Obsidian accused of transmisogyny in Pillars of Eternity

[ZiggyE]

If they do not disclose it because they fear rejection or the reaction it means they cannot claim to have reasonably believed consent was given, sex acts without consent are just wrong. Whatever the gender, whatever the sexuality its wrong, simply wrong and there can never be justification for it.

It's not rape if someone isn't aware of certain traits about you when they have sex with you. It just isn't. This distortion of the horrible crime rape actually is common by progressives as well, when they try to claim that being drunk (but still functionally drunk) is grounds for claiming you were raped as well as deceiving someone into consenting to have sex when they otherwise wouldn't have. Neither of these things are rape.

Should someone transsexual tell someone before they have sex with them? Yes.
Would I be uncomfortable, perhaps feel violated, if I had sex with a transsexual and they didn't tell me? Yes.
Should they be legally obliged to tell you and be considered rapists if they don't? No.

The solution to all of this seems to be don't have casual sex with strangers.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

So you understand that physical harm isn't the only type of harm there is? Good. Would it not be safe to assume that many people would feel violated from finding out they slept with someone who used to be the same sex as they are? If this isn't a widespread feeling, then why would there be so many violent reactions to it?

The absolute closest thing to a form of violation for sleeping with a trans person is sex by deception or attempting to have sex with someone under the pretenses that they think they're having sex with someone else entirely. Most popular example can be seen first of the Revenge of the Nerds films and is often considered an actual sexual offense nowadays. But again, as the video demonstrates, say I had a prejudice against a certain grouping of people(a certain race for example) and desired not to have any relations with them, had sex with a woman from said group but realized they were a member of such a group after the fact. Is she still culpable for not telling me she's part of that group before sex or is it still placed more on me for not asking?

Does this person go out of their way to pass them self off as some other race, and do they have reasonable suspicion that the person they are sleeping with would feel violated if they found out the truth?

I think it's important to note, I'm not actually advocating legal action, simply arguing against the way people seem to be going out of their way to pretend they couldn't possibly imagine how this could bother someone.

I had a feeling the comparison to race was inevitable, so let me address it. Racism is very still prevalent in society, and probably always will be. It's really no secret that in general, people tend to be more attracted to their own race, or at very least, are attracted to certain races more than others. Even so, very few people would feel outright disgusted to learn that they have slept with someone of another race.

As for trans people. You can demand equal rights all you want, but you cannot demand that other people be sexually interested in you. And the reality is, whether you like it or not, the vast majority of heterosexual men would not consent to sleeping with someone who is transgender/transsexual, and would feel violated to find this out after the fact.

Going back to the "small dick" example, that was rather bafflingly thrown around earlier. I don't believe you have any moral obligating disclose this information under normal circumstance. However, if you go out of your way to sell yourself on the size of your dick to a person whom you have good reason to suspect would not sleep with you if they knew the truth, yeah, in that case you should probably tell them.

So you understand that physical harm isn't the only type of harm there is? Good. Would it not be safe to assume that many people would feel violated from finding out they slept with someone who used to be the same sex as they are?

No, it wouldn't be safe to assume that, since there's plenty of people who don't have a problem with it. Additionally, if it bothers them so much that that situation might happen, they could ask their partner. You know, communication, the key to a healthy relationship with any human being.

Yes ... it kind of is safe to assume that.

As for the discussion over whose responsibility it is to ask/tell; a transgender/transsexual person is far more likely to encounter a cisgender person who is not okay with it, than a cisgender person is to encounter someone who is transgender. Not to mention the fact that most women would probably feel insulted if people asked them if they used to be man.
It makes significantly more sense for transgender people to ask whether this is an issue, since it will be relevant to a significantly higher proportion of encounters, rather than having it the other way round.

For some reason I'm reminded of the "everything is okay alarm" ...

