Now THAT'S a Dragon Fight!!!

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

It isn't hyperbole. I'm sorry my opinion offends you so much, but I really mean it when I say it's one of the hardest games I've played. Super Mario was difficult too, sure. But I also used to be really bad at games back when I played it.

It doesn't offend me, but I can't take you seriously if you think Dark Souls is one of the hardest games ever. A game where all you have to do is move slowly with your shield up, pay attention, pull enemies to you one at a time, block as they attack, and then hit them afterward is not hard (and that can be done with a Dex character with a light shield). You do the same damn thing all game to probably well over 90% of the enemies. I get why people say Dark Souls is hard because the majority of people aren't very bright as it's all about not making the same mistake over and over again. I play online shooters and I'm very good at them, but over 90% of the players don't even know how to play properly, they don't even try to win. Most players all cap the objective/zone/base right outside their spawn at the start of the game in the basic 3 zone domination type mode found in COD, BF, etc. You go for the middle zone at the start. Why would sit outside your spawn and just LET the other team have map control thus resulting in you losing within 30 seconds?

I'm sorry if your definition of difficulty doesn't include learning. But the overwhelming majority of the internet (who has actually played the game) disagrees with your silly opinion on how hard the game is.

A hard game is about learning AND execution. Dark Souls has really nothing on the execution side except a few bosses. Just learning alone doesn't make a game hard unless the learning is constantly changing. A puzzle can be easy or hard depending on how complex it is. Dark Souls' "puzzles" to figure out how to beat an enemy or get through a section are all very simple and you can employ the same strategy pretty much all game to defeat the game's enemies. I played through the sewer dungeon and Sen's Fortress (including the bosses) without dying a single time. I can go and play Bayonetta and still get a tough as nails challenge because the game is not just knowledge-based and the your execution needs to be near perfect. The fight on the highway against 3 Gracious & Glorious is harder than anything in Dark Souls. Bayonetta's dodge offset mechanic is harder to master than any mechanic in Dark Souls. If a game is all execution, it can still be very hard like those "bullet hell" games; however, a completely knowledge-based game isn't hard unless it's just really really really hard to figure everything out, which Dark Souls isn't.

I don't know why you keep implying that I didn't play Dark Souls, check my trophies, I played and beat it. The majority of people are going to find Dark Souls hard because the majority of people don't even understand how to play the simplest objective mode in a shooter and they do the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Dark Souls will eat those people for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

But what if mine was not a shitty comparison all along? I added to time to show it's not tedious, that you don't have to do long stretches of farming or successive deaths to successfully complete the run, and that it's just as long as any of my other runs where I'm just casually playing the game. In this case, you're the only one left saying stupid things.

Your 1st time through a game is going to be longer than any run you do, that's why it's a shitty comparison.

And yet the combat in Dark Souls is a major component of the atmosphere. If you knew the enemies are pushovers that can't possibly kill you, the atmosphere would completely dissipate.

Dark Souls would still be atmospheric if there were no enemies, the levels just have that feel to them. And the enemies were pushovers. Also, zombies are pushover enemies yet are very dangerous at the same time and provide lots of tension.

If the fight was a glorified cutscene I'd feel cheated and wronged. The more significant the events surrounding the fight, the more epic the fight becomes. But it has to measure up to the buildup, otherwise it's nothing of substance. When I'm standing in front of the boss frantically trying to avoid death all around me, managing my stamina, looking out for his attacks and trying to find an opening to get even one hit in, the last thing I'll be thinking is "ha ha I'm slicing at his shins".

Why is he still alive and so very feared if all it takes is some guy with a sword slicing at his shins to beat? That's what I think about every fight that's built up and the way to kill said enemy is lame. Borderlands 2 built up Wilhelm to be all hard and difficult and the fight was a joke, the whole game up to that point was a character saying "Thank god, Wilhelm wasn't there" or "I hope you don't run into Wilhelm." If it wasn't built up, then it would've just been an easy fight and nothing more.

Should I make a list of all the Demon's Souls bosses and tell you how wrong you are?

