Official Discussion about the new Forum Rules

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maddawg IAJI

I prefer the term "Zomguard"
Feb 12, 2009
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Swollen Goat said:
maddawg IAJI said:
So you're on a soapbox and preaching in a thread instead of going to a group that is comprised of staff members, Red guards and other users? Tell me now, which would be more productive? Talking to a staff member who receive all tickets from users, or sitting here and venting in a thread that I only look at anymore?
Looks like it, doesn't it? Is there a point to this? I get it-you don't agree. I think that's pretty much the end of this particular discussion, isn't it?
I'm pointing out the flaws in your logic of using this place as the center of your complaining. Any moderator is just gonna direct you to a staff member in the end or punish you for this form of immature behavior. All you're doing is making things worse for yourself, which is rather counter-productive.

But, whatever dude. I guess if you don't wanna take this further, then we can't really do much else on this. I'll alert a moderator that you're upset about this and maybe they can send you in the right direction.
 

Emergent

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Oct 26, 2010
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maddawg IAJI said:
They didn't change the rules, they updated them to prevent loopholes. Nothing on that list is new or intended to be new.
Simply stating that you have closed a loophole does not actually close any loopholes - it is just pretending they don't exist.

The Escapist moderators will not punish you for an opinion.
Yes they will. I have personally received a probation in the last week for stating that I was not impressed by a new series. I did not insult it, I stated that it was not as good as some of the entries in the film festival. When I responded "am I not allowed to state my opinion now?" in the auto-reply form, I was told "Not if it is negative." Please note that I was not told it was "being negative for the sake of being negative" (it most certainly wasn't, anyway, since it was making a comparison to content that the Escapist already owns - the film festival entries) I was told it was "being negative," which is a subtle but important distinction. Please note the absurdity in not only not being allowed to express dislike for content after clicking a "comments" link that is ostentatiously the indicated appropriate forum for such discourse by any reasonable standards on any comparable website, but further not even being able to express that you like other content on the site MORE than the content currently being discussed. To quote a physicist, it's Not Even Wrong*.

Just embarrassing.

tl;dr: Vague rules designed to make it more difficult to criticize administrative decisions is clearly disrespectful to the community, and yes you can be punished for voicing your opinion in a non-threatening way on this website at this time.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
 

maddawg IAJI

I prefer the term "Zomguard"
Feb 12, 2009
7,840
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Emergent said:
maddawg IAJI said:
They didn't change the rules, they updated them to prevent loopholes. Nothing on that list is new or intended to be new.
Simply stating that you have closed a loophole does not actually close any loopholes - it is just pretending they don't exist.

The Escapist moderators will not punish you for an opinion.
Yes they will. I have personally received a probation in the last week for stating that I was not impressed by a new series. I did not insult it, I stated that it was not as good as some of the entries in the film festival. When I responded "am I not allowed to state my opinion now?" in the auto-reply form, I was told "Not if it is negative." Please note that I was not told it was "being negative for the sake of being negative" (it most certainly wasn't, anyway, since it was making a comparison to content that the Escapist already owns - the film festival entries) I was told it was "being negative," which is a subtle but important distinction. Please note the absurdity in not only not being allowed to express dislike for content after clicking a "comments" link that is ostentatiously the indicated appropriate forum for such discourse by any reasonable standards on any comparable website, but further not even being able to express that you like other content on the site MORE than the content currently being discussed. To quote a physicist, it's Not Even Wrong*.

Just embarrassing.

tl;dr: Vague rules designed to make it more difficult to criticize administrative decisions is clearly disrespectful to the community, and yes you can be punished for voicing your opinion in a non-threatening way on this website at this time.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
Well we can't say that the rules changed at all. They're exactly as they were 4 months ago before they were enacted. The only difference being the "Don't be a Jerk" rule, which has always been an unwritten rule that the moderators used for punishment.

