Objectification? Sexualization? What do the ladies think?

[Legion]

If you disagree, feel free to tell me how a chainmail bikini and a photo models/anorexia patients body can be constituted to represent a female power fantasy in works of fiction primarily focused on physical conflict.

Because some women like looking sexy and not everybody cares about fiction being realistic or believable?

They are called fantasies for a reason. The sheer amount of women who enjoy cosplaying as these characters suggests that they consider them to be positive, unless you are suggesting that they do it for male attention.

I am not disagreeing that the designs are primarily designed with a male audience in mind and that they probably weren't designed as a "female power fantasy". But to suggest that they cannot be constituted as a female power fantasy, just because they are unrealistic/unbelievable or designed with a male audience in mind, does not make much sense as an argument.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Its not a strawman at all. A Strawman is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

I've refuted no position, i've demonstrated that feminism is not a synonym for gender equality. But i'll be happy to see where you think i went wrong, if you would like to refute my statement in a meaningful way.

Only you haven't demonstrated anything, you've merely made some baseless claims. These claims are also gross misrepresentations of what feminism is. So yeah, it is a strawman. Just because you doesn't outright attack it doesn't mean you haven't made it. Nice try at confounding though.

I am not disagreeing that the designs are primarily designed with a male audience in mind and that they probably weren't designed as a "female power fantasy". But to suggest that they cannot be constituted as a female power fantasy, just because they are unrealistic/unbelievable or designed with a male audience in mind, does not make much sense as an argument.

Oh, I am not suggesting that the characters as the full composition of their parts isn't a female power fantasy. I am suggesting that the main reason they have the visual design they do is not because it appeals to women, but because it appeals to men. As such it is not the equivalent of a male power fantasy (like Conan) because male power fantasies tend to be fully designed to cater to men, while most female characters tend to be at least partially designed to sexually appeal to men to. That's not to say that Red Sonja, for example, isn't a female power fantasy in her own right, but we must be aware that her visual appearance is not necessarily meant to appeal to women (in fact, Red Sonja was a spin-off to Conan and for all intents and purposes was marketed towards the same, male, audience).

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Nice strawman. I wonder, Mr. Lane, have you ever actually read any feminist literature, attended a seminar on feminism or gender studies? Or do you just get all your ideas on feminism from spearhead and reddit? Because none of what you said "feminism requires" is actually what feminism 'requires'.

Lets ask a woman about this. Lets see what does she think about mainstream feminism (not the radical one) by quoting famous people that EVERYONE accepts as part of Feminism:


Nice "Not True Scotsman" strawman right there, yo.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

But were these characters really designed with females in mind? Kratos may be wearing very little, but he isn't exactly handsome or sensual by any means. He doesn't have an ounce of romanticism or sexuality in his character. Females wearing that little, on the other hand, quite clearly have sexuality in mind.

As opposed to being CLEARLY historically accurate to everything that the Greek do? nope, it has to be about sexuality.

Spoiler: Greek Naked People Gallery

If you are Greek and you aren't naked, then you are doing something wrong.

 

[bigfatcarp93]

Only wanting a female's view on a subject...

equally not alright, just putting that out there.

Erm... how so? How is wanting to ask a woman's opinion "not alright?" I don't think discrimination is really a problem when it's something as trivial and practical and whose point-of-view you want on a subject...

well what about gay or bi men? i think they're just as qualified as a hetero or bi woman

It's not about who's qualified, it's about who OP wanted to ask.

 

[Ikasury]

snip

OOOOH!! this is fun!!

okay, i hate to sound like a -dick- but quite honestly there's a difference between the hyper-feminist portrayal of a 'kickass woman' and say, a normal woman would, these supposed 'empowered' woman i put into a categorey called 'chicks' because that's all they really are, just 'chicks', they flounce around making it a point to go on and on and on about I AM WOMAN TREAT ME EQUAL when actually that statement kinda makes it impossible... personally i HATE cosmo-chicks, or anything to do with the stepford-style of teaching girls to be... 'girls'... and then trying to make that 'empowering'? its brainwashing and media/social-things just imposing another 'standard' on someone... personally, i've never worn makeup, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO WEAR MAKEUP!! yes, that's shocking, but we 'natural' women do exist... what i do for my own sense of 'style' i do because 'I' find it attractive and think i look good wearing it, not because someone ELSE does... also as a weird point, all those 'chicks' i've met in my life who like to do all this... i dunno, stepford-cosmo junk trying to 'get' guys, always ***** and complain when all they attract are assholes, while me over in my nature-corner get proposition by men/women/EVERYTHING and i'm not TRYING to attract anyone, so lets just say that all opinions on... anything, are skewed... but this leads validly to me that all that 'cosmo' BS and caring about 'appearances' is worthless *shrugs*

alright, you've worked in 'female-dominated' workspaces? huh? that's funny... i'm being serious, that's funny to me XD i've done nothing but worked in 'male-dominated' workspaces where once they figured out i wasn't a 'chick' and i wasn't going to 'sue them' they figured it was fair game to hit on me constantly then get pissy when i would constantly rebuke them... and if they weren't hitting on me they were talking the most crudest and descriptive ways about women they 'like' (this being subjective as i don't think they ever remembered names, and just body parts) and whom they've 'done'... i think us social introverts on forums just don't 'think' like these people, whereas you had to work with 'chicks' and i had to work with 'dudes' and neither were of the same quality... i will not deny that women think of sex more then men, its how we're wired as far as i'm concerned, and being raised by cougars in a matriarch that was my 'family' that's not something i will ever deny... how i gained complete 'apathy' for discussing my preferences is beyond me, but i've met like ONE other woman like me whom we just wanted to sit around playing video games and NOT talk about who was doing who... i blame media for making this some 'big thing' honestly...

media is TERRIBLE at T&A, its like that's the only thing worth posting nowadays, like lets take Game of Thrones, the 'new' people who've never read the books (like me) for the most part i see going for the show because it had quite honestly 'gratuitous sex' all throughout seasons 1 and 2, flip over to 3 now, and i've actually become 'glad' they stopped with all the pointless T&A because honestly, i like PLOT!! okay, not PLOT!! but actually the interactions between the characters, i think the ACTORS are f*cking FABULOUS!! the small details and nuances they portray are freakin' awesome!! and while maybe no one around you likes Johnny Depp for acting, i do, cause i sure as heck don't find him attractive .-.

