Oikos university shooting

[FernandoV]

Why are these people so bad at killing people? They only ever get a few kills despite being in a building with hundreds of people.

With only ~30 rounds to work with, he's actually pretty terrifying lethal. Life isn't like a game of CoD, folks. Getting hit by a bullet, even in the CoM is not necessarily a death sentence.

I just hope no one raises the bar.

I know life isn't COD but even so. In all shootings this happens, even when they are kitted out with rounds and everyone is hiding under desks.

*facepalm* You have no idea what it is like to operate under that kind of stress. Your video game experience doesn't mean shit in it.

 

[ElPatron]

Have you ever stabbed someone full of holes? You don't know how it is until you have, please don't try to pretend you know how it's like. So, if you NEVER someone full of holes, don't tell us how it feels.

Not trying to pull the "badass" card here, but I got shanked once. I think I know how it feels to be at the wrong end of a knife, thank you.

Out of interest, how many murders occur with blunt force trauma on a single hit? I'd love to know.

So you are saying it's almost impossible for me to find data specific to "accidental" murders or are you saying it can't happen? Take domestic violence related murders, and if the victim wasn't beaten to death, shot, stabbed or whatever, it was most likely blunt force trauma from a random object.

You can kill someone with a book in a single blow if you know what you are doing. Just saying.

Of course not. That would be a very silly and dangerous thing to do.

Then don't pretend it's a piece of cake. Even shooting someone who is breaking into your house can be traumatic.

The one time I shot a pistol, I found aiming it to be a complete piece of piss to be honest. Same with the rifles.

A rifle has a larger sight radius, but it's hardly a good choice for the criminal population.

Now, you probably shot at a static target. Try to unholster, take the safety off and put successive hits on a dynamic target. Except that target is breathing and will take your gun away if he has the chance. That target will probably be able to run for 3 seconds even if you hit him in the heart.

Try that with a high recoil round.

Ain't that easy. If everyone was able to do it there would be no point in sports shooting.

And regarding the "small hole" caused by a bullet; you do realise that it doesn't just vanish after piercing the skin? They often keep moving quite a bit and can cause quite a bit of damage. Have a look at this link for more info.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/parts/best-place-to-get-shot1.htm

A couple of quotes.

HURR DURR HOW STUFF WORKS. Don't believe those guys.

Jacketed hollow point bullets are designed to expand, making them lose velocity. The more energy it loses, the more energy it is transferred to the body.

It is a common misconception that hollow points are supposed to make up for poor accuracy so the expansion equals a higher chance of hitting vitals. No. The increased surface area means increased volume of wound channel. If the expansion was supposed to put "big holes" in people then you would still need hundreds if not thousands of bullets to cover the entire torso.

Full metal jackets do not fragment unless the conditions allow to do so. Steel/copper bullets have a hard time fragmenting because they are hard metals. Even lead core bullets won't fragment if the copper jacket is thick enough, and a cannelure is sometimes required. 5.56x45mm is known to fragment, but only up to 150m. After that it breaks in two by the cannelure.

Pistol FMJ ammo won't fragment. They are relatively short and travel at low speeds.

About that cavitation deal.

Pistol ammo is slow. It hardly creates any hydrostatic shock. Cavitation is elastic, so the damage caused by slow pistol rounds is usually not a good measurement of their effectiveness since tissue will return to it's original position.

A rifle round's cavitation will result in a lot more stretching and tearing of tissues.

Now let's compare it to a knife. Even a shallow slash in your hand can cut the tendons of your fingers and fuck up your hand for your life. Some knifes are able to cause massive damage to bones. Some slashes can create cuts that are equally as devastating as a gunshot wound.

And let's face it. A knife makes no audible report, no muzzle blast, no gun shot residue, no recoil and doesn't run out of ammunition.

 

[ElPatron]

Do practice matches count? If so I will back up what he says EXCEPT for the part about knives being purely offensive.

It's perfectly possible to use a knife to defend yourself. Yet, it's use is offensive and defending strikes with a knife is very tricky and requires training.

When you use knifes in a defensive stance, I share my opinion with people that understand fighting better than I do - the most important part is footwork. You want to use the knife to distract the opponent from your other members - the human body is capable of attacking in many ways so one should not focus on the knife too much.

About the knife, I was talking about the Fairbanks-Sykes knife.

The Germans had to start slinging the rifles the opposite way because they were scared of British commandos stabbing them in the lungs or in the carotid artery.

Problem, most people use FMJ target loads not JHP defensive loads when shooting (that includes LEOs and soldiers). In other words the bullets do far less damage because they are not meant to do that. In fact the best way to kill a person with a FMJ target load is to put something between them and your gun and hope is slows the bullet down enough.

My opinion is always underestimate wounds on opponents. And I know that pistols are used because they are practical, not because they are that lethal.

If I had to chose between a single shot, and several shanks, I think I would go for the first if it was a pistol.

We know that dense cloth like Denim can clog hollow points and render them as effective as FMJs. The wound channel of a FMJ pistol round is often smaller than the actual diameter of the bullet because bullets not only crush tissue, they also push a lot of it to the sides, which leads to a big surface of the wound unaffected by the bullet.

Shanks have very thin wound channels but they are wide and can reach surprising depths. A determined attacker can use a knife to damage to cause permanent damage, while an inexperienced shooter will have a large chance of missing the vitals.

 

[ElPatron]

But I'm guessing you do?

Oh wait, no you don't.

Nice assumption. You do know that there quite a few guys from the military in The Escapist, right?

Or perhaps he can be American and have taken a training course.

