No, you don't date rape/gay erase a character in Fire Emblem Fates
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1) She says that it doesn't workxaszatm said:
1.5) The potion is just temporary
2) They're already close before she gets the potion, and she doesn't immediately fall in love with him. (Though I don't know how much time passes between the potion scene and your proposal)
3) Frankly, all the dialogue I've seen implies that she's a college-aged "bi-curious" girl, or one that's merely fetishizing the female form. Her dialogue suggests that, male OR female, you're the only one she finds truly beautiful.
All it does is temporarily flip what genders people appear as to her. So she sees guys as girls and girls as guys. The MC tells her this immediately after the fact. His plan was to simply get her used to the female form by sticking with her, and she instead goes off to ogle the male (now female in her eyes) guards. Either way, she comes back later and says it didn't work; that she still gets hot and bothered around cute girls.xaszatm said:
I will give the game this. This is by far the worst support conversation in the game. Nothing comes close. The writing actually has gotten better, though still not at the heights it once was. It's just that, ever since supports now end with marriage and most likely children, these marriage scenarios feel half-baked at best. It IS a remarkable feat that I only found 5 of the supports garbage with the rest ranging from ok to pretty damn good.Souplex said:
I was out, but The Mary Sue, Destructoid, and the International Business Times all reported on this using the tumblr post as a source. So, yeah, this IS getting media attention.EternallyBored said:
With all this being said, I do want to mention that I DO find this conversation really poor and unfortunate. I find it highly untasteful that Soleil and Carmilla, characters that both in-story and in-game mechanics are strongly hinted at being bisexual, have no same sex S-Supports. In fact, many same sex supports seem to be made for S-Supports (and marriage) as they tend to be more romantically written and generally BETTER written than many "hetero" supports. It really does feel like this game did include way more same-sex marriage in the game before it was cut for some reason.
That's schoolgirl lesbianism for ya; it's actually quite common in Japanese society, not just an anime thing (Class S relationships and all that). Oh well, give it a week and we'll all move on.valium said:
pretty much all that needed to be said in the thread.ZiggyE said:
His point still remains, both Fates and Awakening have utilized more anime tropes in their characters than previous titles.Aiddon said:
Whether or not you enjoy that is...up to you.
If the female bisexual char in question is already a bisexual before she takes the magic powder or whatever I fail to see how the game "turns" her straight.
Doesn't bisexual ALREADY mean that she has sex with guys too?
Why does it seem the case that only the gay aspect of bisexuality is worthwhile and the hetero one is somehow inferior?
Bisexual people in heterosexual relationships are not inferior to bisexual people in homosexual relationships. Why would there be an issue about this.
This whole premise is horribly dumb, I'm sorry.
Doesn't bisexual ALREADY mean that she has sex with guys too?
Why does it seem the case that only the gay aspect of bisexuality is worthwhile and the hetero one is somehow inferior?
Bisexual people in heterosexual relationships are not inferior to bisexual people in homosexual relationships. Why would there be an issue about this.
This whole premise is horribly dumb, I'm sorry.
Poor writing? It's some idiot using a rubbish translation tool on an Eastern language game.Fox12 said:
There is a chinese restraunt near me called 'Legal Food' because it is a terrible translation from something in Manderin that originally meant 'good food'.
A character using a 'drug' potion to make another character fall in love with them sounds less like 'date rape' and more of a cartoony Cupid scene...
Okay, how can a bisexual be gay erased? You don't turn anyone into anything, they like both sexes to begin with.
Also as far as i understood the potion just reverses the genders? So, males are considered to her to be female, which then means she still is into woman.
So nothing happened.
And it's definitly not date rape, wtf. How do people come up with that stuff?
Is it completly silly? Yes. Is it anything the rumors say? No, not even a little bit.
Also as far as i understood the potion just reverses the genders? So, males are considered to her to be female, which then means she still is into woman.
So nothing happened.
And it's definitly not date rape, wtf. How do people come up with that stuff?
Is it completly silly? Yes. Is it anything the rumors say? No, not even a little bit.
It's just more cultural ignorance from the perpetually offended.
For people who are curious, here is the trope in play - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RomanticTwoGirlFriendship
You see in Japan (and this used to hold true for the West as well) it's not considered strange for young girls to have intense friendship relationships with other girls. Holding hands, kisses on the cheeks, stuff like that. In fact, it's considered a relatively normal part of growing up. The cultural attitude here is that this is just "playing" at having a relationship in a safe way and that people will grow out of this stage eventually as they mature and their needs and desires change (basically puberty).
Now this doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who "grows out of it" becomes straight. You see, this stage of relationship is generally considered chaste (not sexual). When you mature into a sexual relationship then it's assumed that you will (for lack of a better term) "pick a side" instead of playing "pretend relationship".
This is often played for drama one of two ways. Either one character matures into wanting a more adult relationship and the other one doesn't, or they both mature but one of them decides that they actually "aren't into girls". There are probably hundreds if not more mangas that have this theme.
Anyway, the thing that most people who are not familiar with this don't seem to understand is that in their culture, they do not make the mistake of conflating someone who basically is just "girl crushing" (as my wife calls it) with someone who is an actual Lesbian. They know quite well what the difference is and they treat people differently because of it. While an actual lesbian might be thought of as "strange" by people, a girl who is still crushing on other girls (in a chaste way) is considered immature and in a state of arrested development.
