Noncombat realistic gameplay and writing

[The Apple BOOM]

I've been thinking on this for a while, as I'm sure many others have too. I can't for the life of me think of a well written game that does not either have combat (ex. pretty much everything) or isn't really abstract (ex. Super Brothers, Thomas was Alone, Braid). When I say abstract, I mean how in comparison to the combat games, the gameplay kinda doesn't make sense. Platformers make no realistic sense at all, especially.

The only style I could think of that might fit is point and click, but even then the gameplay is never challenging, it's never about honing skill, it's just messing with combinations and clues until you find the right one.

This is probably one of the biggest issues the industry faces, as there is so much more potential for the medium than just violence. How can we approach this and find a decent solution?

Edit: I'm asking for a game with noncombat and grounded, as in nonabstract and makes sense in the game world, gameplay that actually challenges, and good writing. An example may be Portal or Catherine, but even then, the failure state is death (or the equivalent of death).

 

[alphamalet]

This is probably one of the biggest issues the industry faces, as there is so much more potential for the medium than just violence. How can we approach this and find a decent solution?

I'm going to have to fundamentally disagree with the entire premise of this thread. Why does a game's gameplay need to be grounded in reality in order for the writing to have merit? Take a game like Catherine, a puzzle game that has you climbing towers of blocks with other sheep in your nightmares every night. Catherine has a plot that explores themes such as infidelity, commitment in a relationship, fear of change, and coming of age. Unfortunately, according to you, the dissonance between the gameplay of Catherine and reality is so vast that the writing doesn't matter. This is utter nonsense.

1) Using violence to depict consequence, effect, or visual stylization is not a sign that the industry is immature.
2) The industry should not be striving to be realistic. Period. Let artists explore familiar or unfamiliar themes in any sort of gameplay or plot setting that they wish. The diversity of games and originality of ideas will be far more beneficial to the industry than the misguided quest for non-voilent realism in gameplay juxtaposed by a specific brand of writing.

 

[The Apple BOOM]

I thought this might happen. I am not advocating getting rid of the violent or abstract games. I LOVE System Shock 2 and Super Brothers. I can't wait to try out Thomas was Alone. I just think there is also something else there that we aren't getting at yet.

If violence were only immature, we would have had Godfather. To think violence is only immature is immature in and of itself.

 

[alphamalet]

I thought this might happen. I am not advocating getting rid of the violent or abstract games. I LOVE System Shock 2 and Super Brothers. I can't wait to try out Thomas was Alone. I just think there is also something else there that we aren't getting at yet.

If violence were only immature, we would have had Godfather. To think violence is only immature is immature in and of itself.

Then what are you suggesting? Your first post discounts games that are not grounded in realism, and then goes on to say that the lack of substantive writing paired with non-violent realistic gameplay is one of the biggest problems facing the industry.

 

[The Apple BOOM]

I mean that we have all of this untapped potential, but no grasp on where to go with it. I want more System Shocks and Braids, but I also want the elusive game where it feels grounded, and violence and death aren't at the forefront. Surely we as an industry can come up with something, but where do we start?

 

[alphamalet]

I mean that we have all of this untapped potential, but no grasp on where to go with it. I want more System Shocks and Braids, but I also want the elusive game where it feels grounded, and violence and death aren't at the forefront. Surely we as an industry can come up with something, but where do we start?

I believe that what you just typed probably would have been a better way of framing your original post.

To answer that question then, I think the reason it isn't done as often as you might like is because people indulge in video games as a form of escapism. They want to fantasize, explore, and take part in experiences that give them a reprieve from their every day reality. At least that's my theory.

If we were going to move in a more "realistic" direction of gameplay with an equally substantive narrative, then perhaps a game that explores the responsibility placed on someone following a real-world decision would be a good place to start. Perhaps playing as a firefighter chief tasked with strategically delegating orders on how and where to deal with trauma as it arises, and then suffering the consequences of these ideas? I'm sort of shooting from the hip here, but like you said, there is a lot of potential.

Honestly, the reason I took issue with the original post is because you made it seem like disregarding realism in both plot and gameplay was somehow being detrimental to the industry. I'm willing to bet a few other people might take exception to the phrasing moving forward.

