Offensive Media and You

[Something Amyss]

So this is coming up specifically because I made a post in the Star Wars thread about media that's aged poorly. It's not 100% relevant to the topic, but it's part of it. It got me thinking about shows I watch anyway, from the old Looney Toons with "Injun Joe" or big-lipped black stereotypes to...well....

I'm watching Seven Deadly Sins right now, and anyone who's watched it probably knows Meliodas is incredibly grabby. And frequently so. Pervs in anime aren't exactly uncommon. I find Meliodas' actions to be uncomfortable, but...I've made it into the second season.

While I'd like to see women as things other than objects to be groped, I don't think I've ever stopped watching something specifically because a woman's been groped or grabbed or framed as a nookie delivery system or whatever.

So I'm trying to think of any programming I've stopped watching because I had any problem other than "I'm not entertained." Like, I had some friends get surprised I liked Kate McKinnon in Ghostbusters because she said some transphobic things or whatever, but I don't really care. Holtzman was the best part of the movie. The rest of it's what let me down. At the same time, it doesn't matter whether...I dunno, Larry the Cable Guy comes out on stage and does a Nazi salute, because I was never going to watch him in the first place. And while I don't particularly go out of my way to follow conservative comedians, I have enjoyed a fair amount of Tim Allen's stuff, for example. Not enough to follow him religiously, but I can't think of any comedian I actually follow religiously since the death of Carlin. Even Tim Minchin I follow more agnostically (I'm not sure if he exists, but I will follow him just to be safe).

I see people boycotting because of "SJWs" and "feminists" or "homophobia" and "racism", but like...I'm still watching Mel Brooks movies, and while intended as comedy, some of those jokes are incredibly freaking tacky. At the same time, I can't boycott Will & Grace or Roseanne (not that it's on anymore), because that would imply i was going to watch them in the first place.

This isn't supposed to be about how my way is better, though. I get curious about how people tick, and why they do what they do. And, specific to this thread I'm curious as to whether people have lines they don't cross and what the standards are. I'm curious if the reverse is also true, and people will go out of their way to support a property just because it appeals to their virtues, rather than based on any standards of quality or entertainment.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Hard to say. I don't think I've ever dropped something I otherwise liked because I found it in bad taste. I mean, I can acknowledge sexist or racist or homophobic elements in things I like and criticize them for it but I don't think I've ever boycotted anything on that reason alone.

I guess the closest I've come to this was refusing to pay for things made by people I don't want to support. There are multiple movies directed by Roman Polanski I like a lot but the man's a rapist and I won't risk ever giving him any of my money. Same for practically anything that features James Woods. He's a talented enough actor for sure but he's also pretty much a Nazi. And I could go on like that.

I don't think anything ever offended me much.

 

[Hawki]

Personally speaking, there isn't that much that I'd buy/watch/read/whatever on principle, and very little that I'd boycott on principle. I mean, I did buy BF5 on principle, but solely because of the way the conversation turned, being framed in a manner that basically stated "you can only have an opinion if you're buying it," said opinion being the presence of playable female soldiers was a non-issue. Having since played singleplayer and multiplayer, I can soundly say that it IS a non-issue...and that the game has a plenthora of other problems instead.

Still, that aside, most of the time I can let it pass. For instance, your example with Kate McKinnon, my own would probably be Orson Scott Card. While I disagree with his views on homosexuality, I still really enjoy (most of) the Enderverse series. And while that series does represent his views in some ways (e.g. 'Speaker for the Dead' has an intro where he details his idea of using 'speakers' at funerals), I can hardly call the books themselves homophobic. Or, Mel Brooks - thinking back a few years, I think I acknowledged that Mel Brooks has a bit of a shady history, but I can't/couldn't deny that Hacksaw Ridge was an excellent film. I think one can separate the art from the artist, at least when it comes to enjoying the work, though if you're carrying out analysis of the work, you should be aware of the author's views (e.g. if you were writing an essay on 1984, you should probably acknowledge Orwell's own personal beliefs, and consider how they feed into the work itself).

As for stuff that I find objectionable within the work itself...well, really depends what I'm objecting to, and how pervasive it becomes. This isn't too much an issue for me nowadays, because once I start reading/watching/playing something, I resolve to take it through to the end regardless of my feelings. For instance, after watching the first two seasons of Adventure Time, I can safely say that I have no desire to watch any more of it...but that's because I find AT loud, crude, obnoxious, and absolutely vapid, not out of any stance of moral principle, because really, there's nothing to be principled about. I mean, if you were put off by the pervy aspects of Deadly Sins (and having watched the first episode...bleh, they're really offputting), I wouldn't call you a snowflake, but would that be enough to stop me from watching? Dunno. Caught the first episode on Netflix by chance, but haven't gone back to it because other things to watch/play/whatever.