Nah, I'll take my friend's word on it and the other poster's word as well.

 

[Amnesiac Pigeon]

I admire the ambition that Dragon's Dogma showed. But it just didn't work for me.

The climbing aspect felt very buggy. The worst aspect being that you just clip through the enemies and fall to the floor when you let go of the grab button. It also was incredibly difficult to move your character in a specific direction once you've grabbed hold of them.

But then I guess I had just replayed Shadow of the Colossus before starting Dragon's Dogma. So its not really fair to compare it to game that uses it as its main mechanic.

Also for what its worth; I feel like Dark Souls achieved what it set out to better than Dragon's Dogma did. Heres hoping a sequel can tap that potential and let it truly shine.

 

[Innegativeion]

Yeah running into random dragons was real fun in that game. Even the smaller stuff was a good challenge on lower levels, it made for a fun time.

That being said, I can't rightfully give DD any awards for Dragon fighting when this glorious boss exists...

Just feels so good. One person, one giant fucking dragon,, and a big place to fight in. It's a lot less flashy than DD but it feels a whole lot better when you finally win.

I've got to concur here. No anime acrobatics or crawling all over Kalameet. Not that those things can't be exciting, Dark Souls is simply not about that.

Regardless, I'll always site Kalameet as one of the best boss fights in gaming. He's suitably foreshadowed. There's a good reason he doesn't just fly up and start passing overhead, spraying flames all over you safely out of your range, like most dragons in games fail to do. In fact, if you fight him before a certain point, he WILL just fly out of your range and cook up some fresh roast hero.

His fight is frantic and nerve wracking, and even when you feel like a badass for actually managing to stagger him, or narrowly dodge that fucking third-eye attack of his, you still feel in constant danger. And so you should; you're fighting a fucking dragon!
_______________________________________

That said, I feel Maleficent's 2nd form from Kingdom Hearts shares many of these same qualities with Kalameet (and both are black dragons with a-typically colored fire. Go figure). Lots of shit happening lots of danger.

Maleficent is also notable for subverting a common trope that ruins dragon boss fights; arbitrary attack frames/hit boxes.

To explain, a lot of video game dragons are completely harmless except for when they do a specific, pre-set animation, and then only specifically where the attack lands. Dragons should be massive, so that doesn't make much sense. Appropriately, Maleficent can damage you (with quite a large range) just by stepping near you.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Regardless what your opinion on it is, this is one of the hardest games of this generation. I'm sure even you can agree with me on this one.
Wait, no, you said it's a cakewalk. Well then, I guess the entire internet minus you can agree with me on this one.

It's not one of the hardest games of this gen unless you are comparing other games' Normal difficulty to Dark Souls. But like I said previously, that's apples and oranges because most games are designed to be beaten on Normal and the real challenge is on the harder difficulties whereas Dark Souls doesn't have difficulty levels and it's designed to challenge you from the start. Vanquish and Bayonetta on Hard are harder than Dark Souls. Just Challenge 6 on Vanquish is harder than anything in Dark Souls. MLB The Show on Legend is harder, XCOM is harder (when you don't save scum), Outland is harder. Metal Gear Online was probably the hardest game of this gen; no health regen, aiming skill required was through the roof (as headshots were required; you shoot someone in the chest, you died), knifing was a 3-step process, etc.

Way to insult everyone who disagrees with you. They don't share your opinion? They must be STUPID.

The majority of people are going to find Dark Souls hard because the majority of people don't even understand how to play the simplest objective mode in a shooter

Way to insult people who have different opinions, take 2. It's becoming clear that you're running out of arguments.