 

[Tom_green_day]

I was watching Austin Powers yesterday, and every time some random soldier in Dr. Evil's private army died, they had a little scene showing his friends and families receiving the news and being heartbroken. If they put this in a game, it would be great. People don't really like cutscenes, especially when they break the flow of combat, so having these would encourage the player not to be violent and to avoid.
If that's what you mean.

 

[Anthony Corrigan]

out of interest what kind of game would the opening poster like?

I mean there are various simulators, flight simulators, games like LSL which are about a nerd trying to get laid, sports games and thats just off the top of my head so what game do you think is lacking?

 

[freaper]

I mean that we have all of this untapped potential, but no grasp on where to go with it. I want more System Shocks and Braids, but I also want the elusive game where it feels grounded, and violence and death aren't at the forefront. Surely we as an industry can come up with something, but where do we start?

I believe that what you just typed probably would have been a better way of framing your original post.

To answer that question then, I think the reason it isn't done as often as you might like is because people indulge in video games as a form of escapism. They want to fantasize, explore, and take part in experiences that give them a reprieve from their every day reality. At least that's my theory.

If we were going to move in a more "realistic" direction of gameplay with an equally substantive narrative, then perhaps a game that explores the responsibility placed on someone following a real-world decision would be a good place to start. Perhaps playing as a firefighter chief tasked with strategically delegating orders on how and where to deal with trauma as it arises, and then suffering the consequences of these ideas? I'm sort of shooting from the hip here, but like you said, there is a lot of potential.

Honestly, the reason I took issue with the original post is because you made it seem like disregarding realism in both plot and gameplay was somehow being detrimental to the industry. I'm willing to bet a few other people might take exception to the phrasing moving forward.

To this I say: L.A. Noire. Violence and death are a central theme, but a justified one. The main protagonist joins the LAPD because he wants to deal with the mistakes he made in the past. The setting and narrative are respectively realistic and not abstract at all. It plays like a solid GTA game, but it reminds me more of a Greek tragedy.

 

[WanderingFool]

I was watching Austin Powers yesterday, and every time some random soldier in Dr. Evil's private army died, they had a little scene showing his friends and families receiving the news and being heartbroken. If they put this in a game, it would be great. People don't really like cutscenes, especially when they break the flow of combat, so having these would encourage the player not to be violent and to avoid.
If that's what you mean.

What? I dont remember seeing any scene like that in Austin Powers... is that a special edition or something?

 

[llafnwod]

Mirror's Edge *does* have combat, but it's not the core gameplay mechanic, and the movement is neither abstract nor (barring the horizontal wallrun and grab-a-ledge-after-falling-10-meters abilities) ridiculously unreal. Unfortunately the story is pretty lackluster. With stripped combat and decent writing, there's your game.

 

[Glongpre]

Do you mean a game like Dear Esther? For sure, a niche genre.

 

[josemlopes]

LA Noire kind of does fall on that, it has those action segments and stuff but most of it is about talking and doing natural things like looking at and picking up stuff.

There are some other niche games like Pathologic, I dont even know if you actually use a weapon in that. I would also like to see something close to a point and click adventure game but with a more typical gameplay like LA Noire, adventure games usually have a very dynamic story but the gameplay itself is so much the opposite, everyone just stands there and the main character just says a line or two for every object you touch.

And I got what you meant from your first post, in here its like if you say anything that is diferent to something then you actively oppose the original stance.

 

[sextus the crazy]

I was watching Austin Powers yesterday, and every time some random soldier in Dr. Evil's private army died, they had a little scene showing his friends and families receiving the news and being heartbroken. If they put this in a game, it would be great. People don't really like cutscenes, especially when they break the flow of combat, so having these would encourage the player not to be violent and to avoid.
If that's what you mean.

What? I dont remember seeing any scene like that in Austin Powers... is that a special edition or something?

I think it was a deleted scene or something like that because I remember seeing it too.

OT: giving more context and characterization to the violence would be great. Even if there were only like 3 people you had to kill in the game, if the game made these kills feel important it would be awesome.

