Oh Kingdom Hearts, will you ever move forward instead of all over the place?

[FakeSympathy]

At least in Dark Souls series the devs drop clues here and there in the items and gears to give the players hints, thus creating viable theories and speculations.

But Kingdom Hearts? holy shit, it refuses to go forward.

The story in KH1 was easy enough to follow (since if was the first and little to no backstory was given). Kill heartlesses, seal the darkness in each world, defeat Ansem, rescue Kairi, listen to beautiful ending score.

But after Chain of Memories, it the confusion went from minor to big question mark. Who were the Organization XIII? Who is this Roxas? Why does he have key blade? where did he come from? That wasn't the real Ansem that I defeated in KH1? He was "Nobody" of xehanorth? Wait, Diz, out of blue, is revealed to be real Ansem? That's not Xehanorth, but Terra who has been taken over by the REAL Xehanorth? And now we learn about Aqua and Ventus as well?

Do you see where I'm going with this? I mean, I replayed the series multiple times to understand all this, but each entry just adds confusion to anyone who's new to the franchise. And now, they added foretellers into KH 2.8, which adds nothing but confusion. KH# seriously need to bring a A-game when it comes to lore and stroyline.

Okay, fine, 358/2 days explained some stuff for Organization XIII, and Re:Coded and Dream Drop Distance served as In-between sequels which will lead to the events of KHIII, but they still didn't help much to understand just what is going on.

 

[Fox12]

I'm pretty much done with the series. KH 2 edged dangerously close to being convoluted, but it at least managed to tie up all of its lose ends. If you ignore the dumb post credits teaser, the series really could have finished there. And I think it should have.

The nonsense we've seen since is just too much.

 

[SD-Fiend]

The Foretellers aren't really anything complicated. They're from the Mobile game Kingdom Hearts Unchained and exist to show how and why the Keyblade war was started. I personally don't find the series confusing but it is quite obviously intentionally convoluted. The series wouldn't have the same hook if it didn't leave you wanting answeres to questions you didn't ask.

we can expect Kingdom Hearts 3 to come out not soon so that'll clear up every single plot thread before creating an entirely series of questions that will be answered in all the spinoffs released on all the consoles you don't own.

 

[SmallHatLogan]

I might be repeating myself from other threads, but whatever.

I think Kingdom Hearts would've been great as a stand alone title. I think 1, Chain of Memories, and 2 would've been an okay trilogy but by KH 2 it's already starting to get overloaded with nonsense. Even Birth By Sleep would've been fine had they not left all the loose threads and just ended it with the bad guy winning and everyone else being dead (but of course no one in the Kingdom Hearts universe can stay dead). It could've been a stand alone story that also gives a bit of background into Xehanort.

The DS games were unnecessary and Dream Drop Distance was where the series lost me altogether. I was going to say it pushed my suspension of disbelief but the problem wasn't how believable it was but how stupid it was. So I have no interest in KH3 or this 2.8 bollocks.

 

[SweetShark]

If you take in account that you face 4 different kinds of "evil" entities which two of them aren't clear why they exist, I decided to wait for the next "with the number after the number 2" game....

But I digress. My interest will SKYROCKET when they reveal a proper trailer which shows the other Disney Worlds Sora and friends will visit. I so hope for a Marvel and Star Wars Universe.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Yeah I was done with the series after KH2. For one thing I didn't feel like buying all the different systems to play the spin-offs, but then I caught bits of the lore that had been thrown in in the spin-offs and thought it was convoluted as fuck. And one thing that really bugged my is that in the first game the Keyblade was introduced as this legendary item, and a key point they kept referring to it as THE Keyblade, not A Keyblade, but by the end of KH2 everyone and their dog is wielding one. Kinda diminishes the things legendary status there.

 

[meiam]

Yeah the spin off killed the series for me too, even chain of memory was one to many for me. Honestly if it was up to me I'd flat out make a remaster of 1 and declare the entire franchise reboot going forward and then make "KH: New 2" or something and just keep stuff simple with just heartless and Sora/Kairi/Riku and none of the other stuff. But what can you do, square enix has gone completely milking crazy and there killing there franchise.