back to the point of 'kickass females', the ones you see mostly, who are albeit more 'annoying' as you put it, if they aren't 'chicks', which for the love of all the is unholy PLEASE let them not be chicks, are typically a 'Vasquez', THEY ARE DESIGNED THAT WAY!! because they're snarky-butch-esque male-proxy women, i love Michelle Rodriguez and will watch any movie with her in it just because she is the greatest 'Vasquez' next to the original, but where OG 'Vasquez' (i actually don't know the actresses name T.T) was more 'butch' cause that was the thing at the time, Michelle and any of her incarnations... ISN'T, she's still definitely female and pulls off that much more, but she still, as what's innate in that character, pretty much a dude with tits, but the contrast between the two shows how much the 'male factor' has shrunk in that character type and i like to think it means we've garnered some 'progress', the 'Vasquez' CAN be sexy~ in a womanly way... but its usually counter-balanced by assloads more snark, still... *snorts*

and believe me, I KNOW just how effectively guys can turn ANYTHING into some sex-innuendo, or just blunt sex-parody, why do you think Rule 34 exists? humans as a whole are hardwired to make sex a priority because its the driving force of our existence, to make the next generation, women for WHATEVER REASON have viewed stating and accepting this as openly 'bad', with 'help' from guys, for generations... clinically i can do this because i set my brain to 'logic', but if you asked me what i find 'sexy' i'd probably just glare at you to go away, while a guy asked the same thing would give a generic auto-response of 'tits' and/or 'ass' because that's the 'dude' answer, but that too could be completely wrong and he's only saying it because its expected of him... despite our 'advances' in society and skewing of socially acceptable things, we all feel this 'pressure' to just say what is most commonly expect, either in the guy's sense to affirm he's a guy, or in my sense of 'its easier to say nothing' and get away with it... by the way, engineers, good god engineers... the things people can come up with with duct-tape...

now as for your question of why i love Aya so much, and i'm sorry, i've never played those games, i'll look in to it :3 now you said you only played the 2nd and 3rd Birthday... *sigh* you really should play the first one, that's where its the best in my opinion, 2nd i DID love because it had better graphics and stuff, but the overarching hamhandedness of 'hooking her up' kinda irritated me and partially reduced my Heroine to typical 'chick', but i enjoyed that they didn't depreciate her too much but figured out 'fanservice' was the way to go -sigh-

okay, bigass **************SPOILERS!!!****************** warning cause i may or may not go into them, especially for 3rd Birthday as well, speaking of 'Aya' in 3rd is kinda the big-awesome-OMG-WTF!! of the game... yes...

in PE1, Aya is a rookie cop, her partner is the older 'black-guy' of the force, and everyone pretty much treats her as such, as a cop she's not just 'that one chick on the force' there are actually quite a few female models in the cop-shop not that you'd really notice unless you 'cared' about that, Cathy being the other one primarily doing 'normal-cop-stuff'... the point is here's a woman in a predominantly consider-male job force, you've got that one annoying guy that always hits on her, her boss that just treats everyone like crap cause they're lower then him, insert-weird-tech, and whatever else people to fluff out 'cop-shop', and her partner Daniel... i love her relationship with Daniel as never once is it 'hinted' in anyway like a whole lot of OTHER-THINGS there may be something 'else', its just they're partners as a 'work-deal' like regular bromance partners should be, we don't even have the whole 'racist' thing that would be obvious to poke at since its a Big-Black-Guy and a small-(Relatively)-White-Chick (That's also another point that you only realize if you read everything, her mom was japanese, her dad was french, thus the name 'Aya Brea') the point is, its 'normal'... just this setup, no over-the-top shenanigans about this or that, no one making a deal she's a 'woman', its just 'normal' and nobody cares...

lets look at the 'romance' thing, since EVERYTHING involving a woman, or MC period, must have 'romantic interests', let's see first up is that 'dude' she was on a date with to the opera in the opening scene... yea once he p*ssies-out and Aya goes all 'cop-mode' he's never mentioned again except from i believe some other insert-cop like 'wow, that guy was a sissy, sorry Aya' *insert me snorting* so he's done and over with, because he was apparently some 'rich dude' that thought she was 'hot' and took her out, she just wanted to go see the opera and the dude offered, points for non-aware-use-of-sexy-for-purposes... guy number 2, that gun-guy, his primary function throughout the whole game is to GIVE YOU GUNS!! and also be that one guy that openly flirts with the Heroine, which she recognizes in dialogue but just 'does not care about' YAY! swavee-dude who thinks he's hot-shit just got blown off by normal-woman who doesn't care... she's still friends with the guy because they work together, and even joke about his flirting and as you play you start to think its all just a 'joke' between the two and not really serious-serious until about the end-end when everyone almost thought she was dead... THRID RUNNER-UP!! Maeda, the quirky-nerdy-japanese-walking-Deus-Ex-Machina-GUY! whom for whatever reason makes an appearance in 3rd Birthday because i think they finally remembered 'oh yea, New York, 'Aya' was here before and knew people', his affections are mostly scientific but grow into that nerd-romance kind of way, also i think he's another call-back to the book, but the point is while she 'recognizes' these 'options' she doesn't DROP EVERYTHING for ROMANCE like you see with whatever other Heroines, in fact you can tell she's 'interested' but just 'doesn't care' as at the moment SAVING THE WORLD is 'kinda' important...

looks... she wears jeans, a white shirt, and a black leather jacket... nothing hanging off, nothing 'open', in fact the 'sexiest' thing she wears in the first game is that black slip at the beginning, and even that isn't 'overly sexual' its just 'looking good' (because you damn well know you do as a woman!!)

personality, she's confident, not in that overly 'i'm going to blow up everything and laugh' kind of way but in a more humble 'this is what i have to do', she's not even completely 'sure' she CAN do it, but is resigned TO do it because due to 'plot' she's the ONLY ONE that can... if anyone were to ATTEMPT to back her up, THEY BURST INTO FLAMES!! after the opening scenes, WHERE AN OPERA HOUSE FULL OF PEOPLE BURSTS INTO FLAME and she's the only one that survives, she doesn't just go all 'hero' on it and actually has bouts of 'HOLY F*CK I'M THE ONLY ONE THAT SURVIVED' and while they show up she keeps going, either by instinct or duty and as a player you don't get the feeling its strictly because 'plot' says so... by the end of the first game, and what shows a lot better in the second one, AND HOLY F*CK DO I LOVE WHAT THEY DID IN THE 3RD ONE!! is that from her experience in the first game, SHE DOES CHANGE, where before she was just another cop, now she's this inhuman super-being, she had to KILL what was effectively the 'mother' of all Mitochondria, the Ultimate Being/Savior, and if you beat EX mode, her sister (who died in a car-crash when she was little along with their mom) and that's not to mention all the OTHER PEOPLE that died from the incident... she effectively isolates herself out of 'guilt', the concept of 'not being human' even though she still IS, and resigning herself to in the end effectively serve as Humanity's only weapon against NMCs because of who/what she is... she's a goddamn badass and nobody else knows that, and she doesn't flaunt it... but where as 2nd showed a lot of her 'humanity' in my opinion, maternal instincts, actually falling for that one guy (which even though i don't 'like' the emphasis on romance was kinda like a reward for her) and dealing with monsters and enemies that aren't 'some other woman' like most female-protagonists are pitted against... 'because only women fight women', yea right...

