Obama calls for mandatory government service.

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SilentHunter7

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I never said the government should pick a person's job, I just said 2 years of service. Could be Local, State, Federal, or in the Armed Forces. It might also be more beneficial if people were allowed to wait until they finished their undergrad studies.
 

Alex_P

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SilentHunter7 post=18.68581.636233 said:
I never said the government should pick a person's job, I just said 2 years of service. Could be Local, State, Federal, or in the Armed Forces. It might also be more beneficial if people were allowed to wait until they finished their undergrad studies.
What actual role could this big bunch of mostly-untrained young people fulfill, though?

I think we're much better off with actually trained police (and with the current system of mixed professional and volunteer firefighters and EMTs).

I think a calcified, bloated bureaucracy full of people who have significant job experience is better than a less-calcified but even-more-bloated bureaucracy full of people who don't.

I think making a bunch of young people into teachers for a year or two would just cause further damage to our education system. One of the main reasons it's so fucked up in the first place is that American culture sees "teacher" as a position with very low qualifications. We act like any college grad can teach. Good teachers are not easily replaceable. This whole attitude of "we'd rather pay a shit teacher a shit salary than give good salaries to good teachers" is exactly what's rotting public education in the first place.

So, what would the army of untrained youths be doing?

-- Alex
 

SilentHunter7

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Alex_P post=18.68581.636307 said:
SilentHunter7 post=18.68581.636233 said:
I never said the government should pick a person's job, I just said 2 years of service. Could be Local, State, Federal, or in the Armed Forces. It might also be more beneficial if people were allowed to wait until they finished their undergrad studies.
What actual role could this big bunch of mostly-untrained young people fulfill, though?

I think we're much better off with actually trained police (and with the current system of mixed professional and volunteer firefighters and EMTs).

I think a calcified, bloated bureaucracy full of people who have significant job experience is better than a less-calcified but even-more-bloated bureaucracy full of people who don't.

I think making a bunch of young people into teachers for a year or two would just cause further damage to our education system. One of the main reasons it's so fucked up in the first place is that American culture sees "teacher" as a position with very low qualifications. We act like any college grad can teach. Good teachers are not easily replaceable. This whole attitude of "we'd rather pay a shit teacher a shit salary than give good salaries to good teachers" is exactly what's rotting public education in the first place.

So, what would the army of untrained youths be doing?

-- Alex
Of course you should never give a badge to some guy off the street and tell him to fight crime. That's precisely the reason I said kids should be allowed to do their studies before being required to serve. You're right, you cant just throw unqualified people into jobs.

That's why most police and fire companies have 6-8 week training periods. When my dad applied for a firefighter job, he just had his high-school diploma. They sent him to "hack" for a month, and graduated with honors. 10 years later, he's the captain of his own piece. I can only imagine other jobs have significant on the job training.

What I'm trying to say is that the way I'd implement it, save the fact that you'd have to do it, it wouldn't be terribly different from today. If there's an opening, and you want it, and you're qualified, you'd get the job. You just have to find something you want to do for 2 years. It shouldn't be a problem; Everyone can do something.
 

H0ncho

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I'll be drafted into the royal guard for 12 months the 7th of October.

Personally I don't mind so much because I have absolutely no idea what to do with this year anyways (no idea what to study etc.) and weapons and military equipment sorta turns me on :)O) but morally speaking it is reprehensible. I mean, it is essentially stealing one year of a persons life, which he wanted to use for his own purposes, and then using that for your own purposes.

Economically speaking it is inefficient for the reasons Alex mentioned (using many untrained people to do what a few trained people could do is poor economics. Especially considering that the draftees could use the years of mandatory service to become trained themselves at various occupations).

Politically it is extremely dangerous: The establishment of a paramilitary force has traditionally been a step towards tyranny.

I also want to remind people that being in the army does not autmatically make you honorable. Actually the most atrocious acts in history has been committed by armies - and the horrible sexual harassment rate in the American military should disprove the notion than military people necessarily are good.
 

Poyer

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nationalism is never a good thing, and the states dont need a bigger army than now, they have the largest one so what could possibly make then need any more? nothing at all.

it would be hilarius if obama became the new hitler though. ive waited for a few years now for something really bad to happen over there in the states, its just a matter of time.
 

SilentHunter7

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Poyer post=18.68581.637274 said:
nationalism is never a good thing, and the states dont need a bigger army than now, they have the largest one so what could possibly make then need any more? nothing at all.

it would be hilarius if obama became the new hitler though. ive waited for a few years now for something really bad to happen over there in the states, its just a matter of time.
That's not very nice. :(
 

Alex_P

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Poyer post=18.68581.637274 said:
ive waited for a few years now for something really bad to happen over there in the states, its just a matter of time.
So, err, I take it you don't watch TV then?

-- Alex
 

John Galt

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Poyer post=18.68581.637274 said:
it would be hilarius if obama became the new hitler though. ive waited for a few years now for something really bad to happen over there in the states, its just a matter of time.
[/quote]

Vote for the lulz good citizen.