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Yes, I do think that. Its because I've been at the butt of thousands of other jokes just like this. You tend to recognize them.

you personally?

because if so, then I feel very sorry that you're either bullied, or someone REALLY has a hard-on for making jokes about you, but if by "you" you mean a trans individual, well then anyone can claim that about anything that remotely could describe them, so I really don't want to play the "who's had it worse" game in jokes, because that'll go nowhere.

I hate to break it to you, but porn isn't real. Its fantasy. Almost all of it is fantasy.

well no shit it's fantasy (mostly), but it obviously came from somewhere, it didn't fall out of the sky from aliens, and by the fact that there is so much of it OBVIOUSLY shows it has either A) some sort of following or B) there are lots of people who like/want this in that specific fetish.

Because there are heterosexual people who are fine with sexual relationships with transgender people. Its almost like genital configuration is an individual preference separate from gender.

yes, but obviously you've been quoted up the whazoo by people who are either A) not cool with beating around the bush on being honest about things with a potential sex partner or B) they do have a problem with it, so yeah, it's almost like genital configuration "does" matter to some people.

there aren't any hard statistics on it I could find, but seeing as an overwhelming majority of people are cisgender (if there is any relatively to being straight vs homosexual/bisexual) then roughly 96% of the US population is recognized as straight (source [http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr077.pdf]). So yes, when you MIGHT be in a minority (one user mentioned being into BDSM, something that isn't what the majority might practice) it's probably smart to be upfront about whatever the issue is.

That doesn't just go for being transsexual, and I do include myself in that, if there is something I have or am currently, or something I like or am looking for, I'll mention it up front, because deception is bad, m'kay?

Regardless, its not "censorship". Its a patch for the game to change something that they thought should no longer be there.

an optional patch would be great, honestly, I just don't see the need for *removing* something from a game for everyone when a tiny minority are the only ones who asked for it in the first place.

 

[ZiggyE]

But you're not talking about what it's like to be transgender. You're telling us what straight men think.

What I know what some straight men think.

You're saying that straight men believe transsexual people are going out there trying to trick them into having sex with us?

Well there are straight men who believe that, so yes. I never said all straight men, but quite a few, certainly.

Well maybe straight men like me have a better idea of what straight men think than transsexuals.

You're right, which is why I'm judging this based on what straight men (and some straight women) have themselves said about trans people. You don't have to walk far to find a politician spouting out these ideas, and I'm tangled up with a dozen people quoting me so I'm not going to go hunt for links for something a politician says every other day.

You are claiming there is a culture of men who believe that transsexuals out there want to trick them into sex, which is why this poem is such a sensitive issue. A small sample size of men telling you they think that way is not evident of a culture of men who think that way.

has never had to deal with prejudice towards your gender identity?

That's fairly presumptuous. I've been denied mental health care that I sorely needed at the time because I am male. So, I haven't just been prejudiced for my gender identity, I've been outright institutionally discriminated by my nation's public health care system because of it.

 

[J Tyran]

If they do not disclose it because they fear rejection or the reaction it means they cannot claim to have reasonably believed consent was given, sex acts without consent are just wrong. Whatever the gender, whatever the sexuality its wrong, simply wrong and there can never be justification for it.

It's not rape if someone isn't aware of certain traits about you when they have sex with you. It just isn't. This distortion of the horrible crime rape actually is common by progressives as well, when they try to claim that being drunk (but still functionally drunk) is grounds for claiming you were raped as well as deceiving someone into consenting to have sex when they otherwise wouldn't have. Neither of these things are rape.

Should someone transsexual tell someone before they have sex with them? Yes.
Would I be uncomfortable, perhaps feel violated, if I had sex with a transsexual and they didn't tell me? Yes.
Should they be legally obliged to tell you and be considered rapists if they don't? No.

The solution to all of this seems to be don't have casual sex with strangers.

You can say its a violation of that you "beleive" otherwise but that concept has slowly evolved out of decades of legal wrangling in order to address sexual abuse, its not something "progressives" or otherwise have just cooked up.