Basically, TL, DR, I rarely boycott/consume things out of principle, and I can usually separate the art from the artist. But people are free to do these things. I may disagree with those reasons (I can only roll my eyes at anyone saying "I'm gonna boycott BF5 because it's got girls in it), but they can choose to consume what they want.

 

[McElroy]

I guess the closest I've come to this was refusing to pay for things made by people I don't want to support.

But that's the whole capitalist economic system! Raise up, comrades!

OT: All in good fun. I enjoy really mean, you could even say foul stuff. Like, if somebody on impulse says something sexist, racist, immature, or insensitive that's just funny to me. I often complain that media that I think is utter garbage has its fans and demographics, but I wouldn't say I'm offended by that. It just sucks that it ended up that way.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

The only show I ever stopped watching because I didn't enjoy it was Drag Race. Its just not for me. A GF tried to get me to watch it, and I just can't.
Doesn't offend me, but its just not something I'm interested in. Good for them for being on the show and having passion, its just not something I enjoy watching.

For media, unless someone is deliberately trying to offend me(or you) its really hard to get offended. Like if Drag Race was actually 'Ru Paul's Drag Race set to the tune of Fuck you SilentPony, here's his address, go kill his puppy' yeah I'll take issue with it. But outside of that, there's no media out there worth getting worked up over. Just close the window or change the channel.

 

[CaitSeith]

If it has offensive content, I usually cringe, sigh and if by the end it doesn't have any redeeming value, I put it away, look for something different and forget about it. I try to actively avoid those situations though (there is better stuff to watch/read/play than stuff that's offensive just for the sake of being offensive/edgy).

About the artists side, the line is when paying them will cause or perpetuate harm to others (although in the social side, I have traced the line only with Doug TenNapel for donating part of his game's revenue to anti-trans organizations).

Usually I'm more on tracing the line on art that exploits their consumers.

 

[twistedmic]

I stopped ordering Papa John's pizza about nine or ten years ago when the Affordable Care act went into effect and the owner publicly announced that he was cutting employee hours (thus denying them health care) to avoid being "forced" to raise the cost of each individual pizza by twenty-five cents. At the same time Papa John's pizza boxes were emblazoned with a story/note of how he spent $275,000 hunting down and buying his old car back. That just pissed me off enough that I vowed to never buy Papa John's pizza ever again.

 

[Saelune]

Most left-wingers are not the ultra-sensitive 'snowflakes' the right-wing ultra-sensitive snowflakes claim we are. They say shit like 'The Office could never be made today' while ignoring that characters like Michael Scott are MOCKING 'the good intentioned bigot'. I also laugh a lot at jokes 'at my expense'.

I don't watch shit like Roseanne cause Roseanne betrayed the entire concept of the show. I've watched and can still watch shows like Home Improvement, even though Tim Allen is a shitty person, cause Home Improvement was never about feminism to begin with.

 

[sXeth]

The Wrastling does tend to hit the offensive mark more often then not, but in more recent times it generally adjusts to a usually bad reaction well enough. Its also usually the heel(bad guy) doing that sort of schtick, so it comes more or as a cheap/tacky way to get their heat, which can derail the character but isn't wholly detrimental to the product.


In the "Creator does bad thing but art does not reflect" music is certainly chock full of those. I'd probably be disposed to cut my consumption of artists where they're still actively doing things, non-remorseful, and such situations where I'd be directly funding their ambitions (such as Lostprophets, don't google that if you don't have a strong stomach).

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Personally speaking, there isn't that much that I'd buy/watch/read/whatever on principle, and very little that I'd boycott on principle. I mean, I did buy BF5 on principle, but solely because of the way the conversation turned, being framed in a manner that basically stated "you can only have an opinion if you're buying it," said opinion being the presence of playable female soldiers was a non-issue. Having since played singleplayer and multiplayer, I can soundly say that it IS a non-issue...and that the game has a plenthora of other problems instead.

