Okay.... Star Trek:TNG is racist and sexist....

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Gorrath

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RicoADF said:
Gorrath said:
For example: We have a race of dark skinned aliens who are violent and brutish. Now we have several choices regarding the casting for these parts.
This is actually incorrect, Klingons aren't just dark skinned, they vary just like humans do, heck Christopher Lloyd from back to the future played as Kruge and he's about as white as you can get. They come in different shapes, sizes and colours
I'm not sure what you mean to be driving at really. Even the pictures you provided show that the race, while having varying skin tones (as one would expect), are all generally of a dark complexion. I suppose we could argue about whether each individual is dark-skinned enough to be considered dark-skinned, but I suspect that would be a rather subjective and pointless debate. Suffice it to say that enough Klingons are portrayed with a dark enough complexion for some people to see racial subtext, but then people can see racial subtext in anything, which was the point I was making with the rest of my post.
 

hermes

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SaneAmongInsane said:
Res Plus said:
No it isn't, not even slightly, you'd be much happier if you stopped going through life trying to underline how wonderfully open minded you are by randomly declaring things "racist" or "sexist".
If I didn't then my English degree would be a waste.
cthulhuspawn82 said:
In order for writers to keep racism/sexism out of their show, they have to recognize that it is there. This is impossible to do because only a select few people have the unique ability to see racism/sexism. A thousand rational men can scrutinize a piece of media and find no racism/sexism whatsoever, but one of these unique individuals will always find it there. Perhaps every movie, game, and TV show needs to hire one of these unique people who have this power to see racism/sexism that nobody else can.
Posted a link in page 1 listing the sterotypes for black people. In truth, I think its extremely difficult to not write a character that doesn't fall into one of the sterotypes but that's only because we've pretty muched sterotyped every behavior a black man can have...
The problem is not being aware how it has a fucked up subtext. A lot of time it isn't though, and the majority of people don't see it for some reason.
And those two lines just show the issue here.
If you want to go through life calling "racism this" and "racism that", its your prerogative; but just because you obsess about it and search a racial subtext into everything doesn't make it so. In fact, I am much more inclined to see it as a warped personal opinion that any "evidence" the show was racist.
 

smartalec

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thaluikhain said:
You could have a black person not raping a white woman.
That is actually what they had. There's no rape or implied rape in this episode.

Weren't the Klingons supposed to be a Soviet Union analogue in the classic series?
 

Thaluikhain

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moggett88 said:
I have no love for the Star Trek franchise, never been a fan, but as an outsider I will say this;

You say that because the Klingon guy was a beast and raped someone, it's racist against black people. If the white guy you said turned into a caveman did it instead, would that be racist against white people? 'Cause it sounds like you would have been fine with that.
Black men are stereotyped as wanting to rape white women, white men are not. Likewise, things that would be racist when depicted as being done by, Asians, say, may not be if they were being done by black people instead, if there's no stereotype of black people doing that.
 

Gorrath

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thaluikhain said:
Gorrath said:
NO matter which way you slice it, someone can come up with a reason why there's a racial issue at hand because of how different people view racial politics. The idea that simply swapping out Dorn for a white actor would have prevented a problem I think ignores the other accusations that could be made if the situation were different.
Er, sure, if you got a white person in blackface, that's also not good. That isn't the only other option.

You could have a white person not in blackface. You could have a black person not raping a white woman.
Without just re-posting what I already said about the various issues, you have several options any of which can lead someone to reading racial subtext into any decision you make. Also there is no "Black person raping a white woman" anywhere in the scene. At worst you have a black actor portraying an alien who rapes another alien who has light skin, but the "rape" part of it isn't even something that actually happened in the scene, it's an assumption some people make.

You say having a white person in blackface would be bad. So do you cast the whole race as black actors instead? That does nothing to fix the very subtext you are seeing in this particular scene and in fact spreads it to every other scene where a Klingon is violent.

You could have made the race light instead of dark skinned, but then someone else can just complain of white washing and taking jobs away from minority actors.
 
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[HEADING=1]SUBTEXT!!![/HEADING]

Honestly though, while I hate using South Park for this your acting like the people in the episode The Tale of Scrotie McBoogerballs. There is no intended racist subtext here and there was no rape. I had to look up the plot of episode online to reaffirm this as it has been awhile since I seen TNG and all that happened was she was bitten on the cheek as a prehistoric mating ritual. The purpose of which as far as I remember was to signify intent to mate. The claws and thrown objects come later, along with the poetry.

You really just seem like you're looking for something that isn't there in probably the worst episode of the series imho. I really think any underlying meaning in the episode is something your putting in and not actually there. As for early Klingons being dark ever thought that maybe had to do with whatever make up they were using at the time? Since, it is supposed like a weird Cold war thing going on with them being the East.
 

Signa

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Ok, it's official. Racism is dead. If this is what we've come to to start finding social injustices in our world (a show about aliens that ended 20 years ago ), then there is no real racism left anymore to call out.

C'mon, tell me I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, then go call it out where it needs calling out, because it's certainly not here. Christ, Roddenberry has to be spinning in his grave right now.
 

shrekfan246

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thaluikhain said:
You could have a black person not raping a white woman.
Should we no longer show black people in anything related to gangs? Since, stereotypically, many gang members tend to be black?