As for the inconsistencies, I'm not gonna pretend like they do not exist. I do see some people get away with trolling and others get punished for minor Low-Content posts. Its not a perfect system, but it works 90% of the time. As for your post, looking at it, you're posting in a manner that comes off as sarcastic. Despite that, I would argue on your side. The moderator had no grounds to make the decision they did and the warning is unjustified.
 

Emergent

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Oct 26, 2010
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I'm not being sarcastic. It happened just as I described it. My tone is aggrieved, however, and I feel appropriately so.

As to the rules not changing... ahm... yes they have. I understand you feel the "spirit" of the rules have not changed, but the letter of the law (and therefore the constraints and culture of enforcement behind them) has most certainly been changed - and deliberately.
 

maddawg IAJI

I prefer the term "Zomguard"
Feb 12, 2009
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Emergent said:
I'm not being sarcastic. It happened just as I described it. My tone is aggrieved, however, and I feel appropriately so.

As to the rules not changing... ahm... yes they have. I understand you feel the "spirit" of the rules have not changed, but the letter of the law (and therefore the constraints and culture of enforcement behind them) has most certainly been changed - and deliberately.
Then you should hold back on your negative comments then, especially if you say you're going to in your own post.

As for the code, no, they have not changed. Phrasing them differently has hardly changed their intent or what falls along the lines of against the rules.

Don't be a jerk
Everyone knew that it existed as an unwritten form of law on the site. It was even given as advice to newbies who wished not to be punished for mod wrath. Its only fitting that it be included, especially when most of the moderators used it as a reason for punish users who flamed others.

Have respect for others.
An Anti-flaming rule, just as it had been 4 months ago in the old code of conduct. It also includes the old "Keep the discussion on the content and not the creators rule." which god knows needs to be used for the Lisa Foiles threads.

Have Respect for the site and its content.

Don't use Ad-Blocking software, advocate piracy or sass the moderators for punishing you publicly. Pretty easy to understand.

Put some effort into your communication

No Low-content posts. Simple enough

and lastly, Use our Forums appropriately

Don't advertise.

Each of these rules was part of the old code of conduct, they've been simplified and rewritten to cover a broader range. This new code is not just the 'spirit' of the old rules, it is the old set rules.
 

Emergent

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Oct 26, 2010
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What exactly is a "negative comment" anyway? Be as specific as possible. Bonus points if you can manage to do so without invoking your particular set of morals.

EDIT: on this
This new code is not just the 'spirit' of the old rules, it is the old set rules.
Yes, and I understand we are also now at war with Eurasia.

We have always been at war with Eurasia.
 

Valksy

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Nov 5, 2009
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I admit to being astonished to receive a system message warning about cursing and being told that this is a "PG-13 Site"

Really?

Is that because people have to be 13 years or older to have an account here? I understood that was due to the federal Children's Online Privacy Protection Act of 1998 rather than an expression of intended content here (under the legislation, it isn't legal to ask under 13 year olds for personal data like their email address or their name)

But given that, like many, I followed Yahtzee here and given that his content is edgy, cursey and often explicit, I am boggled to hear that anyone considers this place PG-13. In fact, that seems very anti what much of the site is about - Escapist does a good job in reminding people that gaming is not the preserve of children (indeed the warning "this site is PG-13" is essentially saying "will no one think of the children!?!!")

What counts as PG-13 language? (I could tell you chapter and verse of BBFC rules, but outside my own country I'm less sure). Th S-word but not the F-word? The T-word but neither C-word (I consider both male and female C-words equal and don't get why the female one is more "offensive" to people).

//shrug

It's news to me anyway.
 

maddawg IAJI

I prefer the term "Zomguard"
Feb 12, 2009
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Valksy said:
I admit to being astonished to receive a system message warning about cursing and being told that this is a "PG-13 Site"

Really?