now, i know this may not have been a trait that most people picked up, but HOLY F*CK!! 3RD BIRTHDAY!! kinda spelled it out in bright neon colors... one of the most 'human' things about Aya was her concept of 'self-loathing', she was literally pitted up against 'what she could become' with original EVE and the horrors of the Ark and 3rd birthday pretty much proved that fear... now, i don't think you picked this up while playing, but from the moment i started that game i knew 'something' was off with 'Aya', personality-wise it just wasn't quite 'her', and while amnesia tried to explain that away it was the nuances of her character that tipped me off (not just the one glaring problem i have with the whole game not mentioning MITOCHONDRIA ONCE!!) so at the end....

****************************************SPOILERS!!SPOILERS!!SPOILERS!!**************************************

... and its revealed that 'who' we'd been playing all along was Eve, as in the little girl from PE2, the EVE/AYA clone, only with possession of Real-Aya's body... i was ECSTATIC!! one, cause i was right, and two because it showed Eve growing up and pretty much taking on Aya's role, but where as Aya had self-loathing and a grew a dissonance to the world because of what she was and could become, Eve was still mostly a kid who looked up to her like a hero and just wanted to be as 'strong' as she was... Aya's truest desire was to simply 'not exist', this came out a lot in the 2nd game with her trying to hide her powers, and being 'horrified' that her Mitochondria was the entire REASON behind the Ark, it just added to her justifiable self-loathing, part of her that makes her strong is her sense to protect, why she was a cop to begin with, and i can't just call it 'duty' because its not as 'blind' as that, else she would'a stayed a cop i think, but in a way, 3rd Birthday came down to her pulling a jesus moment, negating her own existence so protect others and let the world survive without her... she became what she feared to protect Eve from ironically big-EVE (as in 3rd Birthday's incarnation of EVE from the first game, which i laughed at cause 'she' took over a dude for that one XD) then once that was over, poof! i don't know about you but i CRIED having to shoot my childhood hero... because i knew it was FOR THE GREATER GOOD!! TT.TT

i have NEVER cared so much about a character, nor seen it done so RIGHT in just small nuances, because once Real-Aya showed up, i was squealing, because it was HER, not Eve trying to play her, HER... Accept no substitutes!!

****************************************SPOILERS!!OVER!!SPOILERS!!OVER!!SPOILERS!!**************************************

so, to be honest, its not that Aya is a WOMAN that makes her good character, its that that DOES NOT MATTER and she's a GREAT CHARACTER!! the fact she's a woman just adds to it, and quite honestly, if i had to say i had a childhood 'hero' that i ever wanted to grow up to be, its not Ripley, its not Vasquez, it sure-as-hell not Wonder-Woman or any of those 'chicks'... its mother-f*cking AYA BREA!!

is she the greatest feminist character ever? i have no freaking idea... i just know to ME she is one of the GREATEST characters ever, female part i can flick off and not care about, but it certainly makes it nice...

GOD this is way too long =.=

 

[Ikasury]

guh... at this point titillation is really just the easy way to make money, gender aside, its just there to make it all 'look' pretty so you'll buy it and they don't care after they have your money...

You know, when when not only Indie games but FREEWARE has better plots and gameplay than your AAA products, then you should probably rethink your profession.

Case in point: a Freeware that its a combination of "System Shock" and "Deus Ex" in gameplay, with graphics of "Another World" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/AnotherWorld), and a plot that deconstructs the "lone warrior against all odds" with healthy doses of PTSD on a girl forced to survive in a dead world. That game is IJI.
http://www.remar.se/daniel/games.php

HELLO~ i'll DEFINITELY have to look into this but yep, i've been getting this 'depressing' feeling from AAA games, they just don't live up to more then a cash-cow from what i've seen, or played... two things that greatly disappointed me lately? Dishonored and Injustice, i'd throw in Defiance but i didn't get that for 'plot' or 'characters', i got it to strictly blow up hellbugs XD

i should look more into Indie games...

 

[Eddie the head]

I think male characters aren't nearly attractive enough & wear far too much clothing. Men will never stop objectifying women, so let's make the playing field even.

It's not "natural" to objectify people. It's a form of aggression caused by emotional and sexual insecurity and has no place in a healthy society.

Emotional and sexual insecurity are natural things. Regardless that would the an "appeal to nature" fallacy. Yeah it is natural, but the fact that it is natural doesn't mean it's how it should be. Being sick is also a natural thing, that doesn't mean it's good.

I guess what I am saying is your both wrong.

 

[Ikasury]

OP, Does the opinion of a gay man can help?

OH GOD!! THAT'S HILARIOUS!! XD i love my gay-bros~ (especially since my bro IS gay and so is my best friend XD) and its actually kinda funny to try and pick out the nuance differences between what Gay-Men want to see and Straight-Women (me often subjugated to the role of 'it who will drag you idiots away~ because ITS A TRAP!') but let me slip off my 'mom' gear, and go for a bit more 'blunt'...

Gay-guy gets annoyed by the full body shot? hmm... really? that's actually funny, i think that's just a male hard-wiring, as letsee, both primary Gays in my life (the above) and lets take my straight-hubby's opinion, and yea, both categories would want 'cut-up' versions, be they of men or women respectively... while me, the sole-straight-female with 'woman-brain' actually WANTS the full body shot, i find it more appealing honestly... getting a look at the whole package instead of just gratuitous T&A areas, though for 'guys' i suppose its D&A areas XD if i consult my other sole-straight-female-gamer whom falls into the same category as me, she's the same, and all the lesbians i knew DEFINITELY like the full-body angle over just 'boobs'... so that just may be a 'brain-thing' in gender differences as it doesn't seem to affect our sexual preferences... hmm...

another funny example i guess in a main stream thing? Dr. Manhattan :3 I LOVED WATCHMEN!! and i was so HAPPY they left him full-on naked, not because he looked good as an ethereal-god-human but because it was part of his persona, my straight-husband who read the comics afterwards had no problem with it, yet both of us got an earful from gay-guys? huh? wha? even a few straight-chicks i dealt with thought it was 'too much' and i just had to tilt my head 'but its... Dr. Manhattan? its not a 'thing' to him... he's just 'naked'? so?' but i guess since it wasn't put in the perspective to BE sexy it was bad? *throws up bowl of popcorn* i swear, people~

and when i say 'looked good' i mean from an artistic stand point, Dr. Manhattan looks 'good', in design and function, he's not overly muscled nor too 'shabby' and really rather modest... unlike, say, Superman~ does that make me want to jump his naked-ness? no... not, really? ? its just an appreciation of someone comfortable as they are...