Should we no longer show black people rapping? Since, stereotypically, many rappers are black?

Please explain to me how saying "You can't show [Nationality/skin color] people doing [action that might be stereotypically associated with them]" is helping to actually combat racism. Especially since combating racism and combating stereotypes aren't the same thing.
 

moggett88

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thaluikhain said:
moggett88 said:
I have no love for the Star Trek franchise, never been a fan, but as an outsider I will say this;

You say that because the Klingon guy was a beast and raped someone, it's racist against black people. If the white guy you said turned into a caveman did it instead, would that be racist against white people? 'Cause it sounds like you would have been fine with that.
Black men are stereotyped as wanting to rape white women, white men are not. Likewise, things that would be racist when depicted as being done by, Asians, say, may not be if they were being done by black people instead, if there's no stereotype of black people doing that.
So if he was raping a black woman, it wouldn't be racist anymore? What about if a white guy was raping a black woman? Too many crazy rules man.

I think we should just say "everything is racist now, noone say or do anything". Much simpler that way.
 

grey_space

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SaneAmongInsane said:
Boris Goodenough said:
thaluikhain said:
Very few black people ever played a Klingon in Star Trek except Dorn, so I am pretty weired out by some people statements here...
this I did not knoW, as I'm still a Trek newb.

Are they all portrayed as having a dark complexion however? ohhh because even that is.... Blackfacey....
Some have darker skin that others, no more than some Vulcan's have darker skin than other Vulcans and some Ferengi have darker skin that other Ferengi.

Star Trek really is colour blind unless of course they are doing some episode that alludes to the perils of racism.

However, if you are new to Trek, I would encourage you to research the underlying ethos and history of the show. Even back in the original series it broke several social taboos in an effort to promote racial and sexual equality (first interracial kiss)

In the Next Generation that was brought even more to the forefront (changing the intro speech by the captain to 'where no one has gone before' rather than 'where no man has gone before'

Now in saying that both series are representative of their times and by our modern cultural mores could indeed be judged incredibly harshly if you so wish.

But at the time they were in some instances, socially ground-breaking.

And as Falloutjack has mentioned, Michael Dorn I'm sure would have spoken out if there was any perceived or implied racism from his point in the episode. Cast members in TNG had a lot of power, several of them writing, directing, and producing numerous episodes throughout the series run. I know for a fact that Dorm directed at least one himself.

Now that's not to say that the episode itself is not a pile of wank, but racist?

I think not sir.
 

DudeistBelieve

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Stu35 said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
Star Trek:TNG is racist and sexist....
Sigh... Here we go...


all of the crew have basically de-evolved back to their primal states.... and of course that means it's made Worf into an animalistic brute intent on raping Troi.

Now look, yeah Worf is a klingon but for fucks sakes, I'd be a moron to not see the racial subtext there either
Of course... Black actor playing an Alien = Racial subtext where Alien=Black people. You're so fucking deep.


intentionally or unintentionally.
The unintentional bit is of importance. See, you deciding to see Racism where none was present is YOUR problem. So the usual "OMG RACISM!" panic button with it's "It might be UNINTENTIONAL, but IT'S STILL THERE SO I'M OFFENDED!" does not fly with me.
Gonna stop you right there, sir. First off, no reason to be hostile. ;)

Racism and the invoking of racial sterotypes is nearly ALWAYS unintentional. 'Cause, you know, human beings have a bias of always seeing themselves in the best possible light. It's extremely fucking rare for a person to be intentionally racist.

Also, dude c'mon. Someone in the writing room said "...And well have Devolved Worf go on rampage for Troi's pussy" with out realizing the racist imagery they were invoking by ignorant slave holders many many years ago. That's a problem, Klingon or not.

But I suspect you also believe I want to go ahead and destroy a show that's decades old.... Why yes, I'm so offended I'm enjoying another episode right now.

smartalec said:
thaluikhain said:
You could have a black person not raping a white woman.
That is actually what they had. There's no rape or implied rape in this episode.

Weren't the Klingons supposed to be a Soviet Union analogue in the classic series?
...Except the previous bite mark Troi already had.

Someone pointed out how that was her only injury.... But Picard and Data aren't Doctors and only did like a quick check on her, so would they even be able to spot possible signs of a forced sexual incounter?

Also this gives me a good idea for a spin off- STARTREK: SVU! SEX CRIMES IN SPPPPPAAAACCCEEEEEE!!!!

Glademaster said:
[HEADING=1]SUBTEXT!!![/HEADING]

Honestly though, while I hate using South Park for this your acting like the people in the episode The Tale of Scrotie McBoogerballs. There is no intended racist subtext here and there was no rape. I had to look up the plot of episode online to reaffirm this as it has been awhile since I seen TNG and all that happened was she was bitten on the cheek as a prehistoric mating ritual. The purpose of which as far as I remember was to signify intent to mate. The claws and thrown objects come later, along with the poetry.