Is that because people have to be 13 years or older to have an account here? I understood that was due to the federal Children's Online Privacy Protection Act of 1998 rather than an expression of intended content here (under the legislation, it isn't legal to ask under 13 year olds for personal data like their email address or their name)

But given that, like many, I followed Yahtzee here and given that his content is edgy, cursey and often explicit, I am boggled to hear that anyone considers this place PG-13. In fact, that seems very anti what much of the site is about - Escapist does a good job in reminding people that gaming is not the preserve of children (indeed the warning "this site is PG-13" is essentially saying "will no one think of the children!?!!")

What counts as PG-13 language? (I could tell you chapter and verse of BBFC rules, but outside my own country I'm less sure). Th S-word but not the F-word? The T-word but neither C-word (I consider both male and female C-words equal and don't get why the female one is more "offensive" to people).

//shrug

It's news to me anyway.
Wait wait wait, you got warned for swearing and cursing? That shouldn't be right. Would you mind linking me to the post you got warned for? The forum is PG-13, the content doesn't have to be, but I've never heard of anyone being warned for swearing and cursing. Heck, I do it all the time.

The only thing we seem to punish with the PG-13 rule is writing about sexual acts. I've seen RP'ers who tried to role play sexual intercourse get warn, but that's about the farthest they take it.
 

Valksy

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Nov 5, 2009
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maddawg IAJI said:
Wait wait wait, you got warned for swearing and cursing? That shouldn't be right. Would you mind linking me to the post you got warned for? The forum is PG-13, the content doesn't have to be, but I've never heard of anyone being warned for swearing and cursing. Heck, I do it all the time.

The only thing we seem to punish with the PG-13 rule is writing about sexual acts. I've seen RP'ers who tried to role play sexual intercourse get warn, but that's about the farthest they take it.
I did indeed. Copy paste:

Warning Details
Post: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/528.264545.10037243
Reason: Watch the language. Some cussing is allowed, but this is a PG 13 site.
 

maddawg IAJI

I prefer the term "Zomguard"
Feb 12, 2009
7,840
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Valksy said:
maddawg IAJI said:
Wait wait wait, you got warned for swearing and cursing? That shouldn't be right. Would you mind linking me to the post you got warned for? The forum is PG-13, the content doesn't have to be, but I've never heard of anyone being warned for swearing and cursing. Heck, I do it all the time.

The only thing we seem to punish with the PG-13 rule is writing about sexual acts. I've seen RP'ers who tried to role play sexual intercourse get warn, but that's about the farthest they take it.
I did indeed. Copy paste:

Warning Details
Post: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/528.264545.10037243
Reason: Watch the language. Some cussing is allowed, but this is a PG 13 site.
Ya, I'm on your side regarding the warning. The site may be PG-13, but as the mod said, cussing is allowed. A warning shouldn't be needed if it is allowed.
 

Yureina

Who are you?
May 6, 2010
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Spinwhiz said:
A few nights ago, I was having a typical discussion with a friend of mine when we started talking about some issues that affect our forum community. We ended up delving quite a bit into several different concepts, and the result is that several ideas came up in that conversation that both of us seemed to think quite highly of. My friend mentioned that I should probably share these ideas in order to try to get some potential feedback about it, and suggested that I post in this thread and that I quote this specific staff member as well. I wasn't quite... sure where else I could make this post, and I didn't want to send it as a PM to only one person. Although I am not quite ready to call this an "official proposal", I do think that, perhaps, the thoughts we came up with might be something to ponder, and possibly even implement. Or, perhaps, just a little exercise in pondering ideas. :eek:

So... I guess I'll go ahead and get to this.

What my friend and I were talking about was the uneasy, and sometimes antagonistic, relationship between the community and the moderators on this site. From what I observe, I notice that there seems to be a mistrust of the mods on this site, with complaints from members ranging from uneven modwrath patterns (AKA some people get in trouble, while others who "do worse" don't) and a general feeling that the authority of moderators on this site cannot be questioned or challenged by members of the community. From what I know however, these charges against the moderators on this site are not entirely fair. Nevertheless, the fact remains that there seem to be a fair number of people on this site who have taken issue with the way that moderators have handed actions on the forums in the past few months, and probably before that as well.