-Sexual acts need consent
-Deliberate omission can also be considered lying both morally and in the eyes of the law
-Deceiving someone into giving consent means the consent was invalid
-If someone fears either rejection or the reaction and it leads to an omission they cannot be sure of consent

Thats not a distortion, its a simple chain of logic.

Yes, well then perhaps people who think that they might be traumatized by a sexual encounter with a trans person should be upfront with potential partners about it. Communication is key to a good relationship.

When it comes to disclosure the onus is on those with something to disclose

Yes, if its harmful, eg an STI. Is transsexuality a sexually transmitted infection?

If they do not disclose it because they fear rejection

Or because its not important. I mean, do you tell all of your dates upfront that they're cis? Have you ever considered that somebody doesn't want to have a relationship with a cis guy? What makes cis disclosure any morally different from trans disclosure? I mean there's preferances in both directions, so they're equally valid, no?

or the reaction it means they cannot claim to have reasonably believed consent was given, sex acts without consent are just wrong.

We call that rape. Fortunately, you're going to know the genital configuration of the person you're fucking. You kind of can't fuck without it.

If the person had SRS, well, oh well. They didn't object to the genitalia before they knew they were trans, so rather than a sexual preference, its just prejudice, the same way that a person might suddenly be offput by a sexual partner once they learned that they're 1/4 black.

Whatever the gender, whatever the sexuality its wrong, simply wrong and there can never be justification for it.

I'm glad we agree, rape is wrong, no matter who is committing it.

Good thing that this isn't remotely in the realm of rape.

I just sigh when I read this, it reads like the flimsy deflections from the MRA knuckle draggers defending their own sexual aggression. I just hope this attitude isn't widely shared amongst the transgendered community, I would hate to see many Transgendered people getting jailed for sexual assault but with a willful dismissal of consent there would no other option.

 

[TrevHead]

Sigh ppl we get offended at anything

 

[ZiggyE]

-Deceiving someone into giving consent means the consent was invalid

This is where I disagree. Rape is a violent act. Consent can't be retroactively removed or made invalid because they regret it after they've learned more information about their partner.

EDIT: For example, let's say a man tells a woman he's divorced and then they have sex. Afterwards, the woman finds out that he wasn't actually divorced, he's still married, and she wouldn't have had sex with him if she had known otherwise. Do you believe that to also be rape? Because I don't. Likewise, if any progressives would consider that to be rape then, in the interests of fairness, they must also consider a transsexual woman not revealing her trans status to her partner before sex to also be rape.

 

[Redryhno]

snip

Can we agree that there's people uncomfortable with the idea of having sex with a transgender/sexual individual for whatever reason that may honestly have nothing to do with phobias and bigotry? Can we also agree that their preferences and right to a normal(relatively speaking) sexual scenario is just as important as the trans person's? Can we agree that completely anonymous stranger sex is a bit of a silly thing to involve yourself in in the first place? Can we agree that a relationship built on trust needs to have that little tidbit out of the way for a multitude of reasons ranging from biological kids to just general sexy times to be had honestly and in good fairness?

Can we agree that the poem implies nothing but a guy taking his womanization skills too seriously and too much a part of his being and it leading to his self-inflicted death?

 

[kael013]

Well I'm glad we finally agree on this.

No we don't. Not yet anyway.

[quote/]Yes, well then perhaps people who think that they might be traumatized by a sexual encounter with a trans person should be upfront with potential partners about it. [b/]Communication is key to a good relationship.[/b][/quote]
So once again it's on the non-trans to find out if the person they're hitting on is trans. [i/]Why can't they just tell the person!?[/i] Communication has to go both ways, one side shouldn't have to be the only one bringing all this crap up. Why is that so much to ask?

[b/]Why should it be on me to ensure that my partner is honest?[/b] I'm into BDSM. I ask my partner if they have a problem with that and, if they do, we work out what we'll do instead. Having them learn about my preferences by me putting a blindfold on them is disrespectful to them as a person as it disregards their preferences.

