Okay, a question to you all regarding July 4th

[Grygor]

our radical (for the time) philosophy that the people's government should be controlled by and for the people themselves.

Wow, that went to shit quickly.

How did the US end up so populous and powerful anyway? Never really learnt that in history. Well, I could guess the population came from large scale immigration and then the manpower turned it into a supernation, but I've never really learnt it in full.

Well the large population is a a result of relatively high birth rate and heavy immigration. (The US's population surpassed the UK's in the 1840s and France's and Germany's around 1870.)

The economic might is primarily a consequence of World War II, the US being basically the only large industrialized nation that did not have large chunks of its industrial infrastructure destroyed or a large portion of the population killed.

 

[GenericAmerican]

Your expecting way to much from you tube . . . and way to much from the Internet in general.

 

[Skratt]

In this day and age most people just want to celebrate and have a good time. It's the ignorant vocal minority that do all the shit you describe. As to the specific events, it just that age old glossing phenomenon we all know and love.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

our radical (for the time) philosophy that the people's government should be controlled by and for the people themselves.

Wow, that went to shit quickly.

How did the US end up so populous and powerful anyway? Never really learnt that in history. Well, I could guess the population came from large scale immigration and then the manpower turned it into a supernation, but I've never really learnt it in full.

Things are a lot better than they were before. Still, I know what you mean. They could not have predicted the capacity for modern media to "create voters" as opposed to winning over citizens or the extreme power of wealth in an industrial or post-industrial economy, though the more democratic among them were not blind to the danger:

"...England exhibits the most remarkable phaenomenon in the universe in the contrast between the profligacy [reckless waste] of it's government and the probity [prudence] of it's citizens... I hope we shall take warning from the example and crush in it's birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and to bid defiance to the laws of their country."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to George Logan Nov. 12, 1816

As this was a pre-capitalist period[footnote]Obviously this depends on how you are defining your terms, especially if you are referring to an economic model as opposed to a historical phenomenon. [/footnote], one could correctly argue that Jefferson was referring to something different than our modern state of affairs. But I believe the spirit of his views is very clear.

As for how and why America became so powerful, that is a very long story. It was predicted early by some of the Founders as well as European observers such as your countrymen Alexis de Tocqueville, though I think we have surpassed everyone's expectations. Our successes have been attributed to things like our vast natural resources, rapid European migration, enormous Puritan work ethic, protective economic policies, expansionism and imperialism, opportunities for industrialization, early mandatory education, strategic position on the world map, and other factors.

America entered each World War with secondary strategic importance compared to the European combatants but the promise of vast material and industrial resources to exploit. The early twentieth century saw America rise from a minor player in world affairs to the greater of two superpowers. The mighty European powers were devastated and deeply in debt to- you guessed it- the United States of America. Instead of our industrial base and infrastructure being wiped out as in the Old World, they were vastly expanded during the wars. Military power and political influence gave America and it's allies access to the greatest material prize in human history in the vast energy resources of the Middle East. The Cold War provided a need (or at least a pretense) to keep our military strength intact. After the fall of the Soviet Empire, this military strength and world dominance simply continued justified only with the need to defend strategic resources abroad.

And here we are!

 

[Woodsey]

I don't really care, I don't see why anyone else does.

It's already well-established that there's a fairly large cultural difference with regards to opinions on patriotism between America and Britain (and the rest of Europe) - I haven't actually seen any 4th July shit anywhere, only reason I notice it is because half the internet shuts down.

A real issue which skirts the same lines of debate was the street parties and "USA!" chants over Bin Laden having his brains blown out. 4th July is just people getting drunk on a national holiday and being a bit more partiotic than the rest of the world thinks is tasteful.

 

[godofallu]

Everyone who hates it when Americans have fun rejoice! The celebration on the Fourth this year was cancelled in my area due to record high temperatures combined with months of drought.

One stray spark could have started a fire, and as such all fireworks were cancelled.

Not to mention the corn is failing the "kneee high by July" benchmark. Which means we might loose our crops en mass. Causing heavy economic damage in my area.