 

[Asita]

Eh, I find the series convoluted but not particularly confusing. That being said, I found a good bit of the story to be somewhere between completely unnecessary[footnote]"And this installment's not-heartless are called unversed!". K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple, Stupid. You don't need a new race of soulless footsoldiers for each installment![/footnote] and detrimental[footnote]So the new Organization XIII is comprised entirely of Xehanort because wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey. That's needlessly complicated! Just have disciples of his try to bring his plans to fruition![/footnote].

That also being said, the main reason I stepped away from the franchise is actually pragmatism. I got Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2 on the PS2, and Chain of Memories on the GBA...then they released Coded for mobile devices, and 358/2 Days on the DS, Birth by Sleep on the PSP, Dream Drop Distance on the 3DS, then the remastered collection for the PS3, and 2.8 is for the PS4...

I didn't bother with anything after KH2 because I lacked the necessary hardware, and by Birth By Sleep I wrote the franchise off as too much of a financial investment. It's not worth buying a PSP just to play one game and then toss it aside when the next game requires that you get a PS3. I was half expecting them to announce the next title as Xbox exclusive.

 

[Dalisclock]

It's pretty much suffering from Assassins Creed Syndrome. Sure, they could move the actual plot along and wrap the story up, but then they wouldn't be able to keep making more games for you to buy.

 

[Fox12]

Yeah I was done with the series after KH2. For one thing I didn't feel like buying all the different systems to play the spin-offs, but then I caught bits of the lore that had been thrown in in the spin-offs and thought it was convoluted as fuck. And one thing that really bugged my is that in the first game the Keyblade was introduced as this legendary item, and a key point they kept referring to it as THE Keyblade, not A Keyblade, but by the end of KH2 everyone and their dog is wielding one. Kinda diminishes the things legendary status there.

It also messes up the (somewhat goofy) symbolism of the keyblade. There were always two key blades. And what was Sora's key called? The kingdom key.

The keys to the kingdom were the two keys that opened up the gates to heaven in catholicism. Kingdom hearts was supposed to be heaven, and the two kingdom keys were supposed to be the way to open the gate. Then kh 2 came out, and all that got thrown out the window. Now everyone and their grandma gets a key blade.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Yeah I was done with the series after KH2. For one thing I didn't feel like buying all the different systems to play the spin-offs, but then I caught bits of the lore that had been thrown in in the spin-offs and thought it was convoluted as fuck. And one thing that really bugged my is that in the first game the Keyblade was introduced as this legendary item, and a key point they kept referring to it as THE Keyblade, not A Keyblade, but by the end of KH2 everyone and their dog is wielding one. Kinda diminishes the things legendary status there.

It also messes up the (somewhat goofy) symbolism of the keyblade. There were always two key blades. And what was Sora's key called? The kingdom key.

The keys to the kingdom were the two keys that opened up the gates to heaven in catholicism. Kingdom hearts was supposed to be heaven, and the two kingdom keys were supposed to be the way to open the gate. Then kh 2 came out, and all that got thrown out the window. Now everyone and their grandma gets a key blade.

I didn't know about the parallels to Catholicism, but I compare it to the Super Saiyan transformation in Dragon Ball Z. When it was first introduced it was supposed to be this thing of legend, not seen for a thousand years. Fast forward 2 arcs later and everyone and their dog is a Super Saiyan. I believe it was even lampshaded at one point.
And didn't they introduce a "keyblade war" or something in which entire armies had keyblades, and a "super keybllade" (I forget what it was called). I got most of this for the Lore in a Minute series on YouTube which isn't always accurate so I might not know what I'm talking about.

