Non-linear vs Linear gaming.

[thebinaryone]

I was going to put this as, "Is non-linear gaming fundamentally better than linear gaming?" or maybe "Is linear gaming only for casual games" but that sounded kinda biased to me. I thought of this in another thread about casual gaming and it's impact on the industry when people started talking about how most games nowadays just have a corridor between you and the end goal and how older games with huge non-linear maps were so much better, and i thought...

surely there were games back then that were non-linear and were equally as bad as many linear games now? hell, a few of the non-linear games of now are not as good as a few linear games from years ago.

I mean yeah, Deus Ex, was a massive non-linear game with different ways of doing getting through it and is an absolute classic, but Portal was a short and sweet linear game with defined puzzles that you had to get right in a certain way and that game exploded in popularity in a way that noone on the design team probably imagined.

so i'd like to ask what the veiws among the escapist forums are; is non-linear just better than linear?

 

[Scrustle]

They're both equally good at different things. None is inherently better than the other. Age has nothing to do with it, apart from hardware limitations, but I'm talking about on a conceptual level.

To be frank I'm getting pretty sick of the hate for linear games. "Linear" has become an undeservedly dirty word, like "casual", except this makes even less sense. When people talk about linearity games like CoD always come up, but no-one ever mentions the fantastic linear games that are out there. Mirror's Edge, Portal (like you said), many Bioware games, Devil May Cry and other games in that genre, The Darkness and its sequel, the Prince of Persia games, No More Heroes 2, both Bioshock games... The list goes on and on, yet people only ever focus on a few single games which they hate for other reasons.

And I saw that thread you were talking about which was hating on the whole "casual" thing. Made me sick. The OP was full of the most idiotic stuff I've seen on these forums for a long time. I thought this place was better than that.

 

[DoPo]

They're both equally good at different things. None is inherently better than the other. Age has nothing to do with it, apart from hardware limitations, but I'm talking about on a conceptual level.

To be frank I'm getting pretty sick of the hate for linear games. "Linear" has become an undeservedly dirty word, like "casual", except this makes even less sense. When people talk about linearity games like CoD always come up, but no-one ever mentions the fantastic linear games that are out there. Mirror's Edge, Portal (like you said), many Bioware games, Devil May Cry and other games in that genre, The Darkness and its sequel, the Prince of Persia games, No More Heroes 2, both Bioshock games... The list goes on and on, yet people only ever focus on a few single games which they hate for other reasons.

Damn you! That's a /thread right there. Not only that, you stole what I said...before I said it. I'll report you for messing with time!

So, basically I'm saying I agree with Scrustle.

 

[CityofTreez]

Well, I was going to on a rant, but Scrustle said pretty much what I was going to say. So yeah.

 

[aguspal]

They're both equally good at different things. None is inherently better than the other. Age has nothing to do with it, apart from hardware limitations, but I'm talking about on a conceptual level.

To be frank I'm getting pretty sick of the hate for linear games. "Linear" has become an undeservedly dirty word, like "casual", except this makes even less sense. When people talk about linearity games like CoD always come up, but no-one ever mentions the fantastic linear games that are out there. Mirror's Edge, Portal (like you said), many Bioware games, Devil May Cry and other games in that genre, The Darkness and its sequel, the Prince of Persia games, No More Heroes 2, both Bioshock games... The list goes on and on, yet people only ever focus on a few single games which they hate for other reasons.

Damn you! That's a /thread right there. Not only that, you stole what I said...before I said it. I'll report you for messing with time!

So, basically I'm saying I agree with Scrustle.

Bioshock is at least partially open wordish thougt, I wouldt say that it is like Skyrim or anything like that, but it is less linear that a lof of those other games.

 

[Vegosiux]

It's more about freedom wuth purpose than anything, I'd say. And that Scrustle pretty much hit the grand slam after OP put the runners on the bases.

 

[DugMachine]

I think I enjoy linear gameplay more often than non-linear. I like having a goal and purpose as well as the means to do it. Not to say non-linear is bad.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Non linearity by definition gives players ultimate agency over what happens in the game which makes most types of developer driver narrative impossible. Few games are truly non linear as a result and most games that claim the title (Morrowind for example) are a series of linear bits strung together.

Since so few games have been truly non-linear, it is hard to claim a preference for them since it is largely an intellectual exercise. Or perhaps the better question current is if I prefer Roguelikes and 4x games over other types.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

Like Scrustle said (great post!), they both excel at different things and neither is inherently better.