The above is basically Soleil's character in this game. She's actually not sexually interested in girls, she is just as they say "girl crushing" on cute girls. To a Japanese person familiar with the cultural tropes, they would instantly understand this and it would be noted as a childish or immature thing (the fact that she faints when she sees a really cute girl is just a joke and played for laughs as being "wacky"). If you look at this and you look at her behavior in this context, then I think you can pretty easily come to the realization that her story arc is basically one of "growing up".
To put it extremely bluntly: It's about her overcoming her insecurities and being able to have an adult relationship.
It's pretty sad that this entire fiasco seems to have been started by a random tumblr post of all things where the person in question doesn't even own the game and was putting their own cultural interpretation forward based on a partially translated script that was posted to 4chan. But what's even sadder than that is how many gaming websites decided to print this garbage verbatim without doing one tiny bit of fact checking to see not only if her interpretation was correct, but if she actually even got the story right (she didn't).
For people who are curious, here is the trope in play - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RomanticTwoGirlFriendship
You see in Japan (and this used to hold true for the West as well) it's not considered strange for young girls to have intense friendship relationships with other girls. Holding hands, kisses on the cheeks, stuff like that. In fact, it's considered a relatively normal part of growing up. The cultural attitude here is that this is just "playing" at having a relationship in a safe way and that people will grow out of this stage eventually as they mature and their needs and desires change (basically puberty).
Now this doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who "grows out of it" becomes straight. You see, this stage of relationship is generally considered chaste (not sexual). When you mature into a sexual relationship then it's assumed that you will (for lack of a better term) "pick a side" instead of playing "pretend relationship".
This is often played for drama one of two ways. Either one character matures into wanting a more adult relationship and the other one doesn't, or they both mature but one of them decides that they actually "aren't into girls". There are probably hundreds if not more mangas that have this theme.
Anyway, the thing that most people who are not familiar with this don't seem to understand is that in their culture, they do not make the mistake of conflating someone who basically is just "girl crushing" (as my wife calls it) with someone who is an actual Lesbian. They know quite well what the difference is and they treat people differently because of it. While an actual lesbian might be thought of as "strange" by people, a girl who is still crushing on other girls (in a chaste way) is considered immature and in a state of arrested development.
The above is basically Soleil's character in this game. She's actually not sexually interested in girls, she is just as they say "girl crushing" on cute girls. To a Japanese person familiar with the cultural tropes, they would instantly understand this and it would be noted as a childish or immature thing (the fact that she faints when she sees a really cute girl is just a joke and played for laughs as being "wacky"). If you look at this and you look at her behavior in this context, then I think you can pretty easily come to the realization that her story arc is basically one of "growing up".
To put it extremely bluntly: It's about her overcoming her insecurities and being able to have an adult relationship.
It's pretty sad that this entire fiasco seems to have been started by a random tumblr post of all things where the person in question doesn't even own the game and was putting their own cultural interpretation forward based on a partially translated script that was posted to 4chan. But what's even sadder than that is how many gaming websites decided to print this garbage verbatim without doing one tiny bit of fact checking to see not only if her interpretation was correct, but if she actually even got the story right (she didn't).
It's because your character drugs her drink behind her back. I mean really that is nuts no matter what excuse you attach to it. You can't un-creep that.Adeptus Aspartem said:
The version I heard was that the main character slips the gender-vision-reversing-bizarro potion into her drink without her knowing it.
...
Which seems to be supported by everything I've read in the links in this thread.
Bleeeergh.
Not personally angry/offended/outraged or whatever, but my eyes are threatening to roll clear out of their sockets.
...
Which seems to be supported by everything I've read in the links in this thread.
Bleeeergh.
Not personally angry/offended/outraged or whatever, but my eyes are threatening to roll clear out of their sockets.
Zhukov said:
The way people (you included) word this is as though he's slipping her a date-rape drug or something. As though he has some nefarious purpose.
Kamui has no interest in her sexually by that point, he just wants her to not faint mid combat and get killed. You do realize this, right?
Well, that's slightly diffrent than: She goes to M!Kamui for help on this matter. M!Kamui gives Soleil a magic potion that, in her eyes, reverses the genders.nomotog said:
Which sounds like: "Hey, can you help me?" - "Yes, drink this".
But even if he did so without her noticing the intention is helping her and there's no rape happening. So.. daterape?
It's maybe an old trope, i give you that à la: "I want to help, but have to do it behind that persons back - oops, great misunderstanding/accident happens".
When I said you can't un-creep that, it was a invite to try, but well we are here, doing it to help doesn't help. It just makes it possibly more creepy as your forming an ends justify secret drugging thing. It tries to turn something creepy into something not creepy and that just makes it all the more creepy. And doing it to help doesn't address the big problem with secret drugging. The secret part. I mean if it was a consensual thing, then it wouldn't have the creepy date rape vibe. (There would still be other boggling things involved here, but I'm not going to unpack this. There is just too much to unpack I say we leave the suit case by the door and not talk.)Adeptus Aspartem said:
That's why I said there's no point in talking about it until it comes out. Either way, I couldn't care less. I'll buy it regardless.Elementary - Dear Watson said:
It still sounds silly, though. Not as silly as groping your squad mates, but pretty silly. I hope they don't mess this franchise up...