ok, i have to rant somewhere, so here it is...

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I will have to disagree with advice to use vaping as an option, as that is just another bad idea and some of those things now have more nicotine than cigarettes...

I was a smoker for a decade, funny enough originally picked up the habit during a really bad allergy season, because I discovered it was the only thing that actually helped my symptoms. Three to four years ago, I started vaping, and while I have a cigarette occasionally, maybe a pack a year in total, I've mostly quit and have reached the point I largely find the taste and smell of cigarettes largely off-putting.

Yes, a lot of liquids do have more nicotine than cigarettes. Depending on brand, filtering, and flavor, most cigarettes sit around the equivalent of a 6-12mg/ml juice, and most juices in my experience go up to 24mg/ml. But, on the other hand, nicotine-less and -light juice does exist. Personally, I vape 3mg/ml.

Now, here's the thing. Smoking is a habit first, addiction second. Nicotine is an addictive drug, sure, but not that addictive, at least in the sense chemical withdrawal isn't terribly bad and short-lived. Habituation to the physical act of smoking and the ritual involved is the killer. Compounding that, is positive association between the chemical effects of nicotine, the relaxation of smoke breaks, and the social context of smoking. In short, smokers turn themselves into Pavlov's dogs as a matter of course.

This is why cold turkey and "cessation aids" like NRT (patches, gum, nasal sprays) and prescription pharmaceuticals rarely work. They don't break the habituation, and more often than not smokers relapse when they repeatedly put themselves in situations where they've conditioned themselves to smoke. By the by, this is actually why many smokers gain weight when trying to quit; excess eating replicates the smoking "ritual", and since eating triggers dopamine release it replicates the chemical effect of nicotine in the nervous system.

That's why vaping works to transition off tobacco products. It replicates the "ritual" of smoking, and can be performed in any scenario in which one might otherwise be tempted to smoke. And, most appealingly, one can carry out the ritual absent nicotine should they vape 0% juice. From there, it's simply a matter of weaning oneself from the habit.

This is why recovering alcoholics and other addicts are told to change their life style to avoid circumstances in which they're habituated, or conditioned, to drink. We don't do that with smokers; instead, we throw them headlong into each and every life circumstance in which they'd be tempted to smoke, give them "cessation" aids that only address the chemical aspect by prolonging or delaying withdrawal no other recourse, yet endlessly propagandize the evils of the chemicals involved without engendering a deeper understanding of what really happens inside smokers' minds. We do our hardest as a society to keep them "smokers", but throwing money at big pharma instead of big tobacco.

Is it any wonder the pharmaceutical industry is throwing money around like it's going out of style to lock down the vaping industry?

Actually, in the studies we currently have, Vaping has been shown to not help with quitting smoking and is just as addictive as smoking and does not ween you from nicotine addiction. Yes, Smoking is still worse, but that is like arguing about whether it is worse to get hit by a car or a bus when both are pretty awful.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-care-news/articles/2018-07-10/study-vaping-doesnt-help-smokers-quit-cigarettes

https://azdailysun.com/lifestyles/health-med-fit/why-vaping-doesn-t-help-smokers-quit/article_32119159-203d-5bb5-8bec-60b3412645ee.html

The most successful OTC method to quit smoking we have is a combination of replacement therapies that include the patch. Using the patch in addition to another method in the early stages has been shown to be the most effective:

http://tobacco-cessation.org/whatworkstoquit/medications.html
specifically:
http://tobacco-cessation.org/whatworkstoquit/medications.html

Some even still smoke in the beginning while wearing the patch,( even though the box tells you not to) just much less since they are retraining their pleasure association with cigarettes and receiving their nicotine regardless of whether or not they smoke. This separates the habit and chemical addiction retraining your brain. It makes it easier to focus on the habit without being forced to address the chemical addition at the same time. Some may need to do this more slowly than the box recommendations to have this work better for them and reduce at their own speed rather than the standard set program. If they try to drop down to a lower patch too soon, they can go back to the higher patch or even alternate them in the beginning to smooth the transition. The objective here is to be comfortable with the reduction, and if you do it slowly enough you hardly notice it. Eventually on the lower patches, you just start waiting longer every day to change them until you no longer feel a need to change it at all.