 

[Fox12]

Yeah I was done with the series after KH2. For one thing I didn't feel like buying all the different systems to play the spin-offs, but then I caught bits of the lore that had been thrown in in the spin-offs and thought it was convoluted as fuck. And one thing that really bugged my is that in the first game the Keyblade was introduced as this legendary item, and a key point they kept referring to it as THE Keyblade, not A Keyblade, but by the end of KH2 everyone and their dog is wielding one. Kinda diminishes the things legendary status there.

It also messes up the (somewhat goofy) symbolism of the keyblade. There were always two key blades. And what was Sora's key called? The kingdom key.

The keys to the kingdom were the two keys that opened up the gates to heaven in catholicism. Kingdom hearts was supposed to be heaven, and the two kingdom keys were supposed to be the way to open the gate. Then kh 2 came out, and all that got thrown out the window. Now everyone and their grandma gets a key blade.

I didn't know about the parallels to Catholicism, but I compare it to the Super Saiyan transformation in Dragon Ball Z. When it was first introduced it was supposed to be this thing of legend, not seen for a thousand years. Fast forward 2 arcs later and everyone and their dog is a Super Saiyan. I believe it was even lampshaded at one point.
And didn't they introduce a "keyblade war" or something in which entire armies had keyblades, and a "super keybllade" (I forget what it was called). I got most of this for the Lore in a Minute series on YouTube which isn't always accurate so I might not know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, that sums it up. That's the point where I groaned and shook my head. There are likely tens of thousands of keyblades in existence, according to Birth by Sleep, which was a total mess. They tried to remedy this somewhat by saying that there were two super unique keyblades called the X-blades, but it all sounded like a bunch of waffle. I miss the simplicity of the first game. You're DBZ comparison is completely on point. The key blade was supposed to be a special weapon, but now it just feels like any mass produced tool. Anyone whose actually supposed to be useful ends up with a key blade.

Kingdom Hearts, like Final Fantasy, has given way to the worst excesses of Square Enix. They just don't know how to tell stories anymore.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Yeah I was done with the series after KH2. For one thing I didn't feel like buying all the different systems to play the spin-offs, but then I caught bits of the lore that had been thrown in in the spin-offs and thought it was convoluted as fuck. And one thing that really bugged my is that in the first game the Keyblade was introduced as this legendary item, and a key point they kept referring to it as THE Keyblade, not A Keyblade, but by the end of KH2 everyone and their dog is wielding one. Kinda diminishes the things legendary status there.

It also messes up the (somewhat goofy) symbolism of the keyblade. There were always two key blades. And what was Sora's key called? The kingdom key.

The keys to the kingdom were the two keys that opened up the gates to heaven in catholicism. Kingdom hearts was supposed to be heaven, and the two kingdom keys were supposed to be the way to open the gate. Then kh 2 came out, and all that got thrown out the window. Now everyone and their grandma gets a key blade.

I didn't know about the parallels to Catholicism, but I compare it to the Super Saiyan transformation in Dragon Ball Z. When it was first introduced it was supposed to be this thing of legend, not seen for a thousand years. Fast forward 2 arcs later and everyone and their dog is a Super Saiyan. I believe it was even lampshaded at one point.
And didn't they introduce a "keyblade war" or something in which entire armies had keyblades, and a "super keybllade" (I forget what it was called). I got most of this for the Lore in a Minute series on YouTube which isn't always accurate so I might not know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, that sums it up. That's the point where I groaned and shook my head. There are likely tens of thousands of keyblades in existence, according to Birth by Sleep, which was a total mess. They tried to remedy this somewhat by saying that there were two super unique keyblades called the X-blades, but it all sounded like a bunch of waffle. I miss the simplicity of the first game. You're DBZ comparison is completely on point. The key blade was supposed to be a special weapon, but now it just feels like any mass produced tool. Anyone whose actually supposed to be useful ends up with a key blade.

Kingdom Hearts, like Final Fantasy, has given way to the worst excesses of Square Enix. They just don't know how to tell stories anymore.

Were they called X-blades? I thought that might be it, but then I thought no, that can't be right. In any case, given that there was once thousands of Keyblade wielders battling it out over... something there might as well be a vending machine that dispenses them. I first noticed this when playing KH2 when Riku casually tosses Kairi a Keyblade like he was loaning her his pencil.