 

[Blaze the Dragon]

I've been playing Animal Crossing for way too long recently. Other than the fact that the villagers are animals, there's nothing really abstract about the game. I mean the villagers might as well just be people, they just happen to look like animals cause it gives the game a cool art-style. No, combat, not really surreal in any way I can think of as far as I can tell.

 

[DoPo]

I was watching Austin Powers yesterday, and every time some random soldier in Dr. Evil's private army died, they had a little scene showing his friends and families receiving the news and being heartbroken. If they put this in a game, it would be great. People don't really like cutscenes, especially when they break the flow of combat, so having these would encourage the player not to be violent and to avoid.
If that's what you mean.

That...actually sounds cool.

OT: Video related to violence


That guy is wise. Basically, there is an argument that violence is a self-perpetuating habit. And I support it - it's a habit of the industry and us gamers, a large part of the audience expects action in games, and developers expect to put in action to appease that audience. If you release a game with no violent action in it...well, chances are it won't flop, however, it also won't be as a big success as shooters, fighters, etc.

And the solution proposed is in the title - slow down the violence. It is a viable path to take - we don't even have to do away with violence as a whole, I'm not suggesting that, but shifting the emphasis, so it actually means something could certainly be a change for the better.

 

[Tom_green_day]

What? I dont remember seeing any scene like that in Austin Powers... is that a special edition or something?

It was the first AP film I've seen but I'm pretty sure it was the sequel, called International Man of Mystery. It only happened twice though.

 

[spartan231490]

This is probably one of the biggest issues the industry faces, as there is so much more potential for the medium than just violence. How can we approach this and find a decent solution?

I'm going to have to fundamentally disagree with the entire premise of this thread. Why does a game's gameplay need to be grounded in reality in order for the writing to have merit? Take a game like Catherine, a puzzle game that has you climbing towers of blocks with other sheep in your nightmares every night. Catherine has a plot that explores themes such as infidelity, commitment in a relationship, fear of change, and coming of age. Unfortunately, according to you, the dissonance between the gameplay of Catherine and reality is so vast that the writing doesn't matter. This is utter nonsense.

1) Using violence to depict consequence, effect, or visual stylization is not a sign that the industry is immature.
2) The industry should not be striving to be realistic. Period. Let artists explore familiar or unfamiliar themes in any sort of gameplay or plot setting that they wish. The diversity of games and originality of ideas will be far more beneficial to the industry than the misguided quest for non-voilent realism in gameplay juxtaposed by a specific brand of writing.

That was quick. /thread in comment one, well done.

I have little to add, though I will point out that violence is such a big part of gaming because it's a huge part of the human condition. Conflict and fighting define humanity, even a cursory examination will reveal that much. As such, it makes perfect sense that the only interactive artistic medium reflects that with combat being an integral part of so many games.

 

[Lilani]

This is probably one of the biggest issues the industry faces, as there is so much more potential for the medium than just violence. How can we approach this and find a decent solution?

I get why "realism" is attractive to you, and I think adding some more of it to games would yield interesting results. But I don't see a lack of "realism" as you see it in games as something they lack, or something that needs to be improved upon. I absolutely love Bastion, from its lush color palette, to its stylized characters, to the mechanics of the infrastructure appearing around you, to the way drinking 10 kinds of alcohol makes you fight better, to the whimsical way you "fly" on air currents from island to island. I don't think that game needed any realism, one way or another. I totally bought into the world, and my only complaint is that I would love to see even more of it.

So yes, I'll agree that "realism" is something that has potential and should be explored more, but I totally disagree that it's some sort of "problem" with currently existing games that needs to be rectified. Maybe for games like Medal of Honor or CoD that claim to have a level of realism, but not for games as a whole. It's something that should be explored in new games that aren't quite sure what they want to be, not to be shoehorned into existing ones that already know what they are.

As for "messing with combinations" and such, you can find a lot of that in Skyrim. I had a blast just gathering alchemy ingredients on my travels, and then sitting down and experimenting to see what worked and what didn't. It was immersive and deep. However, if they had taken this aspect of "realism" to the point of having to poop on a regular basis, I doubt that would have helped the immersion any.