In addition, just switching to vaping from smoking isn't quitting, if you are still vaping, it hasn't worked yet.

EDIT:
The level of withdrawal one goes through greatly varies per individual. Nicotine is considered just as addictive as cocaine or heroin.

The science behind why it's so difficult to quit smoking is crystal clear: Nicotine is addictive ? reportedly as addictive as cocaine or heroin.

Yet any adult can stroll into a drug store and buy a pack of cigarettes, no questions asked.

"From a scientific standpoint, nicotine is just as hard, or harder, to quit than heroin ? but people don't recognize that," said Dr. Neil Benowitz, a nicotine researcher at the University of California, San Francisco.

"Every drug of abuse, including nicotine, releases dopamine, which makes it pleasurable to use," said Benowitz. "And when you stop smoking, you have a deficiency of dopamine release, which causes a state of dysphoria: you feel anxious or depressed."

Nicotine also acts as a stimulant, said Benowitz. "It helps people concentrate, and if they don't have a cigarette, they have trouble focusing."

https://www.heart.org/en/news/2018/10/17/why-its-so-hard-to-quit-smoking

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/addiction-in-society/200812/the-7-hardest-addictions-quit-love-is-the-worst

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

well, i guess at some point this week i will have to tell my wife, because right now i have huge mood swings, and apparently it's very apparent.

just before i start typing this, i had a very strong craving. i didnt had one for all day long, but for 5 minutes, i had this huge need for a cigarette. i realised that in my desk there's a 2 years old pack of malboro. i almost smoked it. i have to get rid of that tomorrow.

it was quite a strong craving, seriously, i almost cried. but it lasted less than 10 minutes. i'm ok now. i just hope it was the last big one...

It would be good to tell her and have her support. It is difficult enough to do on your own and having a loved one help you through and at least understand that it may not be the best time to initiate an irritating discussion could really help you make it through. I hope it goes well for you.

 

[Marik2]

Doesn't Canada have good services for people who want to quit smoking? Please do that and tell your wife to help you. That's what good spouses are supposed to do.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Actually, in the studies we currently have, Vaping has been shown to not help with quitting smoking and is just as addictive as smoking and does not ween you from nicotine addiction. Yes, Smoking is still worse, but that is like arguing about whether it is worse to get hit by a car or a bus when both are pretty awful.

I cut the shit and went straight to the PLOS One site to read the article. Hint: you might want to do that. Specifically, the "limitations" and "competing interests" sections. Doesn't help their case that while they controlled for device type and even juice flavor, they didn't control for nicotine content of the juice. Just as one example.

But at least they did cite the lack of scientific consensus, and the number of studies that have found positive correlation between vaping and successful cessation.

This study brought to you in part by Pfizer, the pharmaceutical company whose flagship prescription cessation aid nearly got pulled from the market due to suicidal ideation and actions as potential side effects, yet successfully lobbied (keyword, lobbied) the FDA to remove its black box warning after a single study that was...quite controversial in the health care community, to say the least.

The most successful OTC method to quit smoking we have is a combination of replacement therapies that include the patch...

Keyword, "combination". NRT effectiveness still tanks when not accompanied by social support, therapy, and/or lifestyle change. Which was my entire point, we as a society are selling NRT to smokers as if it is a panacea when it is not.

Nicotine is considered just as addictive as cocaine or heroin.

You're comparing nicotine to a narcotic the withdrawal symptoms of which can literally kill you, and a stimulant of which those undergoing withdrawal have to be put on suicide watch.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Actually, in the studies we currently have, Vaping has been shown to not help with quitting smoking and is just as addictive as smoking and does not ween you from nicotine addiction. Yes, Smoking is still worse, but that is like arguing about whether it is worse to get hit by a car or a bus when both are pretty awful.