Have you played on online shooter recently? The reason it's recommended to not play with randoms is because how bad the average player is; it's not that they don't have good aim or something like that, it's that they don't even understand what to do to win. I'll play with anyone, regardless of skill, as long as they try to win. The vast majority of players camp, don't play the objective, and somehow have KDRs under 1.0; I don't even understand how that's possible. Most people just don't learn whatsoever, they keep going to the same spot over and over, getting killed over and over. And, then all the snipers that 1) don't know how to even play the class (they don't even know where to be and what to shoot on) and 2) don't have aim even close to good enough to snipe. Hop on any online cover shooter and you see most players using the cover system like all game, they don't realize that all the good players very rarely are in cover, you'd think that seeing xAwesome_sauce-- going 30-5 barely using cover would be a sign that maybe you should stop using cover, especially when there's a killcam so you can see what they did to kill you over and over again. 1st rule of cover shooters is to use the cover system as little as possible (just visit my Youtube if you want like 100 matches of proof). Even if you don't play shooters, you know how popular they are so it's not like you have all these players where this is literally their first shooter and it's understandable they are beginners and learning. So you can see why Dark Souls would be hard, very hard, for a lot of people.

And the major defining trait of a pig is its wings. A hard game is a game most people will have difficulty with. Most people have difficulty with Dark Souls. Therefore dark souls is a hard game. Don't make up definitions just because they're convenient to you.

I can teach anyone to breeze through Dark Souls as I just have to show them a couple things and they'll be golden; move slowly at all times with a shield up, pull enemies to you one at a time, always fight 1v1, stats to level (Vit, End, Str or Dex, Int or Faith for magic or neither and use pyromancy if you want), find a weapon you like and level it, lower your shield in-between enemy multi-hit attacks to regain stamina, and that's about it. There's nothing you have to master so pretty much anyone can do it.

A lot less atmospheric then. There is no bigger feeling of dread than dogs that can instantly kill you jumping out of the darkness.
Zombies are pushovers and only dangerous in large numbers or when there's a specifically non-pushover version of zombie. Are you of the opinion that there can't be tension unless there's large numbers of enemies attacking you at once?

The dread of not knowing what's ahead is worse than the dread of knowing what's ahead. A single zombie by himself can be the one that takes you out, the most tense scenes in zombie movies/shows are not the scenes where there's lots of zombies. The Fatal Frame series is the scariest games I've ever played so much so that at many times I actually did not want to continue on and the games don't throw lots of enemies at you at once.

Before the fight, Kalameet was nigh unkillable because all he did was fly over you and roast you with his fire breath. It took an arrow the size of a spear shot by a master giant archer to ground him. And even after that, if you weren't undead and thus immune to death, there is only the slightest chance you'd be able to beat him on your first try. Did I mention you were about the only undead person around?

THAT is why he's still alive and very feared.

There's like no one else around (living or undead) for the most part except for a few NPCs and yourself. Unless it's one of those things where all the other players are playing through the game also count as inhabitants, then there's a lot of undead people around.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Honestly I have nothing to really contribute to this discussion other than Grigori is probably the best dragon in video games to date.

Just look at that smug bastard, he's fully aware of it.

I just fought Grigori and it was perhaps the most epic fight in a video game ever, even better than Shadow of the Colossus in many respects. In Dark Souls, you have to get help to shoot down Kalameet; fuck that shit, I fucking shot down Grigori not once, but twice. It was so awesome to grab onto his underside and slash away at his heart while seeing his health bars drop considerably. Then, he kept grabbing me and throwing me to the ground as I tried to do it again. Then, as he's on his last health bar, my main pawn summons that awesome as hell looking tornado to bring him down as I'm riding on the top of his head. Then, I finish him off with an arrow to the heart.

 

[Cybylt]

Worth noting it's entirely possible to shoot Kalameet down yourself, it's just very very hard and you only got one shot before you're roasted.

Gough even has special dialogue if you do it.

People who have (maybe) played the game and (maybe) thought Kalameet was a poor boss fight:
Cybyit ("Demon's Souls bosses were far better overall than Dark Souls")

You can put me on the people who like the fight list, all I said was that I feel Demon's is overall better in terms of bosses because of various tricks (usually pretty simple ones, but people generally don't consider them before hand) done before or during the fight. In that regard Kalameet is more akin to Demon's bosses than most Dark bosses are.

You are right that Demon's is super exploitable and Dark fixes a lot of core mechanics, but because of lack of reused bosses, no obvious development fatigue in the final stretch, and bosses implementing mechanics in their intended fashion (looking at you, Gwynn) Demon's comes across as a more satisfying pve experience to me personally.