Still, that aside, most of the time I can let it pass. For instance, your example with Kate McKinnon, my own would probably be Orson Scott Card. While I disagree with his views on homosexuality, I still really enjoy (most of) the Enderverse series. And while that series does represent his views in some ways (e.g. 'Speaker for the Dead' has an intro where he details his idea of using 'speakers' at funerals), I can hardly call the books themselves homophobic. Or, Mel Brooks - thinking back a few years, I think I acknowledged that Mel Brooks has a bit of a shady history, but I can't/couldn't deny that Hacksaw Ridge was an excellent film. I think one can separate the art from the artist, at least when it comes to enjoying the work, though if you're carrying out analysis of the work, you should be aware of the author's views (e.g. if you were writing an essay on 1984, you should probably acknowledge Orwell's own personal beliefs, and consider how they feed into the work itself).

As for stuff that I find objectionable within the work itself...well, really depends what I'm objecting to, and how pervasive it becomes. This isn't too much an issue for me nowadays, because once I start reading/watching/playing something, I resolve to take it through to the end regardless of my feelings. For instance, after watching the first two seasons of Adventure Time, I can safely say that I have no desire to watch any more of it...but that's because I find AT loud, crude, obnoxious, and absolutely vapid, not out of any stance of moral principle, because really, there's nothing to be principled about. I mean, if you were put off by the pervy aspects of Deadly Sins (and having watched the first episode...bleh, they're really offputting), I wouldn't call you a snowflake, but would that be enough to stop me from watching? Dunno. Caught the first episode on Netflix by chance, but haven't gone back to it because other things to watch/play/whatever.

Basically, TL, DR, I rarely boycott/consume things out of principle, and I can usually separate the art from the artist. But people are free to do these things. I may disagree with those reasons (I can only roll my eyes at anyone saying "I'm gonna boycott BF5 because it's got girls in it), but they can choose to consume what they want.

You have Mel Brooks (of Blazing Saddles, Space Balls etc fame) confused with Mel Gibson (Braveheart, Lethal Weapon etc fame).

 

[Hawki]

You have Mel Brooks (of Blazing Saddles, Space Balls etc fame) confused with Mel Gibson (Braveheart, Lethal Weapon etc fame).

...fuck!

 

[Squilookle]

So... I love the Tintin books, and I tracked down the very first volumes (Tintin in the land of the Soviets and Tintin in the Congo) for completionism. And unlike the latter books... hoo boy are these two problematic, especially Congo. In that one, all black people are big lipped stereotypes that support the narrow minded colonial way of thinking Belgium had at the time, Tintin goes out big game hunting and inadvertently massacres a whole herd of antelope, drills a hole in the hide of a Rhino and dynamites it, and all sort of things that would not fly to day at all.

And you know what? I know full well that it was borne of the collective opinions of everyday Belgians at the time. I know that Belgium, and the creator Herge in particular moved on from that perspective not long after, and so I can enjoy these books as a time capsule of a way of thinking during a particular point of history. Do I agree with their sentiment? Not even slightly. But I also don't allow myself to be 'triggered' by something made in a very, very different time, by very different mindsets.

It's also why I think it's a bit pathetic changing the kids names in The Magic Faraway Tree. If people can't handle kids with names like Dick and Fanny just because they blush at the sound of it, then they shouldn't be reading fiction in the first place.

 

[Something Amyss]

Most left-wingers are not the ultra-sensitive 'snowflakes' the right-wing ultra-sensitive snowflakes claim we are. They say shit like 'The Office could never be made today' while ignoring that characters like Michael Scott are MOCKING 'the good intentioned bigot'. I also laugh a lot at jokes 'at my expense'.

I usually hear it with All in the Family or Blazing Saddles. It's like....you do understand pretty much everyone was laughing at Archie, and that the racists were the bad guys in both instances, right? These are...you know, kind of big deals.

Kind of a difference between Kramer calling someone the n-word and it being used in a movie in the first place.

The Wrastling does tend to hit the offensive mark more often then not, but in more recent times it generally adjusts to a usually bad reaction well enough. Its also usually the heel(bad guy) doing that sort of schtick, so it comes more or as a cheap/tacky way to get their heat, which can derail the character but isn't wholly detrimental to the product.

I watched pro wrestling for years and it surprised like almost everyone I knew. I don't so much anymore because I tried and couldn't get into the new roster, not so much anything political.

They do tacky and sometimes even outright tasteless stuff, but it never really stopped me.