I think Obama's got the potential to be the next Hitler. He's got the oratory skills, he's able to motivate large sums of the population(I myself fell under the Obama spell for a while), and he's got the nationalistic policies to boot. While considerably more leftist than Hitler(odds are we won't have any of the atrocities of the Nazi regime), what we will have will be an extremely charismatic man in control of arguably the most powerful nation in the world. Whether this will breed a new Hitler I don't know. But I do have a pretty strong feeling that should the American populace become even more politically apathetic than it already is, then in the coming years, we will be ripe for a fascist coming in to rape and pillage.
 

Limos

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I'm not a fightere, I don't want to go into any combat situation. I definately don't want to get drafted. If they start drafting people I'm headed for Canada.

Hell, I have my passport, if they start talking about a draft I'll just move out of the country.
 

TomNook

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Bongo Bill post=18.68581.634048 said:
Not that compulsory military service has been universally detrimental to modern democracies. Israel, for example, has compulsory military service for all able-bodied citizens, and Switzerland has something similar. However, I would venture that neither of those nations have the unique challenges in maintaining morale that would face the United States' military. Nevertheless, those concerned about the possibility of such an occurrence might want to look into the rationale and consequences of these countries' decisions.

This has been an educational post. Have a nice day.

About Israel, its not military training, its more like summer camp where you learn to kill people.
 

werepossum

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John Galt post=18.68581.637556 said:
Poyer post=18.68581.637274 said:
it would be hilarius if obama became the new hitler though. ive waited for a few years now for something really bad to happen over there in the states, its just a matter of time.

Vote for the lulz good citizen.

I think Obama's got the potential to be the next Hitler. He's got the oratory skills, he's able to motivate large sums of the population(I myself fell under the Obama spell for a while), and he's got the nationalistic policies to boot. While considerably more leftist than Hitler(odds are we won't have any of the atrocities of the Nazi regime), what we will have will be an extremely charismatic man in control of arguably the most powerful nation in the world. Whether this will breed a new Hitler I don't know. But I do have a pretty strong feeling that should the American populace become even more politically apathetic than it already is, then in the coming years, we will be ripe for a fascist coming in to rape and pillage.
I actually think McCain is more nationalistic than Obama, who spoke in Berlin about breaking down the walls between countries. And both candidates are going to start a massive flood of wealth from America to the undeveloped world. (Evidently one can fight global warming by enriching foreign millionaires and dictators and by moving manufacturing from regulation-rich USA to regulation-poor Communist China. Go figure.)

American government has been steadily getting more fascist, in the old sense of the word, government telling private citizens what they can (and will) do with their property. To some degree that's probably inevitable as our numbers grow, since the more people, the more likely your intended land use will annoy someone. But I think to a larger degree, government responds to what its citizens demand as much as to what politicians demand. We've become a nation that expects government to fulfill our needs, and as Benjamin Franklin said, a government large enough to give you everything you want is also large enough to take away everything you have. (Or something like that.) Compulsory government service is just another step along that road.
 

mshcherbatskaya

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I'm not sure about other countries, but Americans through around words like fascist, communist, etc. without really knowing what they mean. Obama is not a Hitler (thank you Godwin), he's a Roosevelt or a Kennedy (Robert, not Jack, IMO), with all the good and bad that implies, depending on your political views.

People have been throwing around the words "fascist" and "communist" without paying much attention to the actual definitions of those words. Now, admittedly, my definition comes from a left-aligned source, but this is also the academic definition I used when studying WWII Japan in college.

Fascism is a "form of far-right populism. Fascism glorifies national, racial, or cultural unity and collective rebirth while seeking to purge imagined enemies, and attacks both revolutionary movements and liberal pluralism in favor of militarized, totalitarian mass politics." It's important to note that fascism was formulated in direct response to communism, as a means of driving out "Bolsheviks." The idea was that the government was going to unite, chase out the corrupting elements that had lead the country away from an unrealistically idealized past (pre-WWI for the Germans, Roman Empire for the Italians), and then return control of capital to the cleansed and re-aligned citizenry.

Communism, on the other hand, tends to villainize rather than idealize the past. Mass naationalization of ALL capital, industry, and resources is intended from the start to be permanent, and redistribution of wealth is the primary stated goal. This is as opposed to fascism which nationalizes resources it perceives as being necessary to its goal and then cuts them loose when the goal is achieved (which it never is, because fascism requires a perceived enemy to maintain unity, but never mind about that now.)

Socialism has undergone some redefinition in the last 50 years. Initially, it was simply a pre-communism. However, no communist regime has ever actually gone through the socialist phase, so socialism has been for all practical purposes divorced from communism, and is considered a steady-state form of government all its own, as seen to various degrees is several European countries. Now, socialism is "a political philosophy advocating substantial public involvement, through government ownership, in the means of production and distribution." Note, it is NOT complete nationalization, and it is not essentially defensive in nature like fascism. It is, however, unwieldy, vulnerable to misdirection, and not particularly suited, in my opinion, to a population with a lot of diversity of cultural background, economic class, and political opinion.