Much like a lot of these companies, Square-Enix has gotten much too big for it's britches and is motivated more by the desire to make money than by the desire to create anything meaningful.

 

[Fox12]

Yeah I was done with the series after KH2. For one thing I didn't feel like buying all the different systems to play the spin-offs, but then I caught bits of the lore that had been thrown in in the spin-offs and thought it was convoluted as fuck. And one thing that really bugged my is that in the first game the Keyblade was introduced as this legendary item, and a key point they kept referring to it as THE Keyblade, not A Keyblade, but by the end of KH2 everyone and their dog is wielding one. Kinda diminishes the things legendary status there.

It also messes up the (somewhat goofy) symbolism of the keyblade. There were always two key blades. And what was Sora's key called? The kingdom key.

The keys to the kingdom were the two keys that opened up the gates to heaven in catholicism. Kingdom hearts was supposed to be heaven, and the two kingdom keys were supposed to be the way to open the gate. Then kh 2 came out, and all that got thrown out the window. Now everyone and their grandma gets a key blade.

I didn't know about the parallels to Catholicism, but I compare it to the Super Saiyan transformation in Dragon Ball Z. When it was first introduced it was supposed to be this thing of legend, not seen for a thousand years. Fast forward 2 arcs later and everyone and their dog is a Super Saiyan. I believe it was even lampshaded at one point.
And didn't they introduce a "keyblade war" or something in which entire armies had keyblades, and a "super keybllade" (I forget what it was called). I got most of this for the Lore in a Minute series on YouTube which isn't always accurate so I might not know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, that sums it up. That's the point where I groaned and shook my head. There are likely tens of thousands of keyblades in existence, according to Birth by Sleep, which was a total mess. They tried to remedy this somewhat by saying that there were two super unique keyblades called the X-blades, but it all sounded like a bunch of waffle. I miss the simplicity of the first game. You're DBZ comparison is completely on point. The key blade was supposed to be a special weapon, but now it just feels like any mass produced tool. Anyone whose actually supposed to be useful ends up with a key blade.

Kingdom Hearts, like Final Fantasy, has given way to the worst excesses of Square Enix. They just don't know how to tell stories anymore.

Do you have a Source for this?

Not trying to call you a liar, I just find it hard to believe that any concept in this Series was ever that thought true when everything else is clearly being made up along as they go.

Also, like I said, I haven't played 3D yet, but isn't there only one X-Blade ( KEY-BLADE)? I believe the idea was that it required 2 Hearts, 1 of Darkness and 1 of Light, equal in Power to collide, which was what was done with Ventus and Vanitas...or did I miss something?

A source for which part? The religious stuff? I don't have a source for the creator confirming that, but it's relatively self evident. The keyblades are clearly modeled after the keys to the kingdom, and the two of them together open up a large gate, similar to the gate of heaven. Plus, Sora's sword is called the kingdom key. Bare in mind, Square Enix loves its goofy religious symbolism. Most of it doesn't really make much sense, but it's definitely there. Sephiroth is named after the Jewish Sephirot, and his final boss form was based on the christian Seraphim. The final part of Kefka's tower is modeled after a famous statue of Jesus and Mary.

Spoiler

It's debatable whether or not any of this actually means anything. I think Square just loves throwing religious symbols into their works because they think it's cool. They don't seem to take it to seriously, especially in Kingdom Hearts. I would argue that it's definitely intentional, though. I also doubt that they plan their work out too far ahead. Kingdom Hearts felt like a mostly self contained story. It left itself open for a sequel, but it didn't feel like they had some grand vision in mind for the franchise. So you're right, I think they were making it up as they went.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Wanna know how stupid this franchise became?

There is this villain called Xehanort?

Anyway.

There is his original Old Man self.

THan there is his younger self

Than there is him possessing a character.

Than there is his Heartless version.

