to happen". That being said, I really liked how whenever you did a skyhook execution she would act horrified and such. This actually caused me to not murder Slate on my first playthrough, as I felt sorry for her. Of course on my second playthrough I did kill slate, and I thought the following conversation was quite well done. Now the pinnacle o her murder tree is when she kills Fitzroy. Throughout the entirety of the game she never kills anyone, sans this point. Her reaction to this, while a little less than most people would have, is well done. Of course, having it as a video game forces her to get over it quickly (I find having her finish some harrowing dialogue to then say jovially "That little old lock" was a bit annoyingly contrasting) her brief period of just utter hock and seclusion fits well with someone who has spent the past few hours watching Booker murder people. I realize now that this pretty much all been about murder and reactions to murder, so I'll move onto something else. They way she happily interacts with the "Duke and Dimwit" stuff, and her happily trying cotton candy and spends most of her time directly after escaping her tower happily is a good contrast to the way she becomes dark and depressed(?) later in the game. If you read the loading screen text Booker has written that "She [Elizabeth] really has feelings for the folks in Shantytown...". Scenes like when Elizabeth brings in food for people, or talks about how she hopes the Vox Populi can improve life for the lower class show multiple dimensions of character. Considering how much I've already written, I'm going to skip a shit ton of stuff, and move to her faze of being basically a Tardis/the Bad Wolf from Doctor Who. She expresses this whole new side of compete enrapture, and happiness, and curiosity, and is just marveling at the universe. While similar to what she is like after her escape, this has the added amount of wisdom that seems to just pour out of her pores. Her exploration of her/Booker's past shows her going through these fazes of somber, and mournful, and compassionate. Now, as I'm exhausted from typing, I'll pretty much say that the point when she drowns Booker (which also caused me to cry, and listen to the soundtrack to that part for hours) pretty much maxes out the character evolution chart.
I feel as though every dialogue moment between Booker and Elizabeth advances their relationship, while most of the the evolving between Joel and Ellie happens off camera, while only the largest of changes happen on 'camera'. My biggest problem with both is how they get over what they've done/seen. While with ELizabeth, I think her reactions are too short, I suppose it's reasonable, as they can't have a heartwarming moment after every battle, and novel of dialogue every time Booker kills someone, it would have been nice to see more done with that. On Ellie's side, she just kind of enjoys/doesn't really care about killing people, and by the end of the game it's like the massive amounts of homicide her a Joel committed were the equivalent of going to the farthest away possible Tesco. Last of Us is a game about the development of the relationship between Joel and Ellie, and I found that on the point it fell short. The most interesting part of the game for me was Ish's story, which is apparently taken from a book "Earth Abides". I literally cared more about this guy we never saw the Joel and Ellie. Bioshock Infinite's main selling point is the plot. And yet as much as that is the overall theme, when you examine the individual pieces, you find Elizabeth is the focal point. More accurately her development as a person, and her relationship with Booker.
If it isn't clear, I'm very pro-B:I, and I think I have good grounds to be that way. I found that Elizabeth was a much more multidimensional character then Ellie. I think a good comparison to Ellie would be Samwise from Lord of the Rings. While in LotR the Frodo is a more central character, just how Booker is the lead in B:I, Samwise is a more interesting, more important character. Sure the comparison is not perfect--there are many dissimilarities--but I think the way Elizabeth evolves is similar to the way Sam does. Ellie is a great character. But she really isn't as real a person, and certainly wasn't a stonger female character. Unless you're talking about how much of a coldblooded she is than she would be. But if we are talking, strong female character in the sense that they are confident, unique, independent, and real, she misses some key points. Yes she is confident (maybe too confident), yes she is independant, and she is sort of unique (although she reminds me a bit of Laura Croft in how she is a bit skittish for about a second, and then is a murdering psychopath), and she is definitely independant. But she just doesn't feel real. Unless you are a psychopath, I think It's hard to connect with her. I just didn't feel bad for her. She felt like she didn't have a base in our sense of reality. I suppose in a post-apocalyptic sense she is normal, but by contemporary standards she isn't someone I'd want to know. Perhaps in a normal world she would have been a really cool person, she probably would be, but it's impossible to tell. SHe is still a child. I think that takes away from her a strong character. Just being a child devalues your independence, because as a child you are supposed to have limits set on what you can and cannot do. If you don't it is hard to develop into an adult. And she is not an adult. She's a a child, who will spend her whole life as a murderer without help. Basically she is unrelatable as a person, and seems more like a serial killer than a normal person. Yes she's unique, but she's also a murderer.
So basically, I think Elizabeth is a stronger character. She us unique, she is determined, she is independant, and she seems real. I actually know people who re similar to her. She feels more like a modern human being than a video character, has a developed personality, is confident in her position in the world, and is also a woman. I'm pretty sure that you have to be a woman to be a strong female character. If your not female, than you aren't exactly able to be a strong female character.