 

[Codeknight]

Americans in particular, you know your history

You want to know what we learn? The hard working and ruthlessly taxed wonderful colonists threw off the shackles of oppression by the evil money grubbing British, the French only helped with shipments of baguettes and mimes. Also, America is right all the time and never does anything wrong... ever! (I almost put a joke at America's expense here about slavery but upon reading it even I found it offensive (me being anti-slavery, not pro-American))

It's all blind pride in ancestry and propaganda. There is very rarely a good and bad side to any conflict when you take a few steps back and look at it all purely objectively and, unless it's very small, there is more than just 1 group of people fighting another. Also it is kind of funny how when kids first learn about the American revolution the most countries other than America and Great Britain get is a footnote.

*snort* Yeah, but then that idea was promptly scrapped in favor of handing the power to pick the next leader of the nation to the electoral college.

Democracy my ass, all we get to decide are the results of the popular vote.

I don't think that is the problem. the problem is those are the only people we vote for because it's familiar, and in general, people fear change. There are plenty of 3rd party candidates but nobody votes for them because of that or because they don't want to [FLAWED CONCEPT ALERT] "waste" their vote by voting for somebody who won't get many other votes. Anyone can run for presidency, and anyone can get elected, they just have to convince voters that there are more viable options than just republican and democrat.

 

[ElPatron]

Hey guys I hear a lot of people are telling women to go to the kitchen in the internet, they must really mean it.

Okay, let me ask you this: Which is more sad: some anonymous internetting Americans making joke comments about how we "kicked England's ass" or the fact that some Brits are actually getting upset over it? Hm?

The second. If I got mad at every time my country is dissed on the internet I'd have died with a stroke.

Then again I am one of my nation's harshest critics.

Patriotism is the belief your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.

That is just blind nationalism.

I truly love my country but that doesn't stop me from admitting you'd be better off living somewhere else, and that as a nation we dun goof'ed pretty bad. Yet I am what can be called a patriotic person.

Kinda sounds like a "no true Scotsman" fallacy but it isn't. There are stupid patriots too. But they don't represent the majority.

being a bit more partiotic than the rest of the world thinks is tasteful.

If you think the 4th of July is not tasteful, you should have visited Portugal circa 2004.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

You guys really can't let us have this one day?

Though honestly, I can't really complain. All I did was volunteer and go bowling in an empty Bowling alley with a bunch of friends. The drive was fun because they recently legalized fireworks here, so everyone was shooting off some.

Anyways, yes, we had help. But than again, so did the Brits. Hessians, Germans, and I believe the Canadians also did some damage.

 

[Mikkaddo]

July 4th, the day America celebrates its independence.

It's the day the vast majority of Americans get very patriotic towards their country, flags are flown, parties are had, fireworks are let off. It's also the day the rest of the world (England especially) rolls its collective eyes and says under its breath "it's just one day and then we are clear for the next year".

Now, what I'm about to say will be regarding people on Youtube, so I know I'm taking from an already ignorant and generally arseholish (new word) population of people second only in arseholishness (new word #2) to darker places on the internet that I shall not name.

But there seem to be a ton of individuals, Americans, who believe they "kicked the British's ass", adding things like "GG no re", "suck it England", and "you f£&$*%G noobs, learn to fight a war".

My jimmies were rustled. I shouldn't have let them be, it's Youtube after all, but they were.

So, a couple of things.

Correct me if my research has led me wrong, but the French played a very strong role in helping the (what was then) rebellious British people win their independence to become America, and thus Americans. Britain has never had good ties with the French, especially not back then; it seems from what I have looked up (nothing in depth, just basic facts, figures, dates), that the French only did this really to spite us. And in the final battle that many see as the "defeat of the British" (the siege of Yorktown), some 8600 French soldiers bolstered the ranks of the rebel forces (numbering 8000), forcing a capitulation of the 9000 strong British forces, not to mention moving one of their larger fleets (22,000 sailors in all) to intercept British reinforcements, outnumbering the British fleet by 9 ships. Would it be fair to say that the French played a very large role in the victory? Not only that, but they were only doing it to divide our forces between the homeland and the colonies to try and strengthen their position against us in Europe? Please come in with comments if any of this is off.

Secondly, I saw a lot of back and forth between people, and the general attitude was one of attributing the general worth of somebody today based on the actions of people hundreds of years ago. Sorry if that didn't read well, I have a hard time articulating this thought. It was like an American saying to a British person "yeah we kicked your ass, and because of what was done hundreds of years ago, that makes me superior despite doing nothing to prove such a thing in today's modern times". I was thinking "wow, you're really going to degrade an entire country because of a civil war they had on their home turf that turned out to create someone like you?".

