No Right Answer: Who is Justice (Murderer Edition)

[Starik20X6]

It has to be said: Marvel or DC?

IMHO, Marvel has a better lineup, but DC wins by virtue of the goddamn Batman.

 

[Rakor]

FACE LITERARY JUSTICE PUNKS! /write

Anywho,

Death Note, weird show, too much boy on boy action fanfics of it that they totally knew would come of some of the scenes. Still, cool show, interesting philosophies, fun detective logic. Don't watch enough Dexter to know the ins and outs, but i would also lean to Dexter because he's simply older. While not a complete method for one choosing one, in this instance Light has high ideals but too often shows his immaturity in his actions. Too often does he panic when the fuzz is on his trail and he reacts by killing more and creating more trails to himself. He easily gets completely off the topic of justice while he's busy covering his own tracks when he could just stop killing for a while. Even if some paths point to him, without evidence he can just say, "How could I kill these people, magic books that kill people totally don't exist." Hell, he eventually has so little trust (spoiler alert) in himself that he wipes his mind of the whole ordeal until he gets more friendly with the opposition. Granted running away doesn't look good on the God of Justice Kira, but I digress. Dexter...takes his time. He makes sure who he is going to kill is who is supposed to be killed. He makes sure that no collateral damage is done. Imagine if he had a magical book of death. He still would probably take a week or more before an individual killing whereas Light would fill a page in a day.

Moving on, new topics hmm.....well firstly anything anime is great, mostly because it annoys Dan. Greatest Miyazaki movie? Totally Porco Rosso versus My Neighbor Totoro. Might be a rather lack of said movies seen, but yeah. (Miyazaki being the dude behind Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke if you don't recognize the name)

 

[Asita]

Hell, he eventually has so little trust (spoiler alert) in himself that he wipes his mind of the whole ordeal until he gets more friendly with the opposition.

...Lack of trust wasn't the rationale.

Spoiler

It was a memory gambit meant to make his innocence seem unquestionable, based on how he KNEW he'd react without memory of the Death Note, how the Investigation Team would likely act, and the new 'Kira' would undoubtedly act. He'd planned it from his memory loss to the resulting scenario, as the scene itself famously pointed out.

 

[Scrustle]

As much as I love Death Note I would never try to argue that Light is a good person to dole out justice. The power of the book twisted him in to something evil. That was pretty much the whole point of the show. Also part of what made it awesome. I've never seen Dexter but Dexter's Lab is totally awesome...

 

[beefpelican]

Who is the best fictional lawyer?
Come on, there are so many crime and courtroom dramas to choose from.

Good one (though probably not as fun), I vote Jack McCoy.

What about Best fictional cop? (Human)

Can I count Axe Cop as a human? If so, Axe Cop!

 

[beefpelican]

Anyone else feel like the main reason DeathNote lost 1 to 4 was because it's an anime and the judge openly hates anime? I mean, at the end of the day, even though I like DeathNote better as a show, I would say that Dexter has a much better sense of justice and is the rightful winner, but that's the ONLY time I've seen a margin wider than +/-1.

May have been a contributing factor, but I'm more inclined to say that the argument in favor of Light just wasn't up to snuff. I mean, let's give a synopsis of points that could have worked for the side, both in terms of setting up decent discussion on what does or does not qualify as justice and as things that give Light credit.

1) Light was the son of a detective, en route to becoming a detective himself (Mangaka ostensibly stated that had he not found the Death Note, Light would have become one of the greatest detectives in the world), capable of matching wits with the actual greatest detective in the world.

2) He was already a highly accomplished individual before he found the Death Note. Academically he was considered one of the smartest students in the nation, and in terms of police work he had already helped to solve several cases for the police. From the get-go he's basically an ideal character to represent the concept of justice, which is part of what makes his morally questionable methods so tragic.

3) Light was very capable of predicting the reactions of the public, to the extent that his plan revolved around those reactions. To the public, the hand of god would appear to be smiting the wicked, and that was his greatest weapon. People would support the actions due to their apparent divine nature and because of how those actions targeted those who 'deserved' divine retribution. At the same time, those inclined to do evil would know that they were doing so in a world where a supernatural force could and likely would target them for those actions, making them far less inclined to do so in the first place.

