Obsidian accused of transmisogyny in Pillars of Eternity

[Ratty]

Since Jim Sterling posted this:

Jim Sterling ‏@JimSterling 23 Min
So Tim Schafer makes a joke with a sock and it's an outrage, but a joke about a subject that's gotten trans people murdered is just lols.

on Twitter, I will now try to find out how many people got killed because of this joke. Or something similar.

Someone has sources?

(Btw: He retweeted it, and he has a huge audience, so he is partly responsible for the answer this tweet got. Which makes me kind of confused - he should really know what most people think of that.)

So glad Jim is gone from The Escapist if he's gonna peddle shit like this to everyone now.

He's a giant hypocrite. He calls himself a consumer advocate but refuses to criticize anti-consumer behavior in his friends like Leigh Alexander, indeed defending them.

I heard he also stabbed TotalBiscuit in the back today as well, while TB was in the hospital. I can't confirm that since I don't follow him, but that's a pretty scummy thing to do if true. Especially since TB stood up for him (wrongly I think, since it clearly was just a matter of Jim being far down the list of importance) when he whined about not getting a Final Fantasy review copy.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

Since Jim Sterling posted this:

Jim Sterling ‏@JimSterling 23 Min
So Tim Schafer makes a joke with a sock and it's an outrage, but a joke about a subject that's gotten trans people murdered is just lols.

on Twitter, I will now try to find out how many people got killed because of this joke. Or something similar.

Someone has sources?

(Btw: He retweeted it, and he has a huge audience, so he is partly responsible for the answer this tweet got. Which makes me kind of confused - he should really know what most people think of that.)

So glad Jim is gone from The Escapist if he's gonna peddle shit like this to everyone now.

Eh, I'm sure the silence already got raked over the rails for singling out the tweet, but I'm just gonna say.

He did not say that people could get killed because of Obsidian's joke. He's just saying that transpeople face a small chance at having to endure physical violence or even death in the situation that is presented in the poem. Still, I don't think the poem has much effect on any of those situations, or on how people perceive transfolk, so I don't view it as a huge deal. Whether you generally agree with Jim or how he handles himself or not, I wouldn't make a kneejerk reaction and say he said things he never did.

Jim's an alright person to me, but I've made my feelings known a couple times here on his content and how it seems to be rather sparse in terms of variety or much greater thought at times (not necessarily always). And I'd agree to some extent that he can be a hypocrite sometimes.

 

[endtherapture]

Since Jim Sterling posted this:

Jim Sterling ‏@JimSterling 23 Min
So Tim Schafer makes a joke with a sock and it's an outrage, but a joke about a subject that's gotten trans people murdered is just lols.

on Twitter, I will now try to find out how many people got killed because of this joke. Or something similar.

Someone has sources?

(Btw: He retweeted it, and he has a huge audience, so he is partly responsible for the answer this tweet got. Which makes me kind of confused - he should really know what most people think of that.)

So glad Jim is gone from The Escapist if he's gonna peddle shit like this to everyone now.

He's a giant hypocrite. He calls himself a consumer advocate but refuses to criticize anti-consumer behavior in his friends like Leigh Alexander, indeed defending them.

I've just finally unsubbed from Jim on YouTube after this debacle (support of removing the poem in the game). He's not a consumer advocate any more, he's a mouthpiece for the "progressive" gaming media, and his videos are not crusading or informative but have devolved into him preaching at his audience and how he's redefined a certain word, most recently censorship. Expect another video this week about censorship and how people who don't want the joke removed are awful crybabies who don't deserve an opinion.

The irony of it is lost on him because by taking this stance he's actually being anti-consumer. There's someone out here who wrote this poem and paid $500 for it to be in the game. To pander to the "offended" crowd on Twitter whilst ignoring an early investor and backer in your game is probably the most anti-consumer thing you can do. But expect Jim to ignore that because he has the subtlety of a brick through a glass window nowadays.

 

[Ambient_Malice]

This is what happens when people think the mere fact that they're offended entitles them to something. Can you imagine if Christians pulled this shit every time they encountered a piece of art that offended them? Don't forget Christians are slaughtered by the thousands every year just for being Christians. So if you buy a Dan Brown novel that questions the divinity of Christ you are literally responsible for young Christian women having acid thrown in their face and their throats slit and their houses burnt and their entire family sent to labor camps and stuff.

 

[Nazulu]

Yeah, I don't see anything extreme about this. The guy killed himself because of trauma I guess. It would upset many if something like this happened to them. It's just another one of those things in life.

It seems some here have linked this to violence to trans people in real life, as well as other jokes that are similar. That pretty much goes for everything though. A person with any sense would not attack trans people because of it, or for any joke made for that matter. Just because there are many violent impressionable nutcases out there, doesn't mean censoring everything is going to stop them, and we shouldn't base every moral decision around these bastards.

It should go with the people who are offended requesting it be removed, and then the artist can make a decision with no anger and violence ensuing. No one controlling no one. But all this has become is a storm of forcing your beliefs and opinions on others and that's it.