and ugh... don't get me started on the 'twi-hard' cinema *shutters* i'll admit Captain America looked GOOD (yes THAT kind of good) but Thor or Twilight? pfft... bitches, please~ why the difference? i have no idea... i can't blame 'jiggle-physics' like guys can XD

so i suppose all i grabbed from this? guys (straight or gay) like T&A, women like 'full-body'~ XD now i want to get an Asari version of this, i'd take 'full-body' of that any day XD

 

[Ikasury]

Just the other day as I was grabbing coffee at work I heard a group of four women talking about a date one of them had that evening. The conversation went as follows: "I don't really like him." Another woman: "But hey, free movie and dinner!" That's a form of objectification (walking wallets). And there are genuine feminists who will call this kind of gender inequality out for both ways (take Cathy Young for example) but these people seem to be in the minority.

my summary response to this: GOD I HATE THOSE BITCHES!! >.<

no, seriously, its women like that (and gay men, or really ANY gender/orientation) that will go out with someone just because THEY get something out of it... I'VE NEVER DONE THAT!! RAWR!! i hate the concept of 'using' people and am particularly sensitive to it myself, its a 'way we think' problem, not a 'gender' problem honestly... some people are just assholes that will use others for their self-gratification or only think with their libido, while there are others of us out there who would never dream of or even consider such a thing because we have self-respect and treat others how we want to be treated, and then there's people that JUST DON'T CARE!! XD i'm sure there's more in between, what with 'genders' and 'orientations' and all but that about sums up my experience on that~

these are typically the ones first to pull out the 'sexism/homophobe' cards too, even though THEY are the ones that make it WORSE!! RAWR!! spite spite spite spite!!

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Lets ask a woman about this. Lets see what does she think about mainstream feminism (not the radical one) by quoting famous people that EVERYONE accepts as part of Feminism:

Nice "Not True Scotsman" strawman right there, yo.

Here's my reply from a thread in R&P that I made just the other day regarding "NAFALT":

The NAFALT argument is old, tired and needs to die. Feminism is about creating an equal society for everyone no matter their sex, by getting rid of socialized gender differences. Really, you can pretty much pick up any pop-science book about feminism and have that explained to you. Of course there will be internal disagreement within the movement about how this is done, that's bound to happen when millions of people want the same thing, but that does't mean feminism is ill-defined.

NAFALT is stupid because it isn't even a proper retort or reply. It is a way for anti-feminists to quickly shutdown any attempt at response to what is essentially an anecdotal texas sharpshooter fallacy argument ("Feminists are like this *videolink/bloglink here*!").

It is just like as if I stated that all republicans are tea partyers and then started chanting "NARALT!" (Not all republicans are like that) when a republican told me that not all republicans support the tea party. In this context we can all see how silly it is, yet when it comes to feminism you seem to be under the delusion that it is somehow a proper argument.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Really, you can pretty much pick up any pop-science book about feminism and have that explained to you. Of course there will be internal disagreement within the movement about how this is done, that's bound to happen when millions of people want the same thing, but that does't mean feminism is ill-defined.

Ah! so you DIDN'T see the video of GWW giving a looooooooooooong list of mainstream Feminism people that everyone adores even when what they say is batshit insane. Ok cool.

It doesn't matter what the books says. If reality and facts doesn't match up to those, then its complete bullshit.

NAFALT is stupid because it isn't even a proper retort or reply.

I am sure she will be glad to hear that.....if you actually commented or saw the video.

It is a way for anti-feminists to quickly shutdown any attempt at response to what is essentially an anecdotal texas sharpshooter fallacy argument ("Feminists are like this *videolink/bloglink here*!").

I didn't post a Feminist in that video (she is an Equalist/Humanist, not a Feminist), i posted a woman listing things that Non Radical Feminist found acceptable to do. You will know that if you saw the video.

 

[APersonHere]

Feminism is about creating an equal society for everyone no matter their sex, by getting rid of socialized gender differences. Really, you can pretty much pick up any pop-science book about feminism and have that explained to you. Of course there will be internal disagreement within the movement about how this is done, that's bound to happen when millions of people want the same thing, but that does't mean feminism is ill-defined.

Like I said earlier, it's not the definition I have a problem with, but more than not a number of faulty or dogmatic implementations... just like with countless "isms" over the centuries. Like it or not, there comes a time when the methods are as associated with a name as the idea, even when the two conflict.

Why is it that when we hear the word "communism" we think of ruthless dictators, starvation, poverty, and a fairly all-around crappy state of affairs? Karl Marx would be more than a little upset to see what became of well-intentioned ideas foiled by generally crappy human nature.

 

[Terramax]

Wow, what a post. I literally had to have a tea break halfway through reading. I feel like I've opened a can of worms here, but lets try and penetrate a few things.

snip

okay, i hate to sound like a -dick- but quite honestly there's a difference between the hyper-feminist portrayal of a 'kickass woman' and say, a normal woman would, these supposed 'empowered' woman i put into a categorey called 'chicks' because that's all they really are, just 'chicks', they flounce around making it a point to go on and on and on about I AM WOMAN TREAT ME EQUAL when actually that statement kinda makes it impossible... personally i HATE cosmo-chicks, or anything to do with the stepford-style of teaching girls to be... 'girls'... and then trying to make that 'empowering'? its brainwashing and media/social-things just imposing another 'standard' on someone... personally, i've never worn makeup, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO WEAR MAKEUP!! yes, that's shocking, but we 'natural' women do exist... what i do for my own sense of 'style' i do because 'I' find it attractive and think i look good wearing it, not because someone ELSE does... also as a weird point, all those 'chicks' i've met in my life who like to do all this... i dunno, stepford-cosmo junk trying to 'get' guys, always ***** and complain when all they attract are assholes, while me over in my nature-corner get proposition by men/women/EVERYTHING and i'm not TRYING to attract anyone, so lets just say that all opinions on... anything, are skewed... but this leads validly to me that all that 'cosmo' BS and caring about 'appearances' is worthless *shrugs*

Yeah, I get that completely. And I think it describes many of the women in my last work place rather well. It's bizarre, magazines like Cosmo seem to force-feed this ideology of 'empowered women', but then go on to writing articles about how to attract more men, and how to apply makeup, that ultimately causes many women to pretend they're something they're not. I've often read the magazine feeling like it's a complete contradiction.