4) Let's look at the characters' goals for a minute. why do the two kill? Now, granted, I've never seen Dexter, so my interpretation may not be accurate, but my understanding is that he was recognized as a budding serial killer and was [secretly] taught to direct those homicidal tendencies towards those who deserve it. Now, the end result with both Dexter and Light is "bad guys get murdered", ostensibly putting them on equal moral ground in that regard. To that end, motive becomes a very important factor. Assuming I wasn't mistaken in my interpretation of Dexter (and again, having never seen the show, I very well could be), he kills because he actually enjoys killing. Conversely, we have Light, who is horrified when he first realizes that the Death Note actually works. He resolves to keep killing because he believes the world is rotting and needs cleansing. He convinces himself to use the death note for the sake of changing the world for the better. You can see the epiphany itself here:

Spoiler

5) It worked (repetition of my prior post). According to Near, Light's actions reduced global crime rates by 70%, and effectively ended wars. That's not just effective, that's downright incredible (and as a debate point: That's the kind of effect that Dexter could never match). And again, that was the entire point of his actions in the first place. He saw the world as needing change, worked to implement that change, and succeeded on a global scale.

Now, while I don't know if those would have won the debate, I think they are much stronger points than what was supplied for the character.

I'd say 1, 2, and 3 aren't really related to the "Who is justice" debate. They deal with why and how he accomplished his goals, but not with whether those goals were just. 4 is more relevant. If Light truly killed out of a sense of responsibility rather than for his own enjoyment, it would be a point in his favor. However, the moment you showed happens in the first episode, and by the end I'd say he loses a lot of his original focus, and instead falls in love with the power and kills to satisfy his feelings of superiority. As for 5, it is true that he dramatically decreases crime, so in a sense he could be The Law, but that doesn't mean he's just. Given that he responds to crimes like 'immorality', thievery, and being a person Light dislikes with instant death, he isn't really repaying crimes with equal punishment, something true justice requires.

Of course, I also don't really know if Dexter is any better, as I've also never seen it.

What do you think?

 

[Liquid Paradox]

I wan't to remind people that Light does not really murder in the name of Justice. Light murders defenseless convicts who are already in prison so that people will worship him. He then goes on to kill a whole mess of innocent people, losing more and more of his mind as he begins to see himself as a god.

Dexter is a man who has had to live with the burden of psychopathy for his entire life, and yet has managed to do more good then ill. With only one exception, every single one of his victims is themselves a murderer, who happens to be free to walk the streets. Every time he kills someone, it's not simply because he can, but because he feels he can hone his darkness to serve the light. There is really no contest.

Also... Dexter would kill Light if he ever met him. Lights abilities only work if he knows his victims name, and the only reason L failed to defeat him is because he wasn't willing to break the law in order to end Light's rein of terror. Dexter, on the other hand, doesn't give a shit about the law or privacy when gathering his own evidence. If he suspected Light, he would break into his house, find the Notebook, realize what's going on, and then butcher Light like the animal he is.

 

[esperandote]

Who is the best fictional lawyer?
Come on, there are so many crime and courtroom dramas to choose from.

Good one (though probably not as fun), I vote Jack McCoy.

What about Best fictional cop? (Human)

Can I count Axe Cop as a human? If so, Axe Cop!

Sure!

 

[Asita]

I'd say 1, 2, and 3 aren't really related to the "Who is justice" debate. They deal with why and how he accomplished his goals, but not with whether those goals were just. 4 is more relevant. If Light truly killed out of a sense of responsibility rather than for his own enjoyment, it would be a point in his favor. However, the moment you showed happens in the first episode, and by the end I'd say he loses a lot of his original focus, and instead falls in love with the power and kills to satisfy his feelings of superiority. As for 5, it is true that he dramatically decreases crime, so in a sense he could be The Law, but that doesn't mean he's just. Given that he responds to crimes like 'immorality', thievery, and being a person Light dislikes with instant death, he isn't really repaying crimes with equal punishment, something true justice requires.