Well thats assuming that you're going to have sex in an explicitly BDSM manner. There is no explicit manner for sex with a trans person, its just, well, sex.

The point of that example is that I'm letting my partner know ahead of time what they are getting into. If they don't like it they can back out or we can find a work-around that both of us find comfortable. Surprising them in the bedroom, thinking they're automatically into the same things I am, is just wrong.

Also, the bold part was the more important bit.

Not really. Everyone who has an "abnormal" fetish/preference/orientation/whatever should be upfront about it.

Well if they're going to bring their fetish into the bedroom, sure.

Being trans is not a fetish, Having an aversion towards trans people is an orientation, so by your reasoning, if somebody has that orientation, which is aversion to trans people, they should be upfront about it?

I'm saying BOTH should be upfront about it. First the trans/gay/"abnormal" fetish person, then the other one. As you said, communication is the key to a good relationship, but it needs to go both ways and you've been saying it's up to the "normal" person to find all this out ahead of time - that's distinctly one-way on the communication front.

Let me reiterate the important part of my quote, seeing as you snipped it out: [b/]It shows that you care about the partner and reduces awkward situations in the bedroom.[/b]

It's all about basic human decency and seeing your partner not as an organ or a few orifices to stick something into, but as a thinking being with their own preferences. By not telling your partner you are trans or into some "abnormal" fetish (if you plan to bring that fetish up in the bedroom) you are lying by omission - and lying is not good communication.

 

[J Tyran]

-Deceiving someone into giving consent means the consent was invalid

This is where I disagree. Rape is a violent act. Consent can't be retroactively removed or made invalid because they regret it after they've learned more information about their partner.

Consent that wouldn't have existed without the deception was never valid in the first place, nothing "retroactive" about it.

Edit, noticed your strawmen edit and I will not address it. So far you have actually tried to have a discussion but I cannot be bothered with that, sorry but it is what it is. How many partners someone had/has or whatever band they like or not the same as the Human rights of gender expression and sexual identity.

 

[Erttheking]

A seven page thread over one tweet? ONE TWEEET!? One tweet that was so freaking lukewarm I almost fell asleep reading it! I find it ironic how many people say "People will get offended over everything" yet keep coming back and blowing up threads like this every single time something happens. For all the criticism about being offended, we sure have no problem getting on our high horses when someone says something we don't like. Over one tweet. IS THIS OUR HOBBY!? Everyone talking about how group X can't be offended while being offended at what group X did without the slightest hint of self awareness? Because of ONE COMMENT!? And absolutely everyone does it...I do it too, I'm not gonna pretend I'm above it. Everyone loves their controversies and my post count should point out how I've contributed.

When did being a gamer become such a fucking chore? Seeing the way people act about gaming brings me nothing but pure undiluted misery nowadays. I relate to the people who say they don't want to be called a gamer anymore because of all the baggage associated with it now.

...What's the point. Just what's the fucking point anymore.

 

[Redryhno]

A seven page thread over one tweet? ONE TWEEET!? One tweet that was so freaking lukewarm I almost fell asleep reading it! I find it ironic how many people say "People will get offended over everything" yet keep coming back and blowing up threads like this every single time something happens. For all the criticism about being offended, we sure have no problem getting on our high horses when someone says something we don't like. Over one tweet. IS THIS OUR HOBBY!? Everyone talking about how group X can't be offended while being offended at what group X did without the slightest hint of self awareness? Because of ONE COMMENT!?

When did being a gamer become such a fucking chore? Seeing the way people act about gaming brings me nothing but pure undiluted misery anymore. I relate to the people who say they don't want to be called a gamer anymore because of all the baggage associated with it now.

Read the thread more, and you'll see that it's apparently exploded into trans rights everywhere basically according to one person...