For centuries, women were able to pick up men left, right, and center, without the need of makeup, so I don't see how it's a necessity to get a man now?

alright, you've worked in 'female-dominated' workspaces? huh? that's funny... i'm being serious, that's funny to me XD i've done nothing but worked in 'male-dominated' workspaces where once they figured out i wasn't a 'chick' and i wasn't going to 'sue them' they figured it was fair game to hit on me constantly then get pissy when i would constantly rebuke them... and if they weren't hitting on me they were talking the most crudest and descriptive ways about women they 'like' (this being subjective as i don't think they ever remembered names, and just body parts) and whom they've 'done'... i think us social introverts on forums just don't 'think' like these people, whereas you had to work with 'chicks' and i had to work with 'dudes' and neither were of the same quality... i will not deny that women think of sex more then men, its how we're wired as far as i'm concerned, and being raised by cougars in a matriarch that was my 'family' that's not something i will ever deny... how i gained complete 'apathy' for discussing my preferences is beyond me, but i've met like ONE other woman like me whom we just wanted to sit around playing video games and NOT talk about who was doing who... i blame media for making this some 'big thing' honestly...

Wait, what (regarding that bit on bold), did you really mean to say women think about it more? Or do you mean, more they discuss it openly more?

I've worked in the odd male-dominated workplace, and I can also see where you're going there. Honestly, I've not gotten along very well with men in those alpha-male workplaces either. I'm not the most masculine person out there, and I'm more interested in having a deep and complex conversation as opposed to talking about the T&A of women all day long.

In fact, I once had to threaten physical pain to one guy for sexually molesting a female member of staff in one job. Yes, I think I hate dudes as much as you do.

That's not to say that I don't talk about women at all. When I came to Japan, many of us guys did talk a fair bit about how beautiful we thought Japanese women were, particularly how liberal they were showing their legs, and it did cause one particular feminist to get upset on the odd occasion. However, I wouldn't go as far as to say we were ever crude. My point is, there's a balance, or a line, between being a typical person of their sex, and then self-indulging in a gender's traits.

I'm under the impression that, whenever you're in a job that's either predominantly men or women, people in those places feel it necessary to exaggerate either their masculine or feminine traits. And what we end up getting are people acting on extreme ends of the spectrum.

media is TERRIBLE at T&A, its like that's the only thing worth posting nowadays, like lets take Game of Thrones, the 'new' people who've never read the books (like me) for the most part i see going for the show because it had quite honestly 'gratuitous sex' all throughout seasons 1 and 2, flip over to 3 now, and i've actually become 'glad' they stopped with all the pointless T&A because honestly, i like PLOT!! okay, not PLOT!! but actually the interactions between the characters, i think the ACTORS are f*cking FABULOUS!! the small details and nuances they portray are freakin' awesome!! and while maybe no one around you likes Johnny Depp for acting, i do, cause i sure as heck don't find him attractive .-.

I've never watched 'Game of Thrones', part of the reason being because I've heard there's so much T&A in that series. Not only that, I get the feeling it's likely to be a bit... Americanised (nothing wrong with that, but I tend to not enjoy most American TV shows).

It's a real shame as, on both sides of the pond, the UK and US made some fantastic TV shows in the past, which relied little to no emphasis on sex to sell. Frazer, Cheers, Roxanne, etc, for the US, Red Dwarf, Father Ted, One Foot in the Grave, etc, for the UK. All replaced by stories starring highly sexed up actors and images, where stories and real character development seem to take 2nd priority.

back to the point of 'kickass females', the ones you see mostly, who are albeit more 'annoying' as you put it, if they aren't 'chicks', which for the love of all the is unholy PLEASE let them not be chicks, are typically a 'Vasquez', THEY ARE DESIGNED THAT WAY!! because they're snarky-butch-esque male-proxy women, i love Michelle Rodriguez and will watch any movie with her in it just because she is the greatest 'Vasquez' next to the original, but where OG 'Vasquez' (i actually don't know the actresses name T.T) was more 'butch' cause that was the thing at the time, Michelle and any of her incarnations... ISN'T, she's still definitely female and pulls off that much more, but she still, as what's innate in that character, pretty much a dude with tits, but the contrast between the two shows how much the 'male factor' has shrunk in that character type and i like to think it means we've garnered some 'progress', the 'Vasquez' CAN be sexy~ in a womanly way... but its usually counter-balanced by assloads more snark, still... *snorts*

I'm assuming 'Vasquez' is regarding the Aliens character? Yeah, I can tell some of the people in my old workplace were like that. But even if they were naturally designed like that, I still feel that, if they honestly put even a little thought into the feelings of others, they wouldn't be even half as obnoxious as they often tend to be.

Back on the subject of the female-dominated jobs, which are usually offices, not all of them were terrible people. In fact, I'd say a lot of them, deep-down, were very caring people. But like, possibly, many men in the male-dominated ones, they're often under the influence or misguided by others, or the media.

In fact, one of them, a REAL WOMAN, who took it upon herself to lose 9 stone, literally half her body weight, and end up on the front page of a magazine, selling her story of weight loss, almost ended up as my partner, and we probably would've ended up being if we weren't work colleagues on the same team.

and believe me, I KNOW just how effectively guys can turn ANYTHING into some sex-innuendo, or just blunt sex-parody, why do you think Rule 34 exists? humans as a whole are hardwired to make sex a priority because its the driving force of our existence, to make the next generation, women for WHATEVER REASON have viewed stating and accepting this as openly 'bad', with 'help' from guys, for generations... clinically i can do this because i set my brain to 'logic', but if you asked me what i find 'sexy' i'd probably just glare at you to go away, while a guy asked the same thing would give a generic auto-response of 'tits' and/or 'ass' because that's the 'dude' answer, but that too could be completely wrong and he's only saying it because its expected of him... despite our 'advances' in society and skewing of socially acceptable things, we all feel this 'pressure' to just say what is most commonly expect, either in the guy's sense to affirm he's a guy, or in my sense of 'its easier to say nothing' and get away with it... by the way, engineers, good god engineers... the things people can come up with with duct-tape...