Than there is his Nobody version

Basically there are like 5 different versions of the same villain

 

[Fox12]

Yeah I was done with the series after KH2. For one thing I didn't feel like buying all the different systems to play the spin-offs, but then I caught bits of the lore that had been thrown in in the spin-offs and thought it was convoluted as fuck. And one thing that really bugged my is that in the first game the Keyblade was introduced as this legendary item, and a key point they kept referring to it as THE Keyblade, not A Keyblade, but by the end of KH2 everyone and their dog is wielding one. Kinda diminishes the things legendary status there.

It also messes up the (somewhat goofy) symbolism of the keyblade. There were always two key blades. And what was Sora's key called? The kingdom key.

The keys to the kingdom were the two keys that opened up the gates to heaven in catholicism. Kingdom hearts was supposed to be heaven, and the two kingdom keys were supposed to be the way to open the gate. Then kh 2 came out, and all that got thrown out the window. Now everyone and their grandma gets a key blade.

I didn't know about the parallels to Catholicism, but I compare it to the Super Saiyan transformation in Dragon Ball Z. When it was first introduced it was supposed to be this thing of legend, not seen for a thousand years. Fast forward 2 arcs later and everyone and their dog is a Super Saiyan. I believe it was even lampshaded at one point.
And didn't they introduce a "keyblade war" or something in which entire armies had keyblades, and a "super keybllade" (I forget what it was called). I got most of this for the Lore in a Minute series on YouTube which isn't always accurate so I might not know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, that sums it up. That's the point where I groaned and shook my head. There are likely tens of thousands of keyblades in existence, according to Birth by Sleep, which was a total mess. They tried to remedy this somewhat by saying that there were two super unique keyblades called the X-blades, but it all sounded like a bunch of waffle. I miss the simplicity of the first game. You're DBZ comparison is completely on point. The key blade was supposed to be a special weapon, but now it just feels like any mass produced tool. Anyone whose actually supposed to be useful ends up with a key blade.

Kingdom Hearts, like Final Fantasy, has given way to the worst excesses of Square Enix. They just don't know how to tell stories anymore.

Were they called X-blades? I thought that might be it, but then I thought no, that can't be right. In any case, given that there was once thousands of Keyblade wielders battling it out over... something there might as well be a vending machine that dispenses them. I first noticed this when playing KH2 when Riku casually tosses Kairi a Keyblade like he was loaning her his pencil.

Much like a lot of these companies, Square-Enix has gotten much too big for it's britches and is motivated more by the desire to make money than by the desire to create anything meaningful.

Ugh. Square has to make everything confusing. The "X" in this case is referring to the greek letter "Chi."

It can be pronounced "cai" or "Key." It's often associated with Christ in classical thought. Hence X-mas. Actually pronounced "Chi-mis," or "christ-mas." So its written as greek letter "X", and then blade. X-blade, pronounced "cai-blade." It's one blade made out of two souls. I assume it's supposed to perform the same function as the original two key blades, but it's gotten just plain silly. I guess my liberal arts degree was good for something after all. I'm qualified to talk about the symbolism in a Square-Enix game : P

In Birth by Sleep the finale takes place in the Key Blade graveyard, where two large armies clashed. We see thousands of key blades lying around. Presumably this is where the others all come from. Furthermore, key blade masters are now a knighthood that got wiped out, like the jedi. They even have that seduced by the dark side thing going on. Originally the key blade master was supposed to be a chosen hero figure.

 

[Fox12]

Yeah I was done with the series after KH2. For one thing I didn't feel like buying all the different systems to play the spin-offs, but then I caught bits of the lore that had been thrown in in the spin-offs and thought it was convoluted as fuck. And one thing that really bugged my is that in the first game the Keyblade was introduced as this legendary item, and a key point they kept referring to it as THE Keyblade, not A Keyblade, but by the end of KH2 everyone and their dog is wielding one. Kinda diminishes the things legendary status there.

It also messes up the (somewhat goofy) symbolism of the keyblade. There were always two key blades. And what was Sora's key called? The kingdom key.