That said, I personally feel like a hybrid of the two is usually the best way to handle things. Once again I'd like to propose the original Deus Ex as an example of how it can be done right (I know, I know... I'm a fanboy, but hear me out). At its core, Deus Ex is a linear game. You'll always start the story on Liberty Island, you'll always go to UNATCO HQ after that, you'll always go to Battery Park after that, and so on. You have no real choice in where the game takes you, because you're following a linear story in order to keep consistent pacing. However, the maps are designed in such a way to promote exploration, and they usually give you at least two or three different ways to approach each level's objectives. This gives the game the illusion of being open-world by allowing the player an above-average amount of freedom within each mission compared to the typical linear game.

So with a hybrid of linear and open-world like that, you can play up each style's strengths while working to reduce their weaknesses.

Captcha: danish robot dancers

lolwut?

 

[thebinaryone]

To be fair to CoD, MW1 had an awesome single-player story which was imho better than the later games in the series. I have played it through about 8-10 times (bit sad, i know, but the nuke bit is always awesome). And also, i'm not trying to say that one is better than the other, i personally think that context is the key for which is most appropriate. i.e. Red Dead Redemtion was a fav of mine and the whole wild west setting wouldn't have been the same if it didn't let you steal a guys horse and high tail it to the furthest mountain on the horizon. I like a nice big sandbox as much as the next man, but it seemed like the industry was treating it like a "deluxe" model of a game. Sort of like linearity was a "basic" thing that all games had and then you could upgrade to a better, more open world. Just seemed like the wrong kind of attitude to have.

also, Eclectic Dreck, i know that a laot of games claim to be non-linear or sandbox-y but i'd like to know what you would consider to be a truly non-linear game? (this is also open to everyone else if you have a good example)

 

[DoPo]

Captcha: danish robot dancers

lolwut?

OK, sorry for the offtopic, but the CAPTCHA has style - it means Nick and Jeppe from the Danish talent show. Worth mentioning because they [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbqeHELXW-I] are [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw6uBfKL9NU] awesome [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWCI8GUb4DI]. You have 10 minutes to spare (otherwise you won't be on this forum) - go check them out.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

OK, sorry for the offtopic, but the CAPTCHA has style - it means Nick and Jeppe from the Danish talent show. Worth mentioning because they [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbqeHELXW-I] are [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw6uBfKL9NU] awesome [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWCI8GUb4DI]. You have 10 minutes to spare (otherwise you won't be on this forum) - go check them out.

Okay, yeah, this is pretty awesome!

Sorry I doubted you, Captcha!

 

[Scrustle]

To be fair to CoD, MW1 had an awesome single-player story which was imho better than the later games in the series. I have played it through about 8-10 times (bit sad, i know, but the nuke bit is always awesome). And also, i'm not trying to say that one is better than the other, i personally think that context is the key for which is most appropriate. i.e. Red Dead Redemtion was a fav of mine and the whole wild west setting wouldn't have been the same if it didn't let you steal a guys horse and high tail it to the furthest mountain on the horizon. I like a nice big sandbox as much as the next man, but it seemed like the industry was treating it like a "deluxe" model of a game. Sort of like linearity was a "basic" thing that all games had and then you could upgrade to a better, more open world. Just seemed like the wrong kind of attitude to have.

Well my post wasn't really aimed at you. Your post seemed pretty neutral, I was just talking about the issue in general. When people complain about linear games CoD always seems to come up, and it's always hated on for it. "Linear" is one of the default criticisms that CoD haters always bring out because they don't really have any real criticisms to make. They just hear the word and regurgitate it out whenever CoD is mentioned. They don't think about it. They don't think about why they really don't like CoD or what "linear" actually means.

But you're right, it's about context most of the time. Like others have pointed out, usually it's a trade off between a well paced story and cool set pieces, vs. the ability to explore and general freedom. I like both, and it's cool for them to mix sometimes, but I generally prefer non-linear simply because I like to be able to go and do whatever I want whenever I want. Some of my favourite games a linear though, especially games with stories I'm fond of.