I just also feel there are cases of dragons being done better in DD even if they're not entirely comparable since the two games have radically different approaches to... everything.

Speaking of Demon's I suggest people check out the popular streamers and youtube guys and get on starting on November 23rd, they're trying a "SoulsGivings" event where them and their fans will try to make things feel like launch again by filling up specific levels on certain days starting with 1-2/2-1 on the 23rd.

Snip

As an importer of 4, you are going to have a lot to love in the next year or so.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

So you listed a bunch of games that are (probably) harder if you don't play them on the intended difficulty. Go you. Dark Souls is still one of the hardest games this gen, and listing a few games that are harder than it doesn't prove anything otherwise.

Games don't really have an "intended" difficulty anymore as players are given the option to play on the difficulty they see fit (as you are allowed to change difficulties at any point as well for most games). Normal is intended to give an average gamer enough of a challenge for it not to be a cakewalk. I'm comparing other games' difficulties that are intended to be a challenge to Dark Souls, which is apples to apples, you're comparing apples to oranges.

And the Vanquish challenges aren't set to any difficulty (there's no difficulty setting for them) so the I'd say those challenges are the intended difficulty for the game (which would be closest to the game's Hard setting) and they are harder than Dark Souls.

Metal Gear Online had no difficulty setting obviously as it's an online game and it's a far harder game than Dark Souls. You have the constant knowledge-based difficulty as you playing vs human opponents and the pure skill required is just through the roof.

Of course, XCOM is harder and there isn't even any player skill involved (outside of strategy) as it's all turn-based.

Dark Souls wouldn't even come close to the top 10 hardest games this gen.

Dark Souls appeals to a completely different demographic than online shooters. I've seen starcraft 2 pro gamers have intense difficulty with the game. But I guess they're just not good enough at playing video games.

It doesn't matter what demographic plays shooters. I was using online shooters to show how bad the average gamer is. The majority of people that play shooters have put well over 100 hours into them and don't even understand the most basic concept of how to take and defend an objective, it's the same for every shooter.

I very much doubt a Starcraft 2 pro is going to have much trouble with Dark Souls once they figure it out, which could take some time as Starcraft and Dark Souls require different skillsets.

You can teach anyone to breeze through Dark Souls as long as you stand behind them all the time and explain what to do every step of the way. Otherwise no they won't breeze through the game.

Nope, just give me 15-30 minutes with any competent player and I'll have them breezing through the game. Like I said, you only have to employ a few strategies all game, you just do the same thing over and over again. I made it through Sen's Fortress without tripping any trap and without any help. Just play cautious and you'll be fine.

Either he's a pushover, or he can take you out by himself. You can't have both. Though I wonder what game you have in mind. The only game I can think of where zombies were dangerous alone is Amnesia, in which you didn't have any weapons.

You can have both. Zombies are easy to kill; however, they have that one-hit kill ability as well (like those frogs that curse you). You let up your guard for a second or act hastily and just one zombie by himself will take you out. That is pretty much every Dark Souls enemy but without the one-hit kill ability, they can all do decent damage to you though.

You are right that Demon's is super exploitable and Dark fixes a lot of core mechanics, but because of lack of reused bosses, no obvious development fatigue in the final stretch, and bosses implementing mechanics in their intended fashion (looking at you, Gwynn) Demon's comes across as a more satisfying pve experience to me personally.

Sure, I won't contest that. I also think Demon's Souls bosses had more interesting concepts overall.

You were arguing against that very fact and I said I'd take my friends word and the other poster's word that the Demon's Souls bosses were better. Almost all the Dark Souls bosses for me were extremely lame.

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

Could someone please give Twenty Ninjas a medal or something?
I'm impressed he has managed to discuss with Phoenix for so long. I'm sensing a new record coming up!
Go TN! You can win this!

OT:I found the DD boss fights amazing the first time. The second, third..etc.etc. it was just tedious as hell.
I think I only killed one of every massive ''boss'' as going through the tedious 'climb,slash,fall off' rinse and repeat routine was boring as fuck after the first time.