So my general concluding thoughts were, no, Americans did not "kick our ass" because they didn't exist at that point. British rebels kicked British loyalist ass with strong help from the French, who only seemed to be doing it for their own gain against us in Europe.

Americans in particular, you know your history better than I do, how do you guys know it?

Also, captcha is wanting to know what all your blood types are. Don't ask.

just as a quick reference for the future: you said yourself, you found this stuff from Youtube comments and the darker places of the internet. Now, I am an American, and I am fairly patriotic . . . as pretty much any citizen of any nation should be proud of the nation their in. (otherwise what the hell are you doing there?) but the (to borrow Moveibob's parlance) "dude-bros" that only on the 4th end up making the rest of the world think all of us are drunken frat brothers are a minority . . . a very vocal very very very very VERY active minority, but they ARE a minority. Most Americans take the 4th to reflect on their life, their family history and the world history. Yes, we won the war . . . but the 4th of July is not about "the war" it's about WHY there was a war in the first place. Independence day is meant to bring to mind the entire process from those who founded America deciding to they didn't believe things were being done right in England, to the end of that war. It's not a scoreboard, and it's not a fucking game like they seem to treat it.

Also, for my money: chances are, the ones that go to the internet to scream "WOOHOO! WE KICKED YOUR ASS" and all that crap are PROBABLY the same people responsible for "*enter city name here* lost the Superbowl this year, disgraced and angry fans flooded the streets causing a riot" which makes it sound like a much larger number, but this is a country of at the very least probably at least a few tens of millions of people. So a few thousand across the country is still a minority.




Now, that's entirely my opinion, and I by NO stretch of the imagination can speak for every person in the country, so like you should with what ANYONE says . . . take this with about a spoonful of salt.

Pardon me while I go look up the origin of "take this with a grain of salt."

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I don't really care, I don't see why anyone else does.

It's already well-established that there's a fairly large cultural difference with regards to opinions on patriotism between America and Britain (and the rest of Europe) - I haven't actually seen any 4th July shit anywhere, only reason I notice it is because half the internet shuts down.

A real issue which skirts the same lines of debate was the street parties and "USA!" chants over Bin Laden having his brains blown out. 4th July is just people getting drunk on a national holiday and being a bit more partiotic than the rest of the world thinks is tasteful.

We didn't know a lot about the operation at that time. We knew he had been killed, we didn't know he had been executed in the field (that's what I'm calling it, anyway). The death of Osama bin Laden wasn't just the death of some guy we hated. It was the closest we are ever going to get to some kind of victory or closure in this ridiculous War on Terror. As you can see below, the official aim of the war that most Americans supported uncontroversially was to use appropriate retaliatory force against the perpetrators of the September 11th attacks[footnote]
Authorization for Use of Military Force
September 18, 2001
Public Law 107-40 [S. J. RES. 23]
107th CONGRESS

SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

[EDIT:] I just realized this paragraph reads likes it's authorizing the President to just attack whatever. It doesn't read that way in context.[/footnote]. Invading half of Asia was just for funsies. Celebration is typically what people do when they win a war. A warlike era ends, and we all start looking forward to the peace. Maybe this wasn't really that kind of victory, but that is what was being celebrated. Sure, it wasn't our proudest moment but I think some, including Americans, overlook the substance of what was really happening in a way that makes us look bloodthirsty. We are bloodthirsty. Ask any Republican candidate beside the endearing, kooky one how they feel about torture. I just don't think this is a great example of it.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Also, don't forget the War of 1812. Where the US invaded Canada.

There is a lot of dispute over who actually won that war. Who has Canada? That's what I thought.

The way you phrase that makes it sound like you think the War of 1812 took place because America tried to take over Canada. That is not the case. Again we were attacked and again we survived. Some might call that a victory.