The keys to the kingdom were the two keys that opened up the gates to heaven in catholicism. Kingdom hearts was supposed to be heaven, and the two kingdom keys were supposed to be the way to open the gate. Then kh 2 came out, and all that got thrown out the window. Now everyone and their grandma gets a key blade.

I didn't know about the parallels to Catholicism, but I compare it to the Super Saiyan transformation in Dragon Ball Z. When it was first introduced it was supposed to be this thing of legend, not seen for a thousand years. Fast forward 2 arcs later and everyone and their dog is a Super Saiyan. I believe it was even lampshaded at one point.
And didn't they introduce a "keyblade war" or something in which entire armies had keyblades, and a "super keybllade" (I forget what it was called). I got most of this for the Lore in a Minute series on YouTube which isn't always accurate so I might not know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, that sums it up. That's the point where I groaned and shook my head. There are likely tens of thousands of keyblades in existence, according to Birth by Sleep, which was a total mess. They tried to remedy this somewhat by saying that there were two super unique keyblades called the X-blades, but it all sounded like a bunch of waffle. I miss the simplicity of the first game. You're DBZ comparison is completely on point. The key blade was supposed to be a special weapon, but now it just feels like any mass produced tool. Anyone whose actually supposed to be useful ends up with a key blade.

Kingdom Hearts, like Final Fantasy, has given way to the worst excesses of Square Enix. They just don't know how to tell stories anymore.

Do you have a Source for this?

Not trying to call you a liar, I just find it hard to believe that any concept in this Series was ever that thought true when everything else is clearly being made up along as they go.

Also, like I said, I haven't played 3D yet, but isn't there only one X-Blade ( KEY-BLADE)? I believe the idea was that it required 2 Hearts, 1 of Darkness and 1 of Light, equal in Power to collide, which was what was done with Ventus and Vanitas...or did I miss something?

A source for which part? The religious stuff? I don't have a source for the creator confirming that, but it's relatively self evident. The keyblades are clearly modeled after the keys to the kingdom, and the two of them together open up a large gate, similar to the gate of heaven. Plus, Sora's sword is called the kingdom key. Bare in mind, Square Enix loves its goofy religious symbolism. Most of it doesn't really make much sense, but it's definitely there. Sephiroth is named after the Jewish Sephirot, and his final boss form was based on the christian Seraphim. The final part of Kefka's tower is modeled after a famous statue of Jesus and Mary.

Spoiler

It's debatable whether or not any of this actually means anything. I think Square just loves throwing religious symbols into their works because they think it's cool. They don't seem to take it to seriously, especially in Kingdom Hearts. I would argue that it's definitely intentional, though. I also doubt that they plan their work out too far ahead. Kingdom Hearts felt like a mostly self contained story. It left itself open for a sequel, but it didn't feel like they had some grand vision in mind for the franchise. So you're right, I think they were making it up as they went.

Yeah, that's pretty much why I was asking, the symbolism itself made sense to me, I just wanted to know if it was intentional or meant anything, as if it were some abandoned concept for the Series. Thanks for the info. Any comment on the X-Blade thing?

I think it's mostly an abandoned concept. I talked about it a little bit in another comment above. The new "X-blade" seems to be an attempt to recycle that old concept. It's one blade made out of two souls, and it appears to be the new key to kingdom hearts. Hence it fills the role of the two kingdom keys. As I've stated above, the greek letter "X," pronounced "Chi," is often associated with Jesus. Hence, X-mas, "chi-mis," or "christ-mis." It's an interesting idea, but it's obvious that Square is just making up the story as they go. I feel like the symbolism has become needlessly confusing, much like the plot. To be fair, the Japanese often use christian symbolism in their works in the same way that we use norse symbolism in the Thor movies. What does the rainbow bridge in Marvel's Thor symbolize? Nothing. It just looks cool. We're just conditioned to believe that christian symbols are supposed to be meaningful because it's so sacred to our western culture. It doesn't have that significance in Japan, so it usually doesn't mean anything.