Apart from boss fights becoming some of the most tedious fights in rpg's after your first run, I found the game pretty good.

 

[Cybylt]

Could someone please give Twenty Ninjas a medal or something?
I'm impressed he has managed to discuss with Phoenix for so long. I'm sensing a new record coming up!
Go TN! You can win this!

OT:I found the DD boss fights amazing the first time. The second, third..etc.etc. it was just tedious as hell.
I think I only killed one of every massive ''boss'' as going through the tedious 'climb,slash,fall off' rinse and repeat routine was boring as fuck after the first time.

Apart from boss fights becoming some of the most tedious fights in rpg's after your first run, I found the game pretty good.

There is no winning here, it is an internet fight in the purest sense.

On DD, you gotta mix that shit up man. There are a lot of options for approach, my personal favorite being the Warrior's Arc of Obliteration that with the right build lets you one-shot chimeras and two shot most any other boss monster.

Daimon from Dark Arisen is a really good boss fight as well since he's basically Zod the Immortal from Berserk.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Any game will have a default difficulty it's tuned, tested and balanced around during development. Generally, upping or lowering it will just result in an increase of enemy hit points and damage, with a few exceptions such as Metro 2033's ranger mode.

Dark Souls doesn't have multiple difficulty modes because it's all about how difficult you want to make it for yourself. From summoning 2 players for every boss to doing soul level 1 no shield runs, there's emergent gameplay to suit anyone who wants a challenge. If you're trying to argue that some game's "challenge mode" is harder than a casual Dark Souls playthrough, that's an unfair comparison.

You don't know what difficulty level was the main difficulty level the game was tested and balanced on. All difficulty modes are tested as well. And, difficulty levels aren't just upping and lowering hit points and damage taken as in the case of both Bayonetta and Vanquish. A lot is tweaked with enemy AI in stealth games as you go from level to level.

Vanquish's challenge modes are really nothing but stuff you do in the main game, it's just there's no checkpoints and death means you have to start over just like (oh, I don't know) Dark Souls. It's not that the enemies hit harder or take more damage or anything like that.

Just wow, every game is pretty much as hard as you want to make it for yourself, that's not something only Dark Souls has. You can play through MGS4 going for the Big Boss emblem which requires to beat the game in under 5 hours, use no continues, use 0 health items, have no alerts, and kill no one. I can play through Dragon's Dogma solo on Hard and with whatever restrictions as well. XCOM has Ironman mode where it's basically Dark Souls save system.

Even fucking Kirby is as hard as you make it for yourself:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/3769-A-Different-Kind-of-Difficulty

You want to know what Dark Souls doesn't let you do? It doesn't allow the OPTION to play it on an easier difficulty. I wanted the option to play on a harder difficulty, but that wasn't there. And if you are against Dark Souls getting an easy mode, you're basically just as much as a bigot as those that don't want gay people getting married as Jim Sterling points out here:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6601-Dumbing-Down-for-the-Filthy-Casuals

Dark Souls wouldn't even come close to the top 10 hardest games this gen.

Again, empty words that will be laughed at by almost everyone who played the game.

Which would just be tip off for me to know that they aren't good at games to begin with.

It doesn't matter what demographic plays shooters.

These things that come out of your head, do you make them up on the spot or prepare them ahead of time? The average console shooter player doesn't play Dark Souls.

It wasn't about whether a shooter player will play Dark Souls or not, I merely brought it up to show how bad the average gamer is. Not to mention most RPG players will think that if they can't beat an enemy, it will be due to being too low a level vs it being on them as that is how the genre has conditioned them over the decades.

I was making the same point George Carlin makes about stupid people, "think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are stupider than that."

Spoiler: George Carlin - Stupid People

Nope, just give me 15-30 minutes with any competent player and I'll have them breezing through the game.

You're just a rollercoaster of silly, unprovable, subjective opinions aren't you.