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I'll admit that sexual-innuendos are fairly common with me, although at one point I realised I was going overboard, and decided to tone things down a little. Browsing the internet all day long doesn't help matters, I suppose.

now as for your question of why i love Aya so much, and i'm sorry, i've never played those games, i'll look in to it :3

By the sounds of what you've said about Parasite Eve, I really recommend looking into Still Life especially. One women gamer has mentioned she is ever-so-slightly unrealistic, as she's wearing a skirt in the middle of a winter urban area (which is never emphasised in the game, ever), but besides that, there's nothing about the game that exploits women in any way... well, there is, but it's actually part of the very mature storyline (murders of prostitutes, copycats from a case in Prague back in the 1930's, I think). God, now I want to play this game again. Shame, all my games are literally on the other side of the world right now.

now you said you only played the 2nd and 3rd Birthday... *sigh* you really should play the first one, that's where its the best in my opinion,

I grew up in the UK. To this day, Europe has never had an official release of the first game (but strangely, the 2nd game and 3rd Birthday were released). This is really frustrating as I REALLY want to play the first game. I heard a rumour that maybe the first game will be coming to PSN Europe sometime in the future, but I'm not holding my breathe.

Currently living in Japan, I've been tempted to buy the first game here, but I know very, very little Japanese, so I won't likely get the best experience. I could watch the game on youtube, but I don't think I'd get the best experience just watching that game.

One day..... I hope to play this awesome looking game.

i have NEVER cared so much about a character, nor seen it done so RIGHT in just small nuances, because once Real-Aya showed up, i was squealing, because it was HER, not Eve trying to play her, HER... Accept no substitutes!!

This is very interesting, because a lot of people who reviewed 3rd Birthday pointed out they found Aya/ Eve to be very inconsistant when talking about her personality - being a badass, or a complete sissy. I've come to this conclusion too, seeing here constantly sighing, huffing and puffing, squealing like a girl in certain cutscenes. All of this seems at odds from the main gameplay, that sees her shooting waves of enemies, whilst never actually saying anything at all.

Perhaps it's because I've not been as well invested in the series as you have (although I've wanted to... I once seriously looked into ordering an American copy of the first game, but decided against as I was preparing to move to Japan, so no time), but with other reviews also stating inconsistencies in her character development over the games (and the very confusing plot in the 3rd game), I've not been under the impression Aya was that good a character.

However, in light of what you've described, it's clear I will one day have to knuckle down with this games and see for myself.

so, to be honest, its not that Aya is a WOMAN that makes her good character, its that that DOES NOT MATTER and she's a GREAT CHARACTER!! the fact she's a woman just adds to it, and quite honestly, if i had to say i had a childhood 'hero' that i ever wanted to grow up to be, its not Ripley, its not Vasquez, it sure-as-hell not Wonder-Woman or any of those 'chicks'... its mother-f*cking AYA BREA!!

This is indeed why I like Victoria McPherson from Still Life, and Heather from Silent Hill 3. Their sex means nothing to the story (although, Silent Hill being Silent Hill, it does make hints of sexual meanings throughout the story, but not in an explicit, exploitative way).

 

[Ikasury]

Wow, what a post. I literally had to have a tea break halfway through reading. I feel like I've opened a can of worms here, but lets try and penetrate a few things.

HA! XD one of my 'problems' i guess, i'll say everything straight, especially if its something i care about~

Yeah, I get that completely. And I think it describes many of the women in my last work place rather well. It's bizarre, magazines like Cosmo seem to force-feed this ideology of 'empowered women', but then go on to writing articles about how to attract more men, and how to apply makeup, that ultimately causes many women to pretend they're something they're not. I've often read the magazine feeling like it's a complete contradiction.

For centuries, women were able to pick up men left, right, and center, without the need of makeup, so I don't see how it's a necessity to get a man now?

like i said, this 'feminist' thing is really only hurting women's opinions of themselves, and its 'funny' because it has less to do with 'men's' opinions on women, and us on ourselves... while i've had my 'issues' with guys and seeing me as an equal, i always found it harder to get women to see me as 'equal', probably because once they started talking i was 'cordial' with them, and if i'm 'cordial' with anyone it means i hate their guts but i'm going to be 'nice' about it, because shockingly enough i've had MORE problems with 'chicks' just because of whatever it is about them that makes them think they're so freakin' special then 'dudes', i may not 'like' dudes, but they're simple and i can 'get' why they do what they do, i much prefer the 'higher thinking' crowd though...

Wait, what (regarding that bit on bold), did you really mean to say women think about it more? Or do you mean, more they discuss it openly more?

YES!! while men will relatively think about sex every 10 MINUTES women think about sex every 10 SECONDS, its just how we're wired, i know this some 'secret' or something we try to hide from guys, but honestly i've never felt particularly inclined to deny it, i was raised by cougars after all (as in OLDER women who hunt YOUNG guys~ snark) but will i outright say it for the sake of 'saying it'? no... and just because i 'think' it and accept this as a fact does not mean i let it run my personality, i pay about as much attention to those 'thoughts' as men do RPB, its just a relatively 'normal' physical process and not requiring much 'thought'... i find 'chicks' are more inclined to 'talk' about it in large groups, same as men do, just to prove their 'prowess' for whatever reason...

I've never watched 'Game of Thrones', part of the reason being because I've heard there's so much T&A in that series. Not only that, I get the feeling it's likely to be a bit... Americanised (nothing wrong with that, but I tend to not enjoy most American TV shows).

It's a real shame as, on both sides of the pond, the UK and US made some fantastic TV shows in the past, which relied little to no emphasis on sex to sell. Frazer, Cheers, Roxanne, etc, for the US, Red Dwarf, Father Ted, One Foot in the Grave, etc, for the UK. All replaced by stories starring highly sexed up actors and images, where stories and real character development seem to take 2nd priority.

can't say anything about it being 'americanized', seeing as i'm American (the 'good' kind ) but seeing as they're not blatantly changing names (from what i hear) or having use break out into song for no reason *shrugs* probably not? i actually got interested in it for the human interaction, its FASCINATING to me to actually just watch a series of human interactions and watch as it just gets progressively WORSE by people TRYING to make it somehow 'better', there's no real trail of 'thought' just a series of actions brought on by manipulative-bastards, all of them, EVERY SINGLE ONE... the 'sex' part to me was 'meh', but this is HBO, at this point if it doesn't have 'sex' plastered all over it its almost like it can't be seen on the channel~ *snorts* enforcing a 'sex' requirement because its 'expected', hmm? that sounds oddly 'on topic'~

and i love what's across the pond honestly, grew up on british commidies, thank you PBS, and probably why i'm so 'used' to picking out innuendos and knowing to just LAUGH at them XD

I'm assuming 'Vasquez' is regarding the Aliens character? Yeah, I can tell some of the people in my old workplace were like that. But even if they were naturally designed like that, I still feel that, if they honestly put even a little thought into the feelings of others, they wouldn't be even half as obnoxious as they often tend to be.

Back on the subject of the female-dominated jobs, which are usually offices, not all of them were terrible people. In fact, I'd say a lot of them, deep-down, were very caring people. But like, possibly, many men in the male-dominated ones, they're often under the influence or misguided by others, or the media.