 

[chadachada123]

I got the impression that the "(wo)man" in the joke was in fact a cross-dresser. It's pretty sad that most of the people acting outraged by this seem to think that dressing in drag not only is no longer a thing, but also wouldn't have been plenty prevalent in the PoE setting (based on what I've read about the setting).

 

[StormShaun]

I don't know what to think of this.
On one hand, I'm a writer, and I know that this is a fictional world that probably doesn't take trans characters seriously ... or might even take them as a bad thing. The thing is, that fictional worlds are not the same as this one. I mean, jeez, this is magic, dragons, and all of that stuff. I wouldn't blame if the world creators/writers would want to get away from all of this real world stuff.

... yet it followed them.

Of course we shouldn't alienate players, but does this really alienate them? I'm not bothered to think about that. It's just that this seems to be taken way too seriously. People really should control themselves and not get angry over every little thing.

This is fiction, not reality.

Though I am a writer, so I am on one side of the scale. *shrug*
Whatever they do, it will probably still be a good game, it shouldn't harm it at all.

... I feel like buying it now.

EDIT: Ah, I see that it might be a crossdresser instead ... hmm, I still don't see much of a problem.

 

[endtherapture]

This is what happens when people think the mere fact that they're offended entitles them to something. Can you imagine if Christians pulled this shit every time they encountered a piece of art that offended them? Don't forget Christians are slaughtered by the thousands every year just for being Christians. So if you buy a Dan Brown novel that questions the divinity of Christ you are literally responsible for young Christian women having acid thrown in their face and their throats slit and their houses burnt and their entire family sent to labor camps and stuff.

You can't be offensive towards Christians because they hold instituationalised power duh, can't do anything bad to the oppressors at all mate

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

1. As many people have already pointed out, it was probably a crossdresser.

2. The fucking troglodyte renamed her twitter "Pillars of Erika" so this screams attention whore on the most shameless level I think I have ever seen. It's like she's fucking PROUD she's trying to start a controversy and she's put herself at the center of it.

God damn it Twitter is horrid.

 

[Phasmal]

Are we just going to ignore the fact that most gamers are much more offended at the idea of people taking offence than anything else?

Kinda tired of the whole `let's get outraged at the outrage` club.

Ok, here's the thing- someone had an issue with something in the game, they're trying to let the developers know. The developers then get to decide whether to change it or not. If they do decide to, I don't think that's censorship, and if they don't- fair enough.

I would suggest some things to the `outraged at outrage` club-

People are gonna have issues with stuff in games, if that sends you into a fury- I would suggest taking a chill pill. These things only get so huge because of people overreacting to the complaints.

 

[endtherapture]

Are we just going to ignore the fact that most gamers are much more offended at the idea of people taking offence than anything else?

Kinda tired of the whole `let's get outraged at the outrage` club.

Ok, here's the thing- someone had an issue with something in the game, they're trying to let the developers know. The developers then get to decide whether to change it or not. If they do decide to, I don't think that's censorship, and if they don't- fair enough.

I would suggest some things to the `outraged at outrage` club-

People are gonna have issues with stuff in games, if that sends you into a fury- I would suggest taking a chill pill. These things only get so huge because of people overreacting to the complaints.

Personally I don't care if people are offended at the game itself. People are going to get offended, that's just life. What I don't approve is that these people are trying to change the game, I'm invested in the development of this game, I pledged for the game and have been waiting nearly 3 years for the game. For some easily offended Twitter person to try and change the game barely 3 days after it has been out, that's what's annoying for me.

Just because you don't like the game, doesn't give you the right to demand it be changed, and in this case, us backers should be given a say in what happens given that we literally invested in the game.

 

[Phasmal]

Personally I don't care if people are offended at the game itself. People are going to get offended, that's just life. What I don't approve is that these people are trying to change the game, I'm invested in the development of this game, I pledged for the game and have been waiting nearly 3 years for the game. For some easily offended Twitter person to try and change the game barely 3 days after it has been out, that's what's annoying for me.

Just because you don't like the game, doesn't give you the right to demand it be changed, and in this case, us backers should be given a say in what happens given that we literally invested in the game.

You're right, changing the text on a gravestone would fundamentally change the game. Or... not.

And also we're talking about someone not liking something -in- the game, not someone not liking the game. It's not the same thing.
I'm sure the developers will decide what they want to do with it.

 

[endtherapture]

Personally I don't care if people are offended at the game itself. People are going to get offended, that's just life. What I don't approve is that these people are trying to change the game, I'm invested in the development of this game, I pledged for the game and have been waiting nearly 3 years for the game. For some easily offended Twitter person to try and change the game barely 3 days after it has been out, that's what's annoying for me.

Just because you don't like the game, doesn't give you the right to demand it be changed, and in this case, us backers should be given a say in what happens given that we literally invested in the game.

You're right, changing the text on a gravestone would fundamentally change the game. Or... not.

And also we're talking about someone not liking something -in- the game, not someone not liking the game. It's not the same thing.
I'm sure the developers will decide what they want to do with it.

You are aware someone PAID $500 to have that piece of text in the game? They invested a significant amount of money to have that flavour text in the game. To value the opinion of someone on Twitter over an investor in the game would encapsulate what is wrong with gaming right now.