Edit: And really, the hobby only has as much baggage as you pile on yourself, same as it's always been with every hobby. You can just as easily just ignore it and not bother yourself with the politics of it and just play games, I know my parents do.

 

[Skatologist]

As for trans people. You can demand equal rights all you want, but you cannot demand that other people be sexually interested in you. And the reality is, whether you like it or not, the vast majority of heterosexual men would not consent to sleeping with someone who is transgender/transsexual, and would feel violated to find this out after the fact.

But the thing is, you already were sexually interested in them. The only thing that changes for at least post Sex Reassignment Surgery trans people is the "used to be a man" thing. (Sidenote: I'm completely fine with anyone who doesn't want to have sex with a trans woman who doesn't undergo SRS, that's fine due to probably how you want to have the sex, but I still haven't wrapped my head around post SRS scares and never have.) People freak the fuck out after having sex with someone who is transsexual. As the video said, these men are mostly distressed by the possibility of sleeping with a trans woman and enjoying the experience without knowing she's trans, so they don't prefer trans women, but still don't have a problem sleeping with them.

Going back to the "small dick" example, that was rather bafflingly thrown around earlier. I don't believe you have any moral obligating disclose this information under normal circumstance. However, if you go out of your way to sell yourself on the size of your dick to a person whom you have good reason to suspect would not sleep with you if they knew the truth, yeah, in that case you should probably tell them.

Can't this be leveled at ugly/make up wearing cisgender women too? Eh, forget it. Call me crazy, but I don't know trans women going around professing their womanhood to get laid or in relationships or lying about being trans when asked. Many either have rather feminine bodies prior to any treatment anyways or they're "visibly trans". Also, that comparison of yours would only seem apt if I heard non-SRS trans women raving about the glorious vaginas they don't actually have.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Yes ... it kind of is safe to assume that.

There's plenty of people who are fine with transgender people. There's even people with a particular attraction towards transgender people. Why is it not a reasonable assumption that the next person you meet might be attracted to trans people regardless of their trans status?

Because there are significantly more people who are not okay with. If you have to make an assumption, why assume the least likely option?

As for the discussion over whose responsibility it is to ask/tell; a transgender/transsexual person is far more likely to encounter a cisgender person who is not okay with it, than a cisgender person is to encounter someone who is transgender.

And? So? Math, yes, but it doesn't mean anything. There's plenty of racists around too. Do you think that everybody should disclosure their family lineage up to eight generations ago with every potential partner that they meet?

Oh good, another race comparison. Well, if it's worth saying, it's worth saying twice I guess.

The difference between these two is the fact that very very few people don't care even in the slightest about eight generations of genealogy (and most wouldn't know it anyway), whereas, a very sizable proportion (mostly probably the majority) of cisgener people do care about the birth sex of the person they are with.

I'm not advocating for legal action, but simply from a moral stand point that you should disclose this information if you have a reasonable suspicion that the person you are with would not consent to sex if they knew the truth. And yes, math does have everything to do with whether or not you have reasonable suspicion.

Not to mention the fact that most women would probably feel insulted if people asked them if they used to be man.

And whose problem is that? The problem of the cis woman, thats who.

Yeah, you're right, fuck those cis women.

The reason they would feel insulted is because asking each date/causal partner whether someone is transgender is rather rare, as such, if some where to ask them there would have to be something about them that gave this suspicion. They would probably assume the person asking the question thinks they have manly features, or something that would make them seem likely to be male at birth.

It makes significantly more sense for transgender people to ask whether this is an issue, since it will be relevant to a significantly higher proportion of encounters, rather than having it the other way round.

You've not provided any moral imperative for why trans people should disclose something that most of them consider an unimportant characteristic.

Because whether or not they consider it unimportant, others do, and would not consent if they knew the truth. Just because you don't consider something important, doesn't mean others share that opinion.

Besides, when has someone considering something unimportant been ... important? A lot of people consider transgender right to be unimportant.