 

[thebinaryone]

To be fair to CoD, MW1 had an awesome single-player story which was imho better than the later games in the series. I have played it through about 8-10 times (bit sad, i know, but the nuke bit is always awesome). And also, i'm not trying to say that one is better than the other, i personally think that context is the key for which is most appropriate. i.e. Red Dead Redemtion was a fav of mine and the whole wild west setting wouldn't have been the same if it didn't let you steal a guys horse and high tail it to the furthest mountain on the horizon. I like a nice big sandbox as much as the next man, but it seemed like the industry was treating it like a "deluxe" model of a game. Sort of like linearity was a "basic" thing that all games had and then you could upgrade to a better, more open world. Just seemed like the wrong kind of attitude to have.

Well my post wasn't really aimed at you. Your post seemed pretty neutral, I was just talking about the issue in general. When people complain about linear games CoD always seems to come up, and it's always hated on for it. "Linear" is one of the default criticisms that CoD haters always bring out because they don't really have any real criticisms to make. They just hear the word and regurgitate it out whenever CoD is mentioned. They don't think about it. They don't think about why they really don't like CoD or what "linear" actually means.

But you're right, it's about context most of the time. Like others have pointed out, usually it's a trade off between a well paced story and cool set pieces, vs. the ability to explore and general freedom. I like both, and it's cool for them to mix sometimes, but I generally prefer non-linear simply because I like to be able to go and do whatever I want whenever I want. Some of my favourite games a linear though, especially games with stories I'm fond of.

Oh no i totally agree with you and I'm sorry if it seemed like i was having a go at you. Most of the series is kinda rubbish and it does get the whole linear "insult" thrown at it which is really supid. I'm all for a combo of the two as long as the designers wanted that from the start and it wasn't something they suddenly decided to have half way through because some other game came out that was really good and was either completely one way or the other.

Also, those danish guys are brilliant. i really hope they won that year XD

 

[Woodsey]

Linear games are fine. Linear games that want to be films are not. And these days, there's far too much of the latter, because developers don't know how to script events nor when they're appropriate. That's why Call of Duty's shit. Not because it's linear, but because its developers have no fucking clue how to use scripting or when to use scripting.

As far as I'm concerned, games (excluding stuff like RTS's, obviously) should fit into one of three categories:

The Half-Life 2 model: Linear, with scripted events, but still open enough to let you hang about in areas, have a little rummage, set your own pace. Uncharted 2 could probably snuggle into this category as well.

Deus Ex: Linear, but with sandbox missions. Thief, Hitman, what have you.

EVE/DayZ: Here's the map, fuck off.

 

[Scrustle]

Oh no i totally agree with you and I'm sorry if it seemed like i was having a go at you. Most of the series is kinda rubbish and it does get the whole linear "insult" thrown at it which is really supid. I'm all for a combo of the two as long as the designers wanted that from the start and it wasn't something they suddenly decided to have half way through because some other game came out that was really good and was either completely one way or the other.

Don't worry, I didn't think you were having a go at all. In fact I was worried you might think I was at you. I've been kind of irritable these past few days on here. A lot of stupid stuff has come up.

The combo thing can be hard to pull off, but I think the most common problem with it is that it can create a huge disconnect between the story and the gameplay. For example people criticised GTA 4 for having this problem. In the story Nico is all very serious and solemn. He's jaded and cynical. He hates killing because he's seen how horrific it can be, and he wants to get away from his past, despite being dragged back in to it. In the gameplay you're killing guys right and left without any qualms (in fact Nico even seems to be enjoying it too from the things he says), constantly stealing cars and driving around like a lunatic, and generally doing the usual GTA style mad, gleeful, wanton rampages. It kind of clashed with the story and took away from its weight. They were trying to tell a very directed and serious story in a specific way, but then they gave you the freedom to do the complete opposite. Turns out the opposite was all a lot of people wanted to do in the game.

 

[ohnoitsabear]

Linear games are fine. Linear games that want to be films are not. And these days, there's far too much of the latter, because developers don't know how to script events nor when they're appropriate. That's why Call of Duty's shit. Not because it's linear, but because its developers have no fucking clue how to use scripting or when to use scripting.

This. I think we need to come up with a new term for games like newer Call of Dutys or the single player for Battlefield 3 other than liner. Maybe hyper-linear, or interactive movies, or rail shooters where you move. Calling it linear needlessly dirties the term, especially because it is so broad and describes so many games.

Anyway, to answer the question, I love a lot of linear games, and I spend a vast majority of my gaming time playing games that are linear to some degree. That said, some of the best gaming experiences can come from the games that are truly non-linear, and rely on emergent gameplay to be fun. Something like Minecraft, or Dwarf Fortress, or Day Z would fall into this category, and those games have resulted in many people's best gaming experiences.