First off: It was the 8-bit era. You were lucky you could tell something was even humanoid then, let alone the gender. Still, it wasn't advertized (see: it didn't matter) that it was a woman. Just a bonus that this kick ass warrior tearing through an alien planet happened to be female.balladbird said:
Secondly: Define 'feminine.' The point is that they are a strong female lead, not a girly girl that happens to be the main character and hits things for a few hours of gameplay.
This sounds like the kind of thinking that happens in a game development meeting.
Dev #1: Ok, so the audience really wants more female lead characters, huh. We could have this girl on the cusp of being an adult, and through the game she has to grow and change and make difficult decisions as her story happens.
Dev #2: And you play the generic bearded guy who has to protect her so all that stuff can happen. The audience needs someone they can identify with. But she's the real star of the story.
Semantics aside, can we nominate some ladies for Best Revenge-Fuelled Badass or Best Action Hero or Scariest Mofo or whatever Best (character type here) you want to debate next?
Dev #1: Ok, so the audience really wants more female lead characters, huh. We could have this girl on the cusp of being an adult, and through the game she has to grow and change and make difficult decisions as her story happens.
Dev #2: And you play the generic bearded guy who has to protect her so all that stuff can happen. The audience needs someone they can identify with. But she's the real star of the story.
Semantics aside, can we nominate some ladies for Best Revenge-Fuelled Badass or Best Action Hero or Scariest Mofo or whatever Best (character type here) you want to debate next?
Gotta love how she became a SC fan's wet dream and wishing they were Jim Raynor.Realitycrash said:
Allow me to add a couple:Ukomba said:
Aya - Parasite Eve, Parasite Eve II
Morrigan - Darkstalkers (it was more of down the road)
Dawn - Secret of Mana
A much as I like Chell, if you couldn't look through Portals to see she was female, or have backstory to provide you with that information, you wouldn't know she was. There is nothing to characterize her as female in the game, besides her appearance. So she might as well be the cartoon you play when trying your custom built test chambers.Ukomba said:
I wanna say Jade from Beyond Good & Evil. Strong, likable and good-humored. Doesn't need a romance subplot in her story, too.
Strongest Female Video Game Lead Ever? Yet you two only talk about two recent games with female support characters. Lara Croft and Samus Aran go by unnoticed because both of their last games put them in a submissive relationship with the universe, or at least I hope that's why.
I can't really speak much for Ellie (need to watch a few more videos of TLoU), but Elizabeth is not a strong character. She's a bipolar girl who's morality is only existent when she wants it to be so, and she's dependant on Booker for half the game especially at the beginning when she's just the Princess in the Tower.
I can't really speak much for Ellie (need to watch a few more videos of TLoU), but Elizabeth is not a strong character. She's a bipolar girl who's morality is only existent when she wants it to be so, and she's dependant on Booker for half the game especially at the beginning when she's just the Princess in the Tower.
By that same standard you could say Link has personality. He usually starts a game with little to no backstory, and he never talks. His personality and character comes purely from the game play and adventure. Same goes for Mario and several other famous silent protagonists. After playing through her adventures, to me, she has as much if not more personality than Gordon Freeman.shtoops said:
Jade (Beyond Good and Evil)
vs Samus (minus Other M and the myriad of contradictions made to her character there)
I don't count FemShep since she is the same exact blank slate as Male Shepard (plus Paragon/Renegade/Neutral).
If the lead role is completely interchangeable between genders, it isn't a female lead (or male lead); but a gender neutral lead.
(nothing wrong with that, but calling FemShep a lead is a bit of a stretch)
vs Samus (minus Other M and the myriad of contradictions made to her character there)
I don't count FemShep since she is the same exact blank slate as Male Shepard (plus Paragon/Renegade/Neutral).
If the lead role is completely interchangeable between genders, it isn't a female lead (or male lead); but a gender neutral lead.
(nothing wrong with that, but calling FemShep a lead is a bit of a stretch)
Clearly neither presenter has played very many games if they seriously think Last of Us or Bioshock Infinite represent the pinnacle of female protagonists. It seems to me this is all about ratings and coming up with material the core of Escapist readership "gets"... which from this terrible piece consists of no one over the age of 16 (or they think no one remembers anything for more than a year). This video was laughably bad.
In some senses I agree with you, it certainly felt as though she was characterized, but in actuality she wasn't. What is happening is you are projecting your interpretation of the environment, and story, and dialogues onto her, and thinking that that is how she is. We really know nothing about who she is.Ukomba said:
It's a bit like having a pet (eesp. cats or dogs). You humanize them by attributing human emotions and idea onto their actions when in actuality they are not human. Personification is defined as "the attribution of a personal nature or human characteristics to something nonhuman, or the representation of an abstract quality in human form". While in the game Chell is human, to us she is a computer program. Because of this, strong female characters in video games have to be defined by themselves and the environment. Without the addition of the character adding to herself everything else has no context. Particularly in first person games where the character doesn't speak.
So we can't really know what Chell is like. Everything we feel for her, everything we know about her is either empirical information, or just wild speculation and personification of her personality.