You have no way to disprove that either. Dark Souls does nothing but punish the ignorant and the impatient. The game doesn't punish the unskilled except in a very few boss fights. I tell them how the game mechanics work since the game doesn't tell you that and I show them that being patient wins pretty much every fight, and they will be breezing through the game. I don't even need to show something like the riposte because that's too risky for the little benefit you receive.

There's various enemies in the game with grab attacks that just might kill you in one shot if you have low hp. At one time I thought they were dangerous, but as I got better I thought they were pushovers. Never did I think they were both at the same time.

A level 1 goblin hitting you for 2 HP damage when you have 200 HP is both a pushover and not dangerous. An enemy that can one-hit kill you or take a good chunk of health always has danger to it even if they are easy to defeat. All enemies in Dark Souls can hurt you at least decently regardless of how easy they are to kill. You don't need dangerous enemies for atmosphere anyways, which is the whole point. Zombie games/movies/shows can have plenty of atmosphere with enemies that are pushovers all while not throwing several at the character at once.

All together now:
Demon's Souls > Dark Souls in concept.
Dark Souls > Demon's Souls in execution.
You seem to have comprehension problems. I'd advise paying more attention.

All together now:
Horrible concept executed well < good concept executed poorly

I have the option of not cheesing the Demon's Souls bosses (you're main complaint about the Demon's Souls bosses is that they are too easy to cheese) whereas I don't have the option to improve the boss fight design in Dark Souls. What I want is the option to not poke the boss to death, which I can do in Demon's Souls but not in Dark Souls. Sadly the fucking tutorial boss in Dark Souls is one of the best designed bosses in the whole game, it was quite awesome being able to jump down on him and take half his health. Of course, I'd rather have something like that left up to the player to discover instead of showing the player that (but it was just the tutorial). Just because it is actually easier to poke the boss to death in Demon's Souls doesn't matter because I won't be doing that as I won't have fun doing that so it's a non-issue for me. A good boss fight is much more than throwing a bigger enemy at you with more HP that hits harder.

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

Could someone please give Twenty Ninjas a medal or something?
I'm impressed he has managed to discuss with Phoenix for so long. I'm sensing a new record coming up!
Go TN! You can win this!

OT:I found the DD boss fights amazing the first time. The second, third..etc.etc. it was just tedious as hell.
I think I only killed one of every massive ''boss'' as going through the tedious 'climb,slash,fall off' rinse and repeat routine was boring as fuck after the first time.

Apart from boss fights becoming some of the most tedious fights in rpg's after your first run, I found the game pretty good.

There is no winning here, it is an internet fight in the purest sense.

On DD, you gotta mix that shit up man. There are a lot of options for approach, my personal favorite being the Warrior's Arc of Obliteration that with the right build lets you one-shot chimeras and two shot most any other boss monster.

Daimon from Dark Arisen is a really good boss fight as well since he's basically Zod the Immortal from Berserk.

I did try different tactics, still found it boring as fuck.
I can't really say anything about Dark Arisen bosses as I never delved into it.

I'll probably try it again some other time, now I'm playing stalker.

 

[DementedSheep]

Since you're only seeing what you want to see, let's make a list, shall we:

People who have played the game and thought Kalameet was a good boss fight:
hazabaza1 (he started the whole Kalameet discussion)
s69-5 (told you to stop comparing games to Dark Souls)
Twenty Ninjas (me)
Kilo24 ("Eh. I'd consider Dark Souls's boss fights as better overall")
Gormech ("Dark Souls Kalameet was better in my opinion just out of style")
Caramel Frappe ("Aahhhhhhh~ my favorite boss to fight against. Kalameet.")
Ragsnstitches ("The most epic 20 minutes in Dark Souls.")
XCell935 ("he ended up being my favorite dragon boss fight in video game history")
Church185 ("Dark Souls is such a thrilling game, and I can't wait for the sequel.")
grimner ("I'd still take most boss fights in Dark Souls over Dragon's Dogma's.")
Dethenger ("Yeah, Kalameet's not that bad. A sturdy boss fight, to be sure")


People who have (maybe) played the game and (maybe) thought Kalameet was a poor boss fight:
Phoenixmgs (you)
The_Lost_King ("not a huge fan of DS myself")
Cybyit ("Demon's Souls bosses were far better overall than Dark Souls")
DementedSheep ("it kinda feels like your just poking at him until he dies")

Of which, 4 like Dark Souls, 3 don't (none of them have played it), and one is neutral.