The discussion that my friend and I ended up having was an attempt to try to answer one question: How could the relationship between the community and the moderators of this site be improved?

The answers that came out in this discussion ended up having nothing whatsoever to do with trying to create new rules or structures, but rather to improve or simply publicize systems that already exist on this site, or can be very easily implemented. The theme that ran through the ideas that we came up with was that of transparency, or of trying to promote a greater level of communication between the community and moderators. As far as we were concerned, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the current rules that are in place, but miscommunication and doubts about how those rules are implemented seem to feed the mistrust. Trying to find ways to dispel those doubts and to clear up lingering questions about how this site is moderated, to us, seemed like a good course to follow.

One idea that came up was to have moderators, when taking action on the forums either in the form of modwrath or locking threads, express the reasons for said action being taking within the offending post or thread. While this is something that does occur already, it does not occur in every case. The result of this being that there are moderator actions taken that, to an outside observer, do not see the reason why action was taken. When that happens, unless a post or thread is so clearly out of line that is plain for all to see, all a member sees is that someone got in trouble, but having little idea what specifically that person did wrong, or what led the moderators to give a specific punishment. Without understanding why action has been taken, or why someone was suspended rather than probated for an apparently light offense, confusion and mistrust can easily breed. On the other hand, if a moderator taking action were to edit an offending post expressing what the person did to receive a punishment (or simply a warning), and possibly also put a link to the code of conduct within that edit, other members could have a better idea why specific action was taken, and so to understand what specifically a person did wrong. While it might not seem like such reasons are the "business" of the community at large, and especially so if a punishment was given due to a person's repeat offenses, stating why action was taken to me seems a better alternative than simply leaving bystanders uncertain about the rules or what was behind a moderator's involvement. Uncertainty about the reasons behind the actions of those in authority inevitably leads to suspicion and mistrust of that authority.

The second idea that was pondered was about the supposed ability of the moderators on this site to be able to wrath, delete posts, or close threads at their own discretion. To me however, I know that the moderators on this site, in fact, do have specific guidelines about their actions that, in fact, ensure that their powers are far from being absolute. What I didn't know however was that, apparently, there is a system in place that allows members who have been wrathed to appeal that action if they feel that a moderator acted unjust or too harshly against them. Since I myself have never been wrathed, this is something I didn't even know existed, and, after asking a few of my other friends, didn't seem to be known by several others as well. I snooped around a bit and found no mention of this system anywhere in the code of conduct or the other "official" threads about the rules of this site. Furthermore, not only does this appeal system exist, but, if a case has merit and it is found that a moderator made a wrong decision, that moderator can be held accountable for their actions. I do not know if a moderator who grossly exceeds their authority could be removed or not, but I would assume that that option is possible, even if it is one that would likely be as rare as the offense that would provoke it.

In my opinion, this existing appeal system is something that the community at large should be made aware of, and not just those who receive punishment. It is something that should be clearly mentioned in the forum code of conduct, so that those who see the forum rules also learn of the existence of this appeal option as well. As I said myself when I first learned of this, learning about an appeal system at the moment that I would need it would not be very reassuring to me, because, being something unknown to me, it is not a system that I would be able to reasonably believe actually worked or put any faith into. If, on the other hand, I knew that an appeal system existed before I was at the point that I needed it, I would be much more comfortable about it. This reversal might seem odd since I still would have had no personal experience with that appeal system, but actually there is something very important I am trying to say here. The value of an appeal system is less in its practical value, but in its symbolic value. In other words, that a member who feels that they have been wrongly punished by a moderator is capable of challenging that decision, getting it reversed, and seeing that moderator be held accountable is an example of a "check" on moderator authority. It is an example of the fact that mods on this site do not have absolute power, but in fact are also subject to rules and guidelines that they need to follow or to face the consequences. If members are able to believe that there are checks on the authority of the mods, even if the moments when moderators make unjust decisions are rare, then I would think that the community would be more comfortable dealing with them. The belief that authority can act arbitrarily or is not subject to restrictions, however unfounded those beliefs may be, is something that must be avoided at all costs.