I cut the shit and went straight to the PLOS One site to read the article. Hint: you might want to do that. Specifically, the "limitations" and "competing interests" sections. Doesn't help their case that while they controlled for device type and even juice flavor, they didn't control for nicotine content of the juice. Just as one example.

But at least they did cite the lack of scientific consensus, and the number of studies that have found positive correlation between vaping and successful cessation.

This study brought to you in part by Pfizer, the pharmaceutical company whose flagship prescription cessation aid nearly got pulled from the market due to suicidal ideation and actions as potential side effects, yet successfully lobbied (keyword, lobbied) the FDA to remove its black box warning after a single study that was...quite controversial in the health care community, to say the least.

The most successful OTC method to quit smoking we have is a combination of replacement therapies that include the patch...

Keyword, "combination". NRT effectiveness still tanks when not accompanied by social support, therapy, and/or lifestyle change. Which was my entire point, we as a society are selling NRT to smokers as if it is a panacea when it is not.

Nicotine is considered just as addictive as cocaine or heroin.

You're comparing nicotine to a narcotic the withdrawal symptoms of which can literally kill you, and a stimulant of which those undergoing withdrawal have to be put on suicide watch.

You should understand that the reason they say that it is just as addictive to Cocaine and Heroin is that people who have quit Cocaine and heroin have told us repeatedly and consistently that it was as difficult of not more difficult for them to quit smoking than when they quit the other drugs. This statement actually comes from those who have actually gone through these things, and how they rated it. If you disagree, you can take it up with those who have been through these things that rated it. We still have a good chunk of the population who was able to quit all the other drugs, but still unable to quit smoking.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

You should understand that the reason they say that it is just as addictive to Cocaine and Heroin is that people who have quit Cocaine and heroin have told us repeatedly and consistently that it was as difficult of not more difficult for them to quit smoking than when they quit the other drugs. This statement actually comes from those who have actually gone through these things, and how they rated it. If you disagree, you can take it up with those who have been through these things that rated it. We still have a good chunk of the population who was able to quit all the other drugs, but still unable to quit smoking.

Not trying to be rude, but go back and read what I said, which was...

1. The addiction isn't down to the chemical, and its impact on the body, alone. It's a matter of habituation. I'd wager a guess that due the ubiquity and legality of tobacco products compared to cocaine and heroin, and the social circumstances behind their use, educating people to recognize relapse triggers and develop proper coping mechanisms is a mite more common for the latter.

The difference is, we treat addiction to drugs like cocaine and heroin seriously (well, kinda), recognize addicts have to change basically their entire lifestyle and social network to get off and stay off them, understand recovery is a lifelong process, and do our best as a society (well, kinda) to inform and equip addicts (well, those who can afford it) with the toolkit they need to get and stay clean. Nicotine? "well, here's a patch, fuck off".

The attitude you're expressing here, discussing tobacco use and habituation in terms exclusive to nicotine as a chemical while sweeping any other consideration to the side, is part of the problem. Would you suggest to a heroin addict all they need is just to detox, then go about their life as normal -- but just kinda maybe avoid stressful situations? No, in fact I'd be willing to wager you'd be the first to argue such a treatment is barbaric, inhumane, and more likely to lead to the addict killing themselves of an overdose (because that's what happens) than going on to lead a full and productive life.

So, if you're that deadset against nicotine in general, how and why is that attitude in any way excusable?

And, before I go onto #2, I'd specifically mention heroin here, because fear of dope sickness is what keeps a lot of addicts using -- and clean, once they are. So,

2. Even if one examines exclusively the impact of nicotine as a chemical, withdrawal's symptom severity and duration are nowhere near either of the two drugs you mention. As I said, heroin withdrawal can kill. Those undergoing cocaine withdrawal may have to be put on suicide watch. Compared to that, "quitter's flu" is nothing.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

You should understand that the reason they say that it is just as addictive to Cocaine and Heroin is that people who have quit Cocaine and heroin have told us repeatedly and consistently that it was as difficult of not more difficult for them to quit smoking than when they quit the other drugs. This statement actually comes from those who have actually gone through these things, and how they rated it. If you disagree, you can take it up with those who have been through these things that rated it. We still have a good chunk of the population who was able to quit all the other drugs, but still unable to quit smoking.