Of course, I also don't really know if Dexter is any better, as I've also never seen it.

What do you think?

I'd actually argue that point 1 spoke towards his understanding of the justice system (including its methods, benefits and shortcomings), thus giving us insight into the forces that drive him. Point 2 speaks towards to his capacity to evaluate and pass judgement, and it in combination with point 3 worked towards pointing out the levels his plans worked on. The executions themselves were the most obvious part, but the most important part was the human element that would react to his actions, which would reduce the need for such executions as time went by, in direct proportion to crime levels. They're indirect, but I think they're important towards understanding the full picture on who better embodies justice.

Yes though, the clip I showed was indeed in the first episode and he did get worse over time, though I wouldn't go as far as to say that he lost sight of his goal. I'd say he just became FAR more willing to do evil to accomplish what he considered to be good. That said, one of the more telling moments about his mindset came late in the manga

Spoiler

when he recognized that the newest 'Kira' was acting too harshly for that phase of the plan

As to the law vs. justice...that's exactly the kind of conversation I hoped the points might inspire: "What does or does not qualify as justice"

 

[beefpelican]

Yes though, the clip I showed was indeed in the first episode and he did get worse over time, though I wouldn't go as far as to say that he lost sight of his goal. I'd say he just became FAR more willing to do evil to accomplish what he considered to be good. That said, one of the more telling moments about his mindset came late in the manga

Spoiler

when he recognized that the newest 'Kira' was acting too harshly for that phase of the plan

As to the law vs. justice...that's exactly the kind of conversation I hoped the points might inspire: "What does or does not qualify as justice"

That's a good point. One of the more touching parts of the anime (I didn't read the manga) was where he

Spoiler

gives up the Note and is an awesome dude for a season, instead of the evilest person around.

About the justice question: it is indeed a good question, probably beyond the scope of an escapist forum post. However, the way that I defined it when thinking about the embodiment of justice is eye for an eye. My reasoning was that more merciful characters are not justice because forgoing justice is what makes them merciful. More ruthless Law upholding characters (the murder is the same thing as jaywalking sort) don't really seem just because they are completely unbalanced in the opposite direction. For me, pure justice is balance.

Also, in your spoiler tag did you mean

Spoiler

Misa or Teru?

 

[mionic]

Light Yagami.
Dexter, if I recall, doesn't make world changing impressions, Kira did.

 

[Asita]

Also, in your spoiler tag did you mean

Spoiler

Misa or Teru?

The latter.

 

[ThunderCavalier]

Dexter, imo, is the true embodiment of justice (given the restrictions, since the Batman is not one of the choices), and the argument kinda nailed it down for me.

My only real problem with Light is that, in the end, he's really just one person with the power of God, and as you can see from Death Note, the whole point of the show is to show how Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely. He goes from a relatively well-meaning and upstanding high-school student to a paranoid and sociopathic mastermind who's obsessed with his self-perceived views of 'justice' and 'righteousness', to the point where ANYONE that disagrees with any facet of his beliefs or being (see: the Whammy siblings) is immediately wrong and needs to be eliminated. Light wasn't being worshiped out of respect by cults and the United States; he was respected because everyone was completely scared of him. He's the guy with the power to end your life immediately. He's not some kind of omnipotent deity; he's a guy with the most powerful WMD with the temerity to impose his will upon the world.

Dexter, on the other hand, is fully aware of the corruption of the world he lives in, and tenuously walks the line between absolving his sins and the sins of the world with his own dangerous abilities and giving in to his temptations and becoming a part of that cruel mockery. Justice isn't just about the righteousness prevailing and good being justified; it's about the suffering that the world goes through, and the fact that the world isn't perfect, and no amount of 'justice' will ever change that. It's a crapsack world, and 'justice' merely composes of people who want to turn it into less of a crapsack than it is.

 

[Chaos James]

Eh, I didn't care for this episode once I realized that it wasn't being fair to the debate.

Hopefully future episodes will be better, as this show is one of my favorites on the Escapist.