Why not? The writers chose to hire a black person, and created a role for that person.shrekfan246 said:
Certainly, and that would not apply in that case.shrekfan246 said:
Okay.... Star Trek:TNG is racist and sexist....
- Thread starter DudeistBelieve
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Because not everything has to be a question of racial sensitivity and political correctness.thaluikhain said:
Did he get the role because he was black?
Would any of this even matter if the Klingon in question weren't being portrayed by a black person?
Klingons don't embody any specific 'race' of humans. There is no racial subtext to their species just because of their skin color, or because of the skin color of the person they chose to portray one Klingon. Ascribing primal brutishness and lust to a racial subtext is probably more racist than the writers of The Next Generation actually were.
Probably not. However, the script was written long after the writers knew which race he was.shrekfan246 said:
Nope.shrekfan246 said:
Klingons aren't a race of humans, no. That particular Klingon was played by a real person, from a real race which is (and has long been) often depicted as raping white women, and his character rapes a white woman.shrekfan246 said:
You have to ignore a LOT of evidence to the contrary if you're going to call Star Trek racist or sexist. There are people of all colors and sexes fulfilling Senior Officer roles throughout its canon (including TNG) and they all get their opportunity to save the day and some terrible fate befalls all of them at least thrice.
It's already been established that the Klingons are a harsh people who come from a harsh world; so it makes perfect sense that a proto-Klingon would be both physically and sexually aggressive (because it has to survive and propagate) regardless of its skin tone.
That said, there have been PLENTY of 'white' hounds aboard the Enterprise; so the 'bad guys with primitive instincts' are in no way limited to people of darker skin color.
It's already been established that the Klingons are a harsh people who come from a harsh world; so it makes perfect sense that a proto-Klingon would be both physically and sexually aggressive (because it has to survive and propagate) regardless of its skin tone.
That said, there have been PLENTY of 'white' hounds aboard the Enterprise; so the 'bad guys with primitive instincts' are in no way limited to people of darker skin color.
Do you have any evidence to back that up? I mean you're pretty much the epitome of sanity and reason, so I assume you have a good reason to say this.thaluikhain said:
Very few black people ever played a Klingon in Star Trek except Dorn, so I am pretty weired out by some people statements here...senordesol said:
well I just sat through several semesters about black people in literature... Even did my thesis on this subject...Boris Goodenough said:
The problem stems from the fact that when we enslaved these folks, we pretty much characterized every single personality trait with a sterotype
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/brute/
So fun fact? It's extremely hard to write a black character with out accidentally stepping upon these sterotypes. Hell basically you can't have a black character being helpful friends with a white male character without invoking the Mammy/Magical Negro.
the problem is, the writers sat down and said "so well have Regressed Worf have savaged sex with Mermaid Troi..." with out a hint of irony of realizing what subtext that was invoking
They are all brown, so I guess yes?SaneAmongInsane said:
Are we fogetting that Star Trek (the original series granted) is the first US show to show a black girl kissing a white man? The first show to show a black woman with leadership?
Are you sure it's not just bias analysing this episode?
When I saw the title, I thought for sure this was going to be about the Code of Honour episode. You know, the one that got the director fired for making an entire alien race black tribal stereotypes (even though the script never actually mentioned the aliens skin color), and then turning them into honour bound morons, not to mention Troi being in one of her worst moments throughout the episode. Or hell, at least the Angel One episode that tried to mix reversing gender roles with a metaphor for South African Apartheid. The episode that managed to be sexist against both men and women, and then tried to have white men standing in as a half-assed metaphor for African oppression in South Africa, the one that often appears on lists of worst Start Trek episodes of all time.
As for the episode you do describe, its not the best, but any racism or sexism seems to mostly come from unintentional implications on a small scale. The deal with Worf was more a crack about Klingons, unfortunately, the only Klingon on the ship was a major black character in the series. The weird sexual/assault rape thing is kind of bad, but anything involving Troi was usually very stupid in most of the seasons, even up to the very end. Dunno, there's a lot worse episodes there if you're looking for stuff in Star Trek that looks really bad at first glance.
As for the episode you do describe, its not the best, but any racism or sexism seems to mostly come from unintentional implications on a small scale. The deal with Worf was more a crack about Klingons, unfortunately, the only Klingon on the ship was a major black character in the series. The weird sexual/assault rape thing is kind of bad, but anything involving Troi was usually very stupid in most of the seasons, even up to the very end. Dunno, there's a lot worse episodes there if you're looking for stuff in Star Trek that looks really bad at first glance.
Eh, that certainly means that it's problematic (which is a term that I usually think gets seriously overused these days) and maybe uncomfortably so (and for something made 20 years ago, is probably not unique in that). Did that episode fall into using visuals/themes that fit unfortunate racial/sexual stereotypes? It looks like it (it's been years since I've watched any TNG, so I honestly don't remember that episode) but I don't think that equals "Star Trek:TNG is racist and sexist".SaneAmongInsane said:
Yes, and MLK himself loved the show... However MLK himself was a religious man and allegedly homophobic because of it so not everythings perfect.Boris Goodenough said:
I'm rather shocked no one has jumped upon Troi basically being okay with being taken advantage of while she was incapacitated. Not that Worf really had any say in the matter, still you'd think she'd be traumatized a tad.