In the "Creator does bad thing but art does not reflect" music is certainly chock full of those. I'd probably be disposed to cut my consumption of artists where they're still actively doing things, non-remorseful, and such situations where I'd be directly funding their ambitions (such as Lostprophets, don't google that if you don't have a strong stomach).

This one made me think of Moxy Fr?vous, because I was a fan in high school and into college and still have a couple of songs on my playlist. Specially, I really like their cover of "Psycho Killer." After the allegations of sexual assault and some testimonials from people who had known him for years, the presence of Jian Ghomeshi in the group left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't think I'd spend any money supporting a project he was in, but I'm not going to delete the MP3s or destroy the CDs I paid for years ago, either. Probably does't hurt that other members denounced him. I don't know if I'd be able to keep a positive association with an act that hadn't.

To be clear, since sexual assault has been a touchy issue in other subforums here, I'm not saying "lock him up." I'm just pretty sure I wouldn't be comfortable supporting him financially.

And I guess when it comes down to it, a lot of it would come down to the severity. I'm probably not going to support a child molester even if I really like their music/TV/comedy, but as far as I know, this is only a hypothetical. I hope it's a hypothetical. I don't know.

I was thinking more "says stupid things", but since your post brought Jian Ghomeshi to mind, it gave me something to chew on.

This got dark.

I stopped ordering Papa John's pizza about nine or ten years ago when the Affordable Care act went into effect and the owner publicly announced that he was cutting employee hours (thus denying them health care) to avoid being "forced" to raise the cost of each individual pizza by twenty-five cents. At the same time Papa John's pizza boxes were emblazoned with a story/note of how he spent $275,000 hunting down and buying his old car back. That just pissed me off enough that I vowed to never buy Papa John's pizza ever again.

These are usually hypotheticals for me. I mean, we have a Starbucks, but I'm fine with their seasonal holiday cups and wouldn't protest even if I did drink coffee. There was a Papa John's about an hour from here that I never went to, but mostly because it was an hour from here. There's no Chick Fil-a within an hour of me, and when I just looked, the locales that are remotely close are in places I'd have no real reason to be, so I'd pretty much have to go out of my way to find a reason to not eat there. Them I might make a point of not showing up to.

 

[Saelune]

Most left-wingers are not the ultra-sensitive 'snowflakes' the right-wing ultra-sensitive snowflakes claim we are. They say shit like 'The Office could never be made today' while ignoring that characters like Michael Scott are MOCKING 'the good intentioned bigot'. I also laugh a lot at jokes 'at my expense'.

I usually hear it with All in the Family or Blazing Saddles. It's like....you do understand pretty much everyone was laughing at Archie, and that the racists were the bad guys in both instances, right? These are...you know, kind of big deals.

Kind of a difference between Kramer calling someone the n-word and it being used in a movie in the first place.

While also ignoring that the 'more wholesome' shows really would appeal more to right-wing Christians. And also ignoring that most pro-censorship watchdog groups are right-wing Christian groups complaining about gays corrupting children.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I can be offended by media in many ways, and most will just result in a sigh. Even when I really like something I'll still get "offended", because there's always something I'll take a little bit of an issue with, like 'I wish they'd changed that line just a little', or 'If only that delivery was a bit more on-point'. I generally get more offended by (what I perceive to be) bad quality than bad taste. I felt worse sitting through John Wick 2 than I did watching the first episode of Goblin Slayer. (But Goblin Slayer is still shit.)

When it comes to people though, I do feel uncomfortable watching things I used to like knowing what they were or are up to. The first such instance being with O.J. Simpson and the Naked Gun movies. I still love the first one, but yeah.. Jeffery Jones is a recent one. Ferris Bueler's Day off, Beetlejuice, Ed Wood; all of them now are accompanied with 'that guy who was arrested for owning kiddie porn was in this'. Same with Roman Polanski. And not to compare him to these guys, but I find it slightly harder to enjoy Galaxy Quest now that Tim Allen has revealed himself to be kind of shit.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I can be offended by media in many ways, and most will just result in a sigh. Even when I really like something I'll still get "offended", because there's always something I'll take a little bit of an issue with, like 'I wish they'd changed that line just a little', or 'If only that delivery was a bit more on-point'. I generally get more offended by (what I perceive to be) bad quality than bad taste. I felt worse sitting through John Wick 2 than I did watching the first episode of Goblin Slayer. (But Goblin Slayer is still shit.)