To clarify I don't think it was a bad boss fight really if I'm comparing it to boss fights in general. It just wasn't as good as the others in the DLC, was easier than I had expected from how he was talked about and for being an optional boss (I'm not trying to be brag, Manus and Artorias kicked my ass an embarrassing amount of times) and I didn't get the epic dragon killing vibe from him. I guess I just found his patterns easier to recognize than usual. Large bosses in general seem to end up being disappointing to me.

 

[PrimitiveJudge]

I am hope some mod out there changes this thread title to: Dark Souls vs Dragons Dogma. As much as I love and contributing to this online Olympic debate, Phoenixmgs is the only one repeating himself over and over.. it is no longer a argument/debate on what a dragon fight is all about. Without activating my Dark Soul powers, lets break this down to basics and get logical.

Dragon's Dogma: You are clearly a D&D player like I am, but in a LOGICAL D&D fight, you do not climb on dragons, you either provoke them to a fight of "smarts or strength". The DRAKE fight you encountered at first.. DRAKE not Dragon, just so you know, or might even remember on your rants, Yes grats, you encountered a fight on DRAGONS that Dark Souls very rarely brings to the table. Your the man dude. If dragons were a reality, hacking/slashing at the feet is all you can do, until it falls over and you THEN finish it off.

Dark Souls: is a very hard game for me, I am not stupid like you claim we are. Dark Souls proves that being on guard is only half the battle. Sure you can argue that everything is repetitive, but that way you are fueling the rage on this site, makes me think you never played Dark Souls at all, but sat around and watched a budy play it from start to finish on your account.

 

[endtherapture]

One criticism I do have of Dark Souls is that the enemies have no personality or intelligence. For some enemies I get this, but for others, including big boss creatures, they shouldn't just feel like a bunch of movesets you have to learn, they should feel like creatures with personalittyies.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I can make an educated guess that easy and hard mode are just extensions of the average difficulty.

And, I can make an educated guess that the intended level of challenge is not Normal for most games.

I didn't say Dark Souls is hard because of challenge modes. I said the base game experience, the one that was intended, is inherently hard and unfriendly. You can't argue that challenge modes in other games are harder because it defeats the context of the discussion, i.e. dark souls as a difficult game in general.

And the intended experience to give you a challenge for games like Bayonetta and Vanquish (and most games) are not the Normal difficulty. Like I said Vanquish's challenge levels are just scenarios from the main game but you have no checkpoints, they aren't made extra hard and they are set on the game's Normal difficulty to boot.

Spoiler: my response to Jim Sterling's video

Disclaimer: I am fully in favor of optional difficulty modes for any game that doesn't rely on challenge as a core game mechanic. Any game that allows you to quicksave, has checkpoints, doesn't use death as a learning experience, uses gameplay as a means to tell the story etcetc. would benefit from as many optional dificulty modes as possible.

THAT SAID. Dark Souls isn't any of those. The core function of Dark Souls is engagement: to activate your brain, to make you think of cunning ways to bypass situations, to see all the game has to offer and use it, to experiment and create your own setups for an optimal gameplay style. When engaged, the game is easy: you can summon someone to guide you all the way through the level including the boss. You can be effectively walked through by signs on the ground with a big enough community. You can take your time and get a few extra resources that will allow you to upgrade your items and make your life that much easier. It's only when you want to casually smack the puny monsters with your Giant Sword of Overcompensating without paying attention to what's going on that the game gets punishingly hard even if you're played the game a few times already and know all of its tricks. Engagement is the reason Dark Souls is a good game, and without it it would just be an average game with a crappy storyline and a broad array of useless combat mechanics. Because you're not paying attention to details, you're just using the same combat style you're used to, you're not adapting, you're not thinking. And you're not practicing.
An easy mode takes away the satisfaction of overcoming a difficult challenge and the core function that the game is designed around. Other games, like Devil May Cry 3, can have their selectable difficulty modes. I disagree in Dark Souls' case.