Unless... had they hooked up before this episode took place, at which point my whole argument would become mute, kinda.
Yeah, I kinda went full hyperbole on the topic title.Raikas said:
But I've felt this way since I started watching the first season. Particularly the sexist part because of Troi
There was a Voyager episode where Janeway and Paris 'evolved' into reptilian creatures, had sex, and spawned. At the end of the day they just kind of shrugged their shoulders and said 'neither of us were in control of our actions so...we cool.' My read of this episode is that something similar happened here.SaneAmongInsane said:
Also in an early TNG Tasha Yar was...inebriated somehow, banged Data and it was never brought up again.
I think that one actually did come up again. In the episode (or pair of episodes) when they were doing the Data-is-a-being/Data-is-equipment trial he pulls out an image of her and talks about keeping it because they were "intimate". I think it might have come up another time or two as well, but as I said upthread, it's been ages since I watched the series so that's the only time I remember.senordesol said:
Wouldn't it be more racist to specifically avoid such a storyline because the actor playing Worf is black?
Also, if Star Trek is racist, then wouldn't that mean Saints Row is racist too? Michael Dorn played Maero in that series, who wasn't just an a strong brute, but also a criminal.
What would have happened if Michael Dorn got turned down for the part of Maero because he's black?
Mass Effect 2 was probably racist too, as they typecast Michael Dorn as Gatatog Uvenk, another warlike brute who no doubt would have been raping all the women given half a chance.
What about Stargate? That series cast both Christopher Judge and Isaac Hayes as big strong warlike brutes. Was were the writers of Stargate being racist because you could draw parallels between the black Jaffa and the stereotypes of the 'Savage Zulu' and 'Enslaved Negro'. Should they have just made all of the Jaffa white to avoid being racist?
It seems to me that specifically denying actors employment and certain roles in works of fantasy and science fiction, based on their skin colour, is pretty wrong.
Anyway, going back to that episode of Star Trek TNG. Why are you solely focusing on the racism against Michael Dorn and black people. What about the fact that Patrick Stewart, who played a Frenchman, devolved into a cowardly monkey? It was just one step away from having him each cheese and wave a white flag.
Come to think of it, Star Trek is pretty racist. All of the leaders, officers and academics are white, who in turn are served by the token black muscle brute in Worf, Space Stevie Wonder in Engineering (oh, just because he's blind means he has to be black too) and Whoopi Goldberg, who is cast as an alien, but is basically a subservient house servant, getting drinks for all the white masters and being at their beck and call.
You can make anything racist if you try hard enough, but you're probably right, we should ban this sick filth.
Also, if Star Trek is racist, then wouldn't that mean Saints Row is racist too? Michael Dorn played Maero in that series, who wasn't just an a strong brute, but also a criminal.
What would have happened if Michael Dorn got turned down for the part of Maero because he's black?
Mass Effect 2 was probably racist too, as they typecast Michael Dorn as Gatatog Uvenk, another warlike brute who no doubt would have been raping all the women given half a chance.
What about Stargate? That series cast both Christopher Judge and Isaac Hayes as big strong warlike brutes. Was were the writers of Stargate being racist because you could draw parallels between the black Jaffa and the stereotypes of the 'Savage Zulu' and 'Enslaved Negro'. Should they have just made all of the Jaffa white to avoid being racist?
It seems to me that specifically denying actors employment and certain roles in works of fantasy and science fiction, based on their skin colour, is pretty wrong.
Anyway, going back to that episode of Star Trek TNG. Why are you solely focusing on the racism against Michael Dorn and black people. What about the fact that Patrick Stewart, who played a Frenchman, devolved into a cowardly monkey? It was just one step away from having him each cheese and wave a white flag.
Come to think of it, Star Trek is pretty racist. All of the leaders, officers and academics are white, who in turn are served by the token black muscle brute in Worf, Space Stevie Wonder in Engineering (oh, just because he's blind means he has to be black too) and Whoopi Goldberg, who is cast as an alien, but is basically a subservient house servant, getting drinks for all the white masters and being at their beck and call.
You can make anything racist if you try hard enough, but you're probably right, we should ban this sick filth.
Worf isn't black though, he's a Klingon. Klingon's have been played by white people too, so it's not like specifically they pick black people to play them.thaluikhain said:
For starters: Yeah, that was a really stupid episode. Pretty much was a taste of what was to come later in Voyager's Threshold. (I wonder how many trekkies just involuntarily gagged at the mere mention of that name).
EDIT: Nevermind, I misread.
EDIT: Nevermind, I misread.
Personally I found it pretty disturbing that the writers seemed to have skipped science classes.
Edit: Oh it was Brannon Braga that explains it.
Also Chuck from SFDebris covers this episode (and many others) better than I can.
http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/t271.php
Edit: Oh it was Brannon Braga that explains it.
Also Chuck from SFDebris covers this episode (and many others) better than I can.
http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/t271.php