In fact, one of them, a REAL WOMAN, who took it upon herself to lose 9 stone, literally half her body weight, and end up on the front page of a magazine, selling her story of weight loss, almost ended up as my partner, and we probably would've ended up being if we weren't work colleagues on the same team.

sounds dreadful honestly... people wouldn't have 'weight problems' if they just listened to their own bodies and moderated themselves slightly, but then we wouldn't have these 'empowering' stories now would we~ *sigh*

and yes, the 'Vasquez' is from Aliens, EVERYONE that watches that movie remembers her, and she did pretty much create the staple of 'BADASS WOMAN!! RAWR!!' XD its a 'type' that honestly before wasn't quite 'defined', she's a 'lady of war' yes, but without the refinement or sticking to femininity, and instead replacing it with the 'easier' BUTCH-MAN-AWESOME!! RAWR!! but its also like 'wolf's clothing' as in that outward attitude could just be compensating for a whole other mess of things, yay psychology~

By the sounds of what you've said about Parasite Eve, I really recommend looking into Still Life especially. One women gamer has mentioned she is ever-so-slightly unrealistic, as she's wearing a skirt in the middle of a winter urban area (which is never emphasised in the game, ever), but besides that, there's nothing about the game that exploits women in any way... well, there is, but it's actually part of the very mature storyline (murders of prostitutes, copycats from a case in Prague back in the 1930's, I think). God, now I want to play this game again. Shame, all my games are literally on the other side of the world right now.

*shrugs* i don't understand why 'prostitutes' are considered 'exploiting women', they exist, in fact prostitution is the oldest 'business' around, and really, the women in it (willingly) are generally 'smart', prostitution was the original means to female power, using 'sex' as a trade to be bought, as a means to get what they want... really THAT is more 'sexually empowering' then all this other 'feminist' BS i hear... me personally, no i don't want to 'sell' my sex, its not in my nature, i can't be that detatched to carnal acts, but i can respect them for their 'trade' and not treat them as 'less', they're 'chicks' who aren't making excuses for themselves, they know they can get things for sex and use it bluntly, good on them~ now those 'forced' into such a trade, yea, that's 'bad' and not fair and exploitation, but again its another one of those 'fine lines'... this Still Life is sounding interesting, guess i'll be putting it on my list...

This is very interesting, because a lot of people who reviewed 3rd Birthday pointed out they found Aya/ Eve to be very inconsistant when talking about her personality - being a badass, or a complete sissy. I've come to this conclusion too, seeing here constantly sighing, huffing and puffing, squealing like a girl in certain cutscenes. All of this seems at odds from the main gameplay, that sees her shooting waves of enemies, whilst never actually saying anything at all.

Perhaps it's because I've not been as well invested in the series as you have (although I've wanted to... I once seriously looked into ordering an American copy of the first game, but decided against as I was preparing to move to Japan, so no time), but with other reviews also stating inconsistencies in her character development over the games (and the very confusing plot in the 3rd game), I've not been under the impression Aya was that good a character.

However, in light of what you've described, it's clear I will one day have to knuckle down with this games and see for myself.

OOOH!! yea, that honestly annoyed me, because it made me have to wonder if they played the whole freakin' game... when i heard about i immediately went out and got it, to be honest i wasn't expecting 'Parasite Eve', as in the game that taught me more about the origins of human cellular structure then my biology class, the subtle 'evils' of humans, and one of my favorite characters and pretty much got me interested in games... i was honestly expecting a knock-off, i mean it was one the PSP for crying out loud... but soon as i heard that remix of Kyrie *squee* the game really surprised me, its a total fanboy(girl~) tribute to the series, i don't know if i can take the ENTIRE thing canonically (as i mentioned before, not ONCE while playing the game do they mention Mitochondria, when that was KINDA the whole point...) and a lot of it was hokey scifi bullshit, but what isn't in games these days? and ESPECIALLY from square? so there's a suspension of belief you have to keep in mind, and i'm a FAN of this thing? yes...

like i said, the way Eve/Aya acted was a tip off to me from the moment i started playing, did i 'question' it was Aya? yes, did i 'accept' it was Aya? ... yes, because the game told me to and i didn't think to dwell on the feeling too much... like i said they explained it away as 'amnesia' which i can give credit to 'forgetting' details but there's parts of a personality that don't go away... Eve/Aya's timidness in battle, she's 'fighting' yes, but you can tell its more of a 'i SHOULD be fighting because i'm a badass' and not just DOING it, see the difference... throughout the game Eve was trying to BE Aya because that's who she THOUGHT she was, via the whole body-possession-thing, it never occured to 'Aya' that she WASN'T AYA!! and the game tries and tricks you into believing that too... i thought it was f*cking great!! because throughout the game she 'becomes' her, she solidifies herself as her hero, and with the realization she ISN'T her hero, its traumatizing, yes, but she now knows WHO she really is and that she can take care of herself... its more a 'growing experience' for Eve honestly... Aya's only part in the whole thing is confirmation and one last BIG-DAMN-HEROS!! moment...

Eve in essence is still a 'little girl', she just now has the body, backstory, and biological memories of someone who's a full-grown adult and had to take down various body-horrors... skill memory like shooting a gun or instinctive things like 'attacking an enemy' instead of cowering when provoked are 'base instincts' they're more in the 'body' then in the 'mind'... it would make LESS SENSE if there wasn't a personality 'confliction'... as another example of this kind of Mind Screw where 'it all makes sense in the end', Mirai Nikki's Yuno Gasai or Puella Magi Madoka Magika's Akemi, its supreme acting on the part of the character, to 'them' it makes sense why they are who they are, and its not until that's EXPLAINED to the audience that it MAKES SENSE, otherwise we just think they're batshit crazy or inconsistent ice queen...

plus you have to accept, ITS A GAME, game-play versus how a person 'really acts' is always at conflict (look at Drakengard 2, sissy takes out army and... whines? about it?) so for personality-sake in a character, i always pay attention to 'cutscene-land' more then 'game-play', because game-play is always this weird middle-verse of inconsistencies with everything~ as for the insonsistencies in personality as a whole of Aya... i don't know what those people are talking about? really, i don't... i mean sure if you want your MC to be a robot that has the SAME personality no matter what happens to them... sure? but i LIKE that she changes, she ages, she grows-the-f*ck-up~ (well Eve 'grows' more then Aya) but she has an established personality, overall, but a person can't say that in day-to-day they don't have moments of being completely different, can they? i mean i like being a total badass that i am yet i have my moments of turning adora-cute when something fluffy crosses my path... i dunno, to me it all makes sense, in context, she's someone that has a naturally developed and justifiable 'savior-complex' built on top of 'survivor's guilt', and in the end its all tied to being 'afraid' of what she is and isn't... even without the whole mitochondria thing it seems like a valid 'human' development, how we 'act' and how we 'are' are typically at odds in some sense... but like i said, the fact that i could 'identify' Aya Brea - Mitochondrial Badass the second she pulls off her BIG-DAMN-HEROES!! moment as opposed to Eve i'd been playing the entire game and questioning, kinda says something doesn't it?