Canada wasn't some kind of free country or something, it was part of the British Empire. The British Empire that wanted to conquer the United States. Also, Canada was recognized by all as invaluable to the British because it served as a staging area for offensive operations in those colonies which had always been English. Canada represented an existential threat to the U.S. of A. The people living in Canada were given extreme concessions, sometimes at the expense of the thirteen English colonies, precisely to maintain the loyalty of that colony so that it could be safely exploited as a means to crush the others should they prove disloyal. From the American perspective you're like a bunch of loyalist sell-outs, sacrificing your freedom and betraying the Revolution in exchange for some measly handouts. If your attitude was different I would have expressed sympathy because Canada may not have possessed the means to give effective resistance. But when we invaded, Canadians could have helped.

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

I am only a lowly American, and not a politician (big mistake lol) or a scientist, so I won't insult your intelligence by explaining what that is or what it means.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Also, don't forget the War of 1812. Where the US invaded Canada.

There is a lot of dispute over who actually won that war. Who has Canada? That's what I thought.

The way you phrase that makes it sound like you think the War of 1812 took place because America tried to take over Canada. That is not the case. Again we were attacked and again we survived. Some might call that a victory.

Canada wasn't some kind of free country or something, it was part of the British Empire. The British Empire that wanted to conquer the United States. Also, Canada was recognized by all as invaluable to the British because it served as a staging area for offensive operations in those colonies which had always been English. Canada represented an existential threat to the U.S. of A. The people living in Canada were given extreme concessions, sometimes at the expense of the thirteen English colonies, precisely to maintain the loyalty of that colony so that it could be safely exploited as a means to crush the others should they prove disloyal. From the American perspective you're like a bunch of loyalist sell-outs, sacrificing your freedom and betraying the Revolution in exchange for some measly handouts. If your attitude was different I would have expressed sympathy because Canada may not have possessed the means to give effective resistance. But when we invaded, Canadians could have helped.

Canada is still part of the British Commonwealth. Looks like we did win.

It's part of history. Canada won the war of 1812. You came in, we beat you back to Crazyland.

It's been a while since I've studied the war of 1812, but I think it was a bit of both: the U.S. wanted canada, and expected (falsely) that the canadian citizens would want to join them, while the British wanted the U.S. In the end, absolutely nothing changed, the war was a total draw.

Edit: I mean, I think the actual cause of the war was something mundane, like trade routes along the great lakes. It's just that once it got going, we tried to take Canada, and failed hard because we didn't realize the Canadians were quite happy being British subjects. Meanwhile, the British were trying to take parts of the US. They failed too.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Canada is still part of the British Commonwealth. Looks like we did win.

It's part of history. Canada won the war of 1812. You came in, we beat you back to Crazyland.

This is a truly bizarre interpretation of events. You're claiming credit in the name of Canada for things the British Empire did. This is like saying Macon, Georgia won WWII. It may be technically true but it's misleading to the point of delusion. You are deciding the outcome of the war on the outcome of the campaigns in Canada. That makes NO SENSE. We were pushed out of Canada in the Revolution but I doubt you will claim to have won that. Besides, your logic is self defeating. By your measure of success America beat Canada (?lol?) ten times as bad:America is not part of the British Commonwealth. Just sayin'.

 

[WaysideMaze]

Also, you're expecting way too much of the denizens of youtube.

That video is brilliant.

Out of interest, which is the weird part of youtube? Is it the part with 'tube' in the url?

 

[WanderingFool]

July 4th, the day America celebrates its independence.

It's the day the vast majority of Americans get very patriotic towards their country, flags are flown, parties are had, fireworks are let off. It's also the day the rest of the world (England especially) rolls its collective eyes and says under its breath "it's just one day and then we are clear for the next year".

Now, what I'm about to say will be regarding people on Youtube, so I know I'm taking from an already ignorant and generally arseholish (new word) population of people second only in arseholishness (new word #2) to darker places on the internet that I shall not name.

But there seem to be a ton of individuals, Americans, who believe they "kicked the British's ass", adding things like "GG no re", "suck it England", and "you f£&$*%G noobs, learn to fight a war".

I stopped reading there.

There is largely a lot of ignorance from Americans about their own history, as not many saw American history class as important. They know enough of the basics, but none of the finer details, like the fact that we needed the French to win the war. The fact that the British navy and Army were superior in almost everyway tends to be forgotten in the frenzy of dick waving.

 

[God of Path]

Apparently no one knows a George Bernard Shaw quote when they see it.