Not trying to be rude, but go back and read what I said, which was...

1. The addiction isn't down to the chemical, and its impact on the body, alone. It's a matter of habituation. I'd wager a guess that due the ubiquity and legality of tobacco products compared to cocaine and heroin, and the social circumstances behind their use, educating people to recognize relapse triggers and develop proper coping mechanisms is a mite more common for the latter.

The difference is, we treat addiction to drugs like cocaine and heroin seriously (well, kinda), recognize addicts have to change basically their entire lifestyle and social network to get off and stay off them, understand recovery is a lifelong process, and do our best as a society (well, kinda) to inform and equip addicts (well, those who can afford it) with the toolkit they need to get and stay clean. Nicotine? "well, here's a patch, fuck off".

The attitude you're expressing here, discussing tobacco use and habituation in terms exclusive to nicotine as a chemical while sweeping any other consideration to the side, is part of the problem. Would you suggest to a heroin addict all they need is just to detox, then go about their life as normal -- but just kinda maybe avoid stressful situations? No, in fact I'd be willing to wager you'd be the first to argue such a treatment is barbaric, inhumane, and more likely to lead to the addict killing themselves of an overdose (because that's what happens) than going on to lead a full and productive life.

So, if you're that deadset against nicotine in general, how and why is that attitude in any way excusable?

And, before I go onto #2, I'd specifically mention heroin here, because fear of dope sickness is what keeps a lot of addicts using -- and clean, once they are. So,

2. Even if one examines exclusively the impact of nicotine as a chemical, withdrawal's symptom severity and duration are nowhere near either of the two drugs you mention. As I said, heroin withdrawal can kill. Those undergoing cocaine withdrawal may have to be put on suicide watch. Compared to that, "quitter's flu" is nothing.

First of all, that is a false assumption on your part that I "swept to the side" the habituation issue, as I discussed at length the necessity of separating the habituation issue from the chemical dependence and retrain the brain to not associate the stimulant with the habit. In addition, I provided resources above to address utilizing cigarettes as a "Crutch" to deal with stress, and there are numerous techniques that can be used to reduce stress to better equip a person to deal when stressful situations arise.

I addressed that issue at length, and rather than me dismissing the importance of either the habitual issue or the chemical dependence, I see them as being equally important and how one or the other impacts each individual varies. Some may have more difficulty with the habitual portion, OTHERS have more issue with he chemical dependence. Some have no difficulty with either, that does not mean that others will have the same results, that is not how this works in practice at all.


You are the only one sweeping anything aside, I addressed both thoroughly at length. When you review the material I provided above on how to deal with anxiety and stress, and to have a plan when ready for when it becomes difficult that is to address creating new habits to break the old. You appear to have overlooked what I have already provided in my first post in this thread.


In addition, you don't think that there are " smokers groups" at work? Their breaks are spent together huddled outside as a group discussing daily events. Smokers often have to make a good number of changes as well, and yes this can mean making new friends and finding new hang outs in the process. Changing your behavior and social network can apply to smokers as well as other addictions. Sometimes they have to find new employment, leave a partner and find a new place to live in order to quit smoking depending on the individual circumstance.


EDIT:

Yes there is a link between smoking and mental health issues and suicide as well:

https://tobaccofreelife.org/resources/smoking-suicide-risks/

As well as already causing 1 in 5 deaths in the US each year.

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/index.htm

https://www.councilonchemicalabuse.org/ndfw-nicotine-vs-heroin.html

US drug overdose deaths rose to record 72,000 last year, data reveals

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/16/us-drug-overdose-deaths-opioids-fentanyl-cdc

Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day. On average, smokers die 10 years earlier than nonsmokers.

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/index.htm

Now of course those stats include all drugs, not just heroine, but the numbers difference is still blatantly apparent when you compare the number of all combined drug overdoses to the deaths from smoking.