i can literally take the two pics from 3rd Birthday, the general one for promotionals, and the one in the wedding dress, and 'see' the differences in personality just by stance and smaller nuances, i love that gaming has gotten to the point where visuals coincide with the subtitles of 'body-language' and identification of people's personalities there from... and this is a really WEIRD example as its the same 'body' just two different 'minds'... yet after writing all that i took these two picks and was like 'yep, that's little Eve and that's Aya' but then again this may be just how my brain works, i find i can remember the nuances of many characters i like a lot better then other people i've met *shrugs*

personally its just a good 'character' if they're that recognizable to a fan i think... best character? greatest character? *shrugs* no idea, i only know that in my opinion, yes, yes she is~ and while people talk all about this 'no good female protagonists' and the now current add on of 'EXCEPT BAYONETTA!!' i look back at Aya and just go... 'huh?'

but i know Silent Hill as a series is good on the 'not leaving anyone alone' thing and generally has good plots/characters, and as is its nature a delve into the 'evils' of people, or what we perceive them to be, its understandable there would be things about 'sex' and lusts and all that jazz, since that seems to be the primary target to go for with 'evils of women' because... yea, for whatever reason we're less 'inclined' to just outright state it, except those 'chicks' i will never understand, pack-mentalitiy i guess, but as a general whole... Persona 4 plays a lot with this in a different way, but i know i need to get into Silent Hill more~ and adding Still Life to my 'list' i've been getting from this~ but if you do get PE on psn (wow, i'm sorry for you, i got that a long time ago when i first got my PS3, grab Xenogears and Legend of Dragoon while you're at it XD) remember that its... 'old', i love it, still have fun replaying it, but i know its clunky with 'bad' graphics because i've been spoiled with things like Heavy Rain and Final Fantasy... but i dunno, the story still works for me, and i love the small tid-bits of humor most people just skip over (there's something about mutant rabbits eating Aya's beat-up old car i will never stop laughing about) but oh, memories~ Centipede... Giant Cockroach... those rats and Shiva's intro body-horror after body-horror... *twitch* XD and i dunoo, EVE, big-EVE is just such a 'nice' villain XD

 

[Terramax]

like i said, this 'feminist' thing is really only hurting women's opinions of themselves, and its 'funny' because it has less to do with 'men's' opinions on women, and us on ourselves...

If only more women saw it that way.

YES!! while men will relatively think about sex every 10 MINUTES women think about sex every 10 SECONDS, its just how we're wired, i know this some 'secret' or something we try to hide from guys, but honestly i've never felt particularly inclined to deny it...

Whilst most men have always known women to think about sex more than they let one, this is definitely something different from what I'm used to reading.

sounds dreadful honestly... people wouldn't have 'weight problems' if they just listened to their own bodies and moderated themselves slightly, but then we wouldn't have these 'empowering' stories now would we~ *sigh*

There's an element of truth in that. The woman grew up with little respect for herself, and was treated with less respect by others around her. She's naturally a very sensitive person, but I have great admiration as one of the few people, period, who's had the power to pull herself out of a whole.

I wouldn't say she's 'empowered' as such. I reserve that word for people who go too far and start throwing their weight around (no pun intended). She's very down to earth about it.

*shrugs* i don't understand why 'prostitutes' are considered 'exploiting women', they exist, in fact prostitution is the oldest 'business' around, and really, the women in it (willingly) are generally 'smart', prostitution was the original means to female power, using 'sex' as a trade to be bought, as a means to get what they want... really THAT is more 'sexually empowering' then all this other 'feminist' BS i hear... me personally, no i don't want to 'sell' my sex, its not in my nature, i can't be that detatched to carnal acts, but i can respect them for their 'trade' and not treat them as 'less', they're 'chicks' who aren't making excuses for themselves, they know they can get things for sex and use it bluntly, good on them~ now those 'forced' into such a trade, yea, that's 'bad' and not fair and exploitation, but again its another one of those 'fine lines'... this Still Life is sounding interesting, guess i'll be putting it on my list...

Whoops, sorry, that's not what I meant. originally I meant that the main character is not exploited for being a woman i.e. no ridiculous knicker shots, or scenes of her walking around in a bra, etc.

That being said, it's refreshing to read another woman with this opinion on prostitution also. I remember once talking to a porn star in a bar, many years ago, and her arguing that, if anything, prostitution and pornography is more the exploitation of men, if anything. After all, they're the suckers handing over their money, whilst the woman gets to enjoy good sex and get paid for it.

I personally don't see what the problem is either. I guess a lot of people out there, particularly women, are under this impression that there's one man for every woman, and that we should all be saving ourselves for just one person, so the idea of us sharing ourselves around to multiple persons is against our design. Which I personally believe is the opposite. I don't consider humans as monogamous beings, and we were designed to have sex with a great number of people, to increase the chances of our genes surviving. But, hey, it's all opinions really. As long as we're not forcing our opinions on others, right?

*snip - regarding 3rd Birthday*

Now THAT explains a lot of things. The story actually makes way more sense now that you've mentioned it. Perhaps if I'd played to the end I might've got it.

Regardless as to whether people got things wrong, I do believe how the story is told in 3rd Birthday just wasn't very beneficial for anyone other than those emotionally attached to the first two games (which, to be fair, isn't many). It's safe to assume that many people diving into 3rd Birthday (again, no pun intended) didn't play the previous games, and the story should've been less convoluted.

Her actions make more sense with your explanation, but it often just came off as the developers not really knowing what they were doing with the story or the character of Aya/EVE.

I've reuploaded the game to my Vita (the game is MUCH better on the Vita btw, better graphics, and you can assign the 2nd analogue to control the camera). I just wonder if I can be bothered to go through it. I reached the bit where Aya's whole team were completely slaughtered, and she ends up working with this very creepy nerd in what appears to be a very run down apartment. How close is this to the end of the game, would you say?

I don't know why, I just kind a tuned out at that point. I think it's because I enjoyed the idea of always returning to that laboratory hub after every mission, so after that disappeared, I lost that sense of warmth I got every time I returned to there.

remember that its... 'old'...

Don't worry. You happen to be talking to a retro gamer here. I spend most of my time playing Sega Saturn, Dreamcast, PS1 and Gamecube games.