Anywho, he doesn't need any prior knowledge to call bull. So far your retort was passing the hot potato, I think you could do better than that.

 

[Rarhnor]

he shouldve used extended mags and steady aim

does making that joke make me a horrible person?

Only if you had suggested noobtube.

 

[ElPatron]

snip

I don't usually check other people's profiles. No matter how much of a spoiled asshole doesn't change the fact that he called bull on you - unless you wanted to share your experience here you have no business trying to bring him down with you.

I might be the worst person to talk about this, but there are hundreds of things that can be said on threads like this. Using a thread about the death of people to try to mutually bring each other down looks awful. It reminds me of people jumping the gun and blaming videogames/Marylin Manson/guns/bowling for violence as soon as a school shooting hits the news.

It's not the right way to push an agenda.

Schools are packed with people. He used a .45 ACP handgun, and that round is known to be somewhat slow compared to more modern rounds... When a large pack of people starts running, it's hard to keep the sights trained on someone.

Pistol rounds are also quite "weak" compared to rifles. Gunshot wounds are usually not lethal when it doesn't hit center of mass or CNS.

50 Cent was shot 9 times. There are people who get shot 5-6 times and keep running.

Having a gun does not make you an elite killer. It takes skill to use.

 

[ElPatron]

Called bull? I was asking a question and I elaborated on what I was thinking when someone replied. How can he call bull on a question?

You were talking about people kitted with "rounds" (rage-o-meter filling) and under desks.

With the right angle, a bullet can ricochet and fail to penetrate the wood/metal structure. This implying that people are hiding under desks, that happened during Columbine because the victims decided to hide form the shooters.

Spoiler: I'm just Saiyan

 

[Rarhnor]

And here is the ongoing problem with America: We continue to hold onto the idea that shooting anybody is acceptable. Nobody should be killed. The fact that we consider it okay to think somebody threatening us is a good reason to kill someone is the entire fucking reason it's so common for people to get killed in situations that, in most other countries, wouldn't have even been a fucking problem. You know what's worse than someone pulling a knife during a conflict and getting his or her way because of it? Somebody pulling a knife during an incident, and the other person thinking "I can't just let him get his way!" and shoots him to death. Yes, a few people might get knifed, but there are a hell of a lot more people who get gunned down in America over stupid fucking misunderstandings that stem almost entirely from this bullshit idea that you are ever in possession of the moral justification to murder another human being.

You can't sit there and apply GENERAL morales to the guy, when he acted out of his OWN vengeance, for the way he was treated. That treatment was enough to push him beyond the edge of taking people's life.
People rarely kill out of pleasure or any kind of random urge, rather, they do it out of personal vengeance.
I'm not gonna justify Goh's actions, or encourage murder, but I AM gonna say that the people bullying him should be anything BUT surprised, if he goes abe-shit. Cause and effect.
If you threaten somebody with killing them, you shouldn't expect them not to take it seriously.

 

[ElPatron]

oh good god with a danger close noobtube it would have been chaos he would've had a harrier up in to time, possibly even a nuke

A 40mm grenade would probably kill you too. It's kill radius is 5 meters and it will cause casualties up to 130m away.

Don't forget the warhead only arms after traveling 14 to 27 meters. Good luck using it inside a school.

 

[bobmus]

Another tragedy to be overlooked in the arguments over gun laws in the US and the effects of violent videogames. All my Atheist prayers for the victims and their families.

 

[ElPatron]

snip

To humans 800ft/sec is instantaneous. But when there is a person running... the round will not hit the same place as the muzzle was pointing at.
Combat shooting =/= target shooting.


Okay, a .45 kills because it's slow and it gets caught up by tissue really well. It displaces a lot of mass. But the diameter isn't a big deal, and that's where hollow points come in. If you take a FMJ, the wound channel will close and the diameter of the "hole" won't be anything special compared to almost half an inch of round nose lead.

9x19 does not lack stopping power. Zimmerman brought Treyvon Martin with a single shot.

as far as them being non-lethal if not center of mass that's bullshit.. even with a wounding shot to an arm or leg most people will go into shock and/or die of blood loss or sepsis fairly quickly

I am assuming school shooting conditions, not combat conditions. Jared Lee Loughner shot Gabrielle Giffords in the head and she survived. Why? Rapid response. You don't have hospitals 4 minutes away in combat.

223 which are tiny rounds with very little stopping power because it creates a very narrow wound channel and almost always over-penetrates without.. wound channel is all that matters when it comes to a rounds stopping power.. and rounds like the 9mm and .223/5.56x45mm are designed to wound not kill..

I will gladly antagonize that post.

9x19 Europellet does it's job and if I was asked to, I would trust my life to 9x19 as much as I would to .45 ACP.


I assume that a Navy SEAL knows about it more than you or me.

5.56x45 was NEVER made to wound. That is an internet myth. The ONLY military weapon ever designed to wound is the Anti Personnel Mine. 5.56 is perfectly able to take down deer, it's capable of taking down humans.

If 5.56 was that ineffective, the Russians would have never developed 5.45x39. Both wounds are nasty and create far larger wound cavities than their ancestors.

handguns take skill if you want to be excellent with them but require very little to actually use effectively especially against other untrained civilians who are panicking

If I convinced myself that guns made crime easier I would defend banning guns.

I don't believe it, therefore I am against banning guns.

I love it when he gets to the .45acp and writes- .45 ACP (occassionally called "11.43x23mm" by some silly Europeans

Step up to my level - metric system master race. Inches is a clown measurement therefore .45 ACP is a clown cartridge, lol.