 

[Phasmal]

You are aware someone PAID $500 to have that piece of text in the game? They invested a significant amount of money to have that flavour text in the game. To value the opinion of someone on Twitter over an investor in the game would encapsulate what is wrong with gaming right now.

Yeah, I'm aware of that.

So, let's assume that they decide they'd like to change it, and they contacted that backer, who was fine with changing it to something else- would that still be an outrage to you?

And `what is wrong with gaming right now` is exactly the kind of over-reacting that I'm talking about.
So tell me, what's wrong with gaming? That people could possibly maybe get something changed?

 

[endtherapture]

You are aware someone PAID $500 to have that piece of text in the game? They invested a significant amount of money to have that flavour text in the game. To value the opinion of someone on Twitter over an investor in the game would encapsulate what is wrong with gaming right now.

Yeah, I'm aware of that.

So, let's assume that they decide they'd like to change it, and they contacted that backer, who was fine with changing it to something else- would that still be an outrage to you?

And `what is wrong with gaming right now` is exactly the kind of over-reacting that I'm talking about.
So tell me, what's wrong with gaming? That people could possibly maybe get something changed?

No that would be fine because it is the backers choice.

What is wrong with gaming (and really the internet in general) is a minority of people deciding they don't like an aspect of the game, and demanding it changes because it offends them. You can't just do that. It is entitlement at its highest level.

 

[The Lunatic]

Ok, here's the thing- someone had an issue with something in the game, they're trying to let the developers know. The developers then get to decide whether to change it or not. If they do decide to, I don't think that's censorship, and if they don't- fair enough.

To be fair, when they're using terms such as "Pressure" and talking about it's "Not acceptable", that goes beyond taking issue with something and instead actively trying to get something censored.

It usually results in rabid "followers" of these people sending threats and hurling abuse at people. At least, based on what we've seen in the past.

Immature people complain about stuff they can't handle, lose their shit and then throw it at the walls until they get what they want. I think you're trying to paint it far more nobly than it actually is.

 

[Phasmal]

What is wrong with gaming (and really the internet in general) is a minority of people deciding they don't like an aspect of the game, and demanding it changes because it offends them. You can't just do that. It is entitlement at its highest level.

Yeah but you can just do that.
I mean, Mass Effect ending, anyone? We had the whole entitlement argument over that too.

And then the developers of the game or whatever can completely ignore you, if they choose to. Or they can decide to change something, which is usually something small that doesn't matter. I really do not see that as a threat to gaming as a whole.

You might say that's entitled, fair enough, that's your opinion- but let's take this one as an example.

ASSUMING that the backer who wrote that joke did not intend to come off as transphobic and changes it to something else, you said that would be fine because it's their choice- well, often game developers do things that come off a certain way that they didn't want and change them- so that's fine too, right?
But we still get the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the `offended people should just shut up` crowd.

 

[Andy Shandy]

[sub]Of course this managed to get 9 fucking pages >.<[/sub]

Honestly, when I first saw it, I thought the initial tweet was a bit of an over-reaction. I thought any "joke" (not that the poem was funny at all) was at the expense of the "hero" more than anything else. However, looking it over again, I can also understand how upsetting a "joke" about someone committing suicide because the person they slept with could be trans would be.

And somehow yet again, much like the Fable incident from a few days ago, it's the reaction to the reaction that I find the stupidest.

 

[endtherapture]

What is wrong with gaming (and really the internet in general) is a minority of people deciding they don't like an aspect of the game, and demanding it changes because it offends them. You can't just do that. It is entitlement at its highest level.

Yeah but you can just do that.
I mean, Mass Effect ending, anyone? We had the whole entitlement argument over that too.

And then the developers of the game or whatever can completely ignore you, if they choose to. Or they can decide to change something, which is usually something small that doesn't matter. I really do not see that as a threat to gaming as a whole.

You might say that's entitled, fair enough, that's your opinion- but let's take this one as an example.

ASSUMING that the backer who wrote that joke did not intend to come off as transphobic and changes it to something else, you said that would be fine because it's their choice- well, often game developers do things that come off a certain way that they didn't want and change them- so that's fine too, right?
But we still get the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the `offended people should just shut up` crowd.

Well the result of the Mass Effect ending debacle was that the complainers should shut up, because artistic integrity rules and if you don't like it you have to live with it right?

This "controversy" is different anyway because you'd be taking away a product someone has paid for specifically if you do anything about it. Why should an investor in Pillars of Eternity have their product and memorial taken away from them because someone offended? That's saying this persons feelings are more important than the initial backers feelings + money. It would also open up Obsidian to a whole load of shit and PR from their core fans if they were ever to do a Kickstarter again, as they would not be trusted any more to deliver on their products.

Especially given that the whole thing is just a load of fun and you have to do some insane mental gymnastics to even begin to take offense to a poem hidden in the back end of a 80 hour RPG title.

There's a whole lot of wailing from both sides (and you ironically are wailing yourself now, saying that the "offended people should just shut up crowd" should now do the shutting up) but I'd hope that Obsidian put their core fanbase and backers of the game as priority ahead of the "I am offended, CHANGE IT" crowd.