Obama is, if anything, a socialist, and please note, HIS PROPOSED NATIONAL SERVICE IS NOT MILITARY in nature. And Obama is not a socialist, no, really, not even close. Believe me, I know more than a few actual socialists (most of them are anarchists too, by the way, which makes for some interesting ideology) and Obama ain't one of them.

The closest thing we have to fascism in the US is the Bush administration, which has gotten around the hassle of nationalizing resources by aligning itself with national and transnational corporations that have virtual monopolies on the resources a fascist government would normally have to go out and seize for itself. And Bush is a looooooooong way from being a Mussolini and would never approach the stature of the Big H even if he were made president-for-life. Vladimir Putin's Russia seems to be settling quite comfortably into a classical fascist state, which is kind of scary.

None of these terms is particularly useful in discussing the current presidential candidates. All they do is exaggerate and polarize debate so that no productive discussion can continue without being derailed.

To use a phrase that routinely gets thrown at me in other threads, people need to calm the fuck down so we can talk about pros and cons of what is actually being proposed, rather than than blowing it into Godwinian proportions. Obama isn't Hitler. Neither is Bush. Hitler arose out of a combination of one of the most brutal economic depressions the modern world has ever seen, and the battered pride of a nation that had just lost an incredibly destructive war and then been subjected to a harsh and humiliating peace treaty. The US isn't going that direction any time soon, and if you think Archer Daniels Midland or Exxon-Mobile or ClearChannel would ever permit anything resembling anything like fascism, socialism, or communism to take root, you are being alarmist and silly.

Do I like a lot of what either candidate is proposing? No. I love my country but I fear my government, for a lot of the same reasons that werepossum does, from the opposite political perspective, but I'm not running around like a cat with a tin-can tied to it's tail about it. And I say the exact thing to my fellow lefties, by the way. Obama is not a terrorist. Bush is not the devil. Everybody just quit freaking out and talk.
 

Poyer

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Alex_P post=18.68581.637533 said:
Poyer post=18.68581.637274 said:
ive waited for a few years now for something really bad to happen over there in the states, its just a matter of time.
So, err, I take it you don't watch TV then?

-- Alex
well honestly, i stopped watching TV a few years ago, but i live in sweden so it doesnt apply really. i did hear about FOX being used for propaganda though, hence the hitler refernece in my post. what specific horrible thing are you refering to Alex? maybe the war... but that happens every what... 20/30 years or so.

maybe they are all to numb from TV to rebell...
 

Panayjon

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I like Heinlein's idea of government as proposed in Starship Troopers (just forget the movie ever happened for the sake of this point) in that everyone can go about their daily lives as easy as we do now. However, if you want to effect the government, law, and the general welfare of society (right to vote) you have to prove yourself first through government service. Mind you I don't think it has to be military service per say, but something to prove that you are socially responsible and disciplined. You can still be financially successful and live a very good life if you don't obtain the right, but you've lost the right to complain when something disagreeable happens.

Also, on a more down to Earth note, regardless of who becomes president... we're not electing a king, we're electing a representative with a lot of power, not all of it. Its called checks and balances. Look it up.

Furthermore, no offense to the other non-American countries, but the USA is really really big. Many people can point to the wonders of other countries like Sweden or the UK but you've got to remember. They're comparatively small. Much easier to control. Well, Australia is pretty big but [insert culturally insensitive joke here].
 

Eyclonus

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I think Heinlein believed that the best form of government was a non-discrimantory facist state.

Australia won't implement a draft ever again. We got screwed badly at Gallipoli and Vietnam. Everytime people talk about conscrition everyone starts screaming Gallipoli and waving flags.
Although thats probably 'cos our military history is either being used as bullet magnets by Britain, or as placeholders for the USA.

Its difficult to compare as the majority of countries that have some form of compulsory national service have very different cultures to the USA.
 

Panayjon

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Eyclonus post=18.68581.639173 said:
I think Heinlein believed that the best form of government was a non-discrimantory facist state.

Australia won't implement a draft ever again. We got screwed badly at Gallipoli and Vietnam. Everytime people talk about conscrition everyone starts screaming Gallipoli and waving flags.
Although thats probably 'cos our military history is either being used as bullet magnets by Britain, or as placeholders for the USA.

Its difficult to compare as the majority of countries that have some form of compulsory national service have very different cultures to the USA.
Honestly I've never read any other Heinlein books so I can't say. Though from looking at Wikipedia (lol "research") he's had a broad range of political views throughout each of his books. To quote from the article which I remind might be changed at any moment:

Within the framework of his science fiction stories Heinlein repeatedly integrated recognizable social themes: The importance of individual liberty and self-reliance, the obligation individuals owe to their societies, the influence of organized religion on culture and government, and the tendency of society to repress non-conformist thought...

... For example, his 1959 novel Starship Troopers was regarded as advocating militarism and to some extent fascism, although many passages in the book disparage the inflexibility and stupidity of a purely militaristic mindset.