And I couldn't give a rat's ass what you have to say about it. But if you call me a bigot again you're going straight to the mods.

I didn't call you a bigot, Jim Sterling did or at least implied as such, and I'm only agreeing with his opinion. An easy mode for Dark Souls wouldn't change your experience of the game one bit. If there were still cheat devices like GameShark and someone beat Dark Souls with it, it wouldn't affect me in any way.

And your explanation just goes back into hyperbole and elitism. LMAO that Dark Souls activates your brain. You can do the same thing for well over 90% of the game's enemies. I didn't adapt and I used the same combat style the whole game, and the game was a breeze. I was actually punished for practicing as I practiced the riposte in the Undead Burg only to realize it's rather useless, it's just too risky to use over simple blocking and attacking. Whereas in Bayonetta, not dodge offsetting is what is too risky. Just go casually button mashing into Bayonetta and you'll die too.

Your assumption that an easy mode will take away the satisfaction of overcoming a challenge is misguided as well. It may be true for you, but for other players that aren't very good, they will still find a solid challenge on Easy.

Your idea of an "average gamer" was based on online shooters and you completely failed to take into account that different people play different games.

No, I didn't. I just used online shooters as an example. Go play any online game in any genre and you'll find a majority of the people don't understand how to play the game and don't learn from their mistakes. Most players don't understand the basics of LoL for example. I used shooters because of how easy the basics are and even then people don't "get" it.

Former Street Fighter pros and current Grandmaster league Starcraft 2 players aren't good at games to begin with. Gotcha. Maybe I'll tell them that and we'll have a good laugh. Then again, "random guy on the internet said you suck at games" might not be important enough to talk to them about.

Online games are all about being able to quickly learn and adapt. I very much doubt Street Fighter or Starcraft pros had trouble with Dark Souls unless they aren't actually pros. I could understand them struggling at the start but once they adjust and get the mechanics down (as both SF and SC are very much about the mechanics), they should have no problem breezing through the game.

The burden of proof lies on the one who makes the claim.

Send over one of those SF and SC pros you know, I'll have them owning in Dark Souls within 30 minutes.

I forgot the entire context of this. Ah, yes, you argued that the levels would be even more atmospheric if they were empty. Well, cool story bro.

I didn't say the levels would be MORE atmospheric, I said they would still be atmospheric without enemies. All the enemies in Dark Souls makes it less atmospheric for me as there isn't enough downtime for the enemies to have such an impact on the atmosphere. All your best horror movies and games have those calm periods between the "action" to build up the suspense whereas Dark Souls does not, it's just fight, fight, fight. The buildup is the most important aspect.

It kinda depends on how good it is and how poorly it's executed, doesn't it.

If a boss is supposed to have the option to defeat it by hitting its weak spot, but you literally can't get to its weak spot due to design issues, then yes as it wouldn't just be poorly executed but just plain broken. But just because you can poke the Demon's Souls' bosses to death may be poor design but not broken design. GTA is an example of a poor concept executed extremely well but it's still only as good as its concept.

Most bosses in Demon's Souls are indeed bosses you have to poke to death.

How many times do I have to quote this?

Also, and I may be in the minority here, but Demon's Souls bosses were far better overall than Dark Souls which are largely slugfests. In Demon's every boss was more like a puzzle to be solved, and also it can kill you in two or three hits. Even the slugfest bosses of it (Phalanx, Old Hero, Flamelurker) had tricks to them like the Old Hero was blind and hunted you down by sound, so you could hide your footsteps by wearing the Thief's Ring making him go from this aggressive and agile monster into him blindly walking the hall, occasionally slicing between pillars.

Flamelurker didn't really have such tricks to him, sadly, other than the fact that if you pumped your flame resistance with certain gear you could halve his damage and effectively negate his AoE bursts.