While these are only two relatively simple ideas, the thought that lies behind it is what to me is most important. A list of established rules is always helpful in trying to help members subject to rules, but the manner of their implementation is just as important in my opinion. Those who are subject to rules need to be reassured that those rules will be applied fairly, the reasoning behind moderator actions being taken, and that that authority itself is also subject to guidelines and rules. Although this is not a perfect arrangement (there will always be those who dislike authority in general), it is, in my opinion, the best one possible in order to try to promote a better relationship between a community and those that wield power within it.

Although I am reasonably certain that the ideas that I have presented here, as well as the general theme behind them, are probably already within the minds of the moderators and staff of this site, I still felt it necessary to make this post and to present these ideas that my friend and I discussed. What has been written here is an attempt to try to come up with solutions that might help improve the relationship between the community and the moderators of this site. I am hopeful that the thoughts that I have presented in this post may help inspire further discussion or thinking about ideas to try to help further improve this forum community that we all share together. :3

Sincerely,
Yureina
 

Spinwhiz

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Oct 8, 2007
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Yureina said:
Awesome and well thought out ideas. I appreciate you taking the time to post this. While I currently cannot respond to it, I did want to at least let you know that I've read it and most parts agree with. We have been looking into a lot of these types of ideas already and appreciate you validating our thought process.

However, I want to try and respond to your ideas individually in the next couple of days and give you the response that is deserving of your time.

Until then, thank you.

Best,
Spin
 

Yureina

Who are you?
May 6, 2010
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Spinwhiz said:
Yureina said:
Awesome and well thought out ideas. I appreciate you taking the time to post this. While I currently cannot respond to it, I did want to at least let you know that I've read it and most parts agree with. We have been looking into a lot of these types of ideas already and appreciate you validating our thought process.

However, I want to try and respond to your ideas individually in the next couple of days and give you the response that is deserving of your time.

Until then, thank you.

Best,
Spin
Sounds good! I will be looking forward to hearing what you have to say about it. ^_^

- Rei
 

Spinwhiz

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Oct 8, 2007
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Hi Friends,

A lot of you have been giving us great ideas and it would take forever for me to call you all out individually, so I wanted to let everyone know what we are working on and the process for change. While I can't go into detail about some of the items, I at least wanted to let you know we are working on change for the better. Once these changes take place, I'll make sure to post them. Please do not post questions regarding any of these as I really am telling you all I can at this moment in time.

Anywho, here we go:


Many community members have requested a more consistent form of warning/suspension system, so one of the biggest changes we are going to be making is a restructuring of the current penalty system. The plan will place more structure behind the warning system and helping people to understand the rules of The Escapist forums. This will help all moderators moderate the same way across the board while giving the community a layout of how the system works.
We will also be expanding the rule set to include examples of each rule. This will hopefully help all community members get a better understanding of our rules.
We will have an updated rule regarding all "low content posts" with examples.
It has come to our attention that few people know about the appeal process, so there will be a layout on how to appeal any type of penalty or report someone/something, including moderators.


There are a couple other things in the works but this is what the vocal majority seem to be chatting about. So, here is what happens now. I write up a list of the changes I would like to see made, including how, why, information, etc. These requests will be sent to the "higher powers" and I will get feedback. From there, we make things happen to the best of our ability and whatever is given the go-ahead.

Again, I just wanted to give everyone a heads-up and let everyone know we are working to make the forums a better place. Everyone have a nice weekend.

Best,
Spin