When it comes to people though, I do feel uncomfortable watching things I used to like knowing what they were or are up to. The first such instance being with O.J. Simpson and the Naked Gun movies. I still love the first one, but yeah.. Jeffery Jones is a recent one. Ferris Bueler's Day off, Beetlejuice, Ed Wood; all of them now are accompanied with 'that guy who was arrested for owning kiddie porn was in this'. Same with Roman Polanski. And not to compare him to these guys, but I find it slightly harder to enjoy Galaxy Quest now that Tim Allen has revealed himself to be kind of shit.

I'd find it harder to watch Galaxy Quest because Alan Rickman is no longer with us.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Not really an easy thing to answer. Where the line is in terms of offence I could not tell you, and more covert things in terms of messaging making my eyes-roll or sucking me out of the experience are very personal and probably not at all rational.

My attention span is so shot to pieces that I've not exactly been consuming much media for a while, so examples are hard to conjure up.

 

[Xprimentyl]

I?m a big fan of stand-up comedy, all stripes. A lot of acts are a mixture of the same ingredients: self-deprecation, sardonic takes on depression, relationships/marriage, politics, etc., and I like that stuff, but the stuff I don?t like are shock comics, those that spend an hour intending to be crude and offend/divide the audience. When sensitive and/or divisive subjects are addressed and made light of with an overt self-awareness, called out for their absurdity, it?s fine, but ?I?m just an all-around asshole? isn?t funny and isn?t something to build a comedic identity upon, so I avoid those types.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

I'm watching Seven Deadly Sins right now, and anyone who's watched it probably knows Meliodas is incredibly grabby. And frequently so. Pervs in anime aren't exactly uncommon. I find Meliodas' actions to be uncomfortable, but...I've made it into the second season.

Does the show itself present this as a bad thing though? If it presents his handsy approach in a negative light I imagine it would feel more tolerable, since the show is agreeing with you that the bad thing is a bad thing, than if he were glorified for it.

Don't think I've ever stopped watching something because I found it personally offensive. Closest I think I've gotten is watching a few of Frankie Boyle's skits but even then it was less "I find this offensive" and more "I don't find this funny" which is a bit of a failing for a comedy

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

It's difficult to take offense from people who are trying so hard to give it, try-hards just test the extent of one's pity for twats. But then media that doesn't realise it might be offending some due to old fashioned sensibilities tends to come off more as quaint and out-of-touch. There's not anything I can think of so far, perhaps the closest to ever feeling offense would be those that 'insult the intelligence.' However 'insult' is not the right word; more of a habitual phrasing, as the creative intentions are mass assuming non-critical thought of their audience and nothing personal in any way. That breeds depressive frustration instead as there's always the underlying knowledge that there are plenty of people who do non-critically consume the same media and that goes on to shape their world view and sometimes/often actions within the world towards other human.

There have been moments of quitting media if it does that, one particular example was a Christian propaganda film disguised as an apocalyptic disaster movie. But that's because I imagined the rest of whole 2 hours out in my head, realised there is literally nothing to learn or gain there except bitter disappointment, and decided time was far too precious to waste on predictable bullshit trying to convince me of eternal imaginary friend hugs. Not that anything with Christian theming is inherently bad, it's just that one was cheap, terrible, subtle as a sledgehammer and wholly unconvincing within the first 5 mins. If I'm gonna be preached at, it had better be damn well entertaining like black gospel! [small]It was called 'The Remaining' I believe, if anyone's actually curious.[/small]

Used to really be into shock value humour for a bit a long whiles ago, but the key part of that is 'shock' and once you've plundered each taboo, that's it...it's done. A very shallow pool with a very short shelf life that. You can mix it up but it still comes off as stale and second-hand. Humour in general relies on surprise, I think, and when people expect something, it lessens the impact considerably. It's why Frankie Boyle focuses far more on political commentary now than previously, and is all the better for it. Though am mighty curious of his Rex Royd comic book take on a superhero recently released.
The problem with certain comedians thinking being offensive without affording empathy is somehow 'shocking' is that it's far from shocking at all. It's old-fashioned, conservative, tired, weak, self-aggrandising, repetitive shit we've seen a thousand times before, from our own grandparents even. Bring something to light that society represses, is ashamed of, likes to ignore with the help of a conglomerate media empire that desires them to be positive, faithful little productive worker bees happy in pride and ignorance. Pull that dark shit out from the shadows so they have to look at it, have to face down the demons, and whether they retreat from it or not, they can't ignore it so easily. They can't claim ignorance without it presenting a visible facade.