You really just seem like you're looking for something that isn't there in probably the worst episode of the series imho. I really think any underlying meaning in the episode is something your putting in and not actually there. As for early Klingons being dark ever thought that maybe had to do with whatever make up they were using at the time? Since, it is supposed like a weird Cold war thing going on with them being the East.
Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.

The biting is a sign of a RITUAL? Like a cultural thing or an animal thing?

Cause one way shows a degree of sentience on Worf's part, and they make it pretty clear Troi is just a dumb frog at the start of the episode.... And even still, it's kind of Rapey. One animal marks another as his property and comes to fuck it... I mean sure, it's animals.

Someone else pointed out that Klingons come in all shades and colors, so I was corrected on that. Admittedly I'm still new to Trek so a lot of this is me talking out my ass.


shrekfan246 said:
thaluikhain said:
You could have a black person not raping a white woman.
Should we no longer show black people in anything related to gangs? Since, stereotypically, many gang members tend to be black?

Should we no longer show black people rapping? Since, stereotypically, many rappers are black?

Please explain to me how saying "You can't show [Nationality/skin color] people doing [action that might be stereotypically associated with them]" is helping to actually combat racism. Especially since combating racism and combating stereotypes aren't the same thing.
Not that you can't show it, do it, or even enjoy it. Who doesn't love the NWA? But it's important to be able to recognize this stuff when you see it.

Signa said:
Ok, it's official. Racism is dead. If this is what we've come to to start finding social injustices in our world (a show about aliens that ended 20 years ago ), then there is no real racism left anymore to call out.

C'mon, tell me I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, then go call it out where it needs calling out, because it's certainly not here. Christ, Roddenberry has to be spinning in his grave right now.
You're being dramatic. If you pay attention to the old imagery, and watch media today you'll see the racist caricatures keep popping up.

Res Plus said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
No it isn't, not even slightly, you'd be much happier if you stopped going through life trying to underline how wonderfully open minded you are by randomly declaring things "racist" or "sexist".

If I didn't then my English degree would be a waste.
Snap! I have an English degree too, it was so commercially useless I went back to do law!

Surely you could write a poem or something instead?

All this obsessing about "subtext this" and "objectify that" doesn't really achieve much. When we get to the bit where the triumphant "-ismer" cries, "it's all subconsciously included", neatly negating any tedious counter arguments and opening up absolutely any media ever created to the dread "-ism" razor, doesn't that give you the shudder that one feels in the face of any form of zealotry and make you want to back away?
Holy shit, you found a job in Law? I'm being sincere, that's an accomplishment. I've read nothing from years about Law students turning around and complaining that there are no jobs out there. But yes, my degree is commercially useless.

And no... This is just pointless nonsense. This is what I do for fun and how I view any medium of story telling, looking for these tropes, these sexist or racists bits. It's fun. And I pointed it out just to see if anyone else saw it the way I do, and a couple did. The majority aren't but they aren't also as big of a nerd as I am when it comes to story and plot.

I don't even mean it to be a knock on TNG as a whole, cause really it's not, I just like pointing out shit.
 

senordesol

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SaneAmongInsane said:
Gonna stop you right there, sir. First off, no reason to be hostile. ;)

Racism and the invoking of racial sterotypes is nearly ALWAYS unintentional. 'Cause, you know, human beings have a bias of always seeing themselves in the best possible light. It's extremely fucking rare for a person to be intentionally racist.

Also, dude c'mon. Someone in the writing room said "...And well have Devolved Worf go on rampage for Troi's pussy" with out realizing the racist imagery they were invoking by ignorant slave holders many many years ago. That's a problem, Klingon or not.

But I suspect you also believe I want to go ahead and destroy a show that's decades old.... Why yes, I'm so offended I'm enjoying another episode right now.
Wait! Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. I just want to go ahead and mark that right there.

It its heyday. Racism in media was ALWAYS intentional. Got a black character? Make him dumb, illiterate, violent, gullible, and/or ill spoken. That was, straight-up, how black people were portrayed INTENTIONALLY. That, therefore, was racist as it actively marginalized an entire race to those undesirable categories.

That is damaging, that is malignant.

...and that DIDN'T happen here. There's nothing wrong with portraying a black person -or a person of any color- with stereotypical flaws (the stereotype has to come from somewhere, after all) so long as that's not their single identifying feature and/or universal amongst the cast of that particular race. Anything beyond that is to suggest (just to use this as an example) that black men NEVER EVER rape or are violent and to portray them as such is demeaning...which is an incredibly...ill-informed position to take.

Using your reasoning; I could argue that James Camreon's Avatar is racist against white people because Colonel Quatric and the corporate millionaire are gleaming hallmarks of stereotypical white colonial imperialism.
 

wulf3n

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What I've always found fascinating with threads like these is they reveal the racism held by those who try so hard to show they're not racist.

It's like when a person has homosexual thoughts and then goes on a crusade attacking other homosexuals because they're so afraid that someone might suspect them.
 

theNater

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SaneAmongInsane said:
Someone pointed out how that was her only injury.... But Picard and Data aren't Doctors and only did like a quick check on her, so would they even be able to spot possible signs of a forced sexual incounter?
I'm pretty sure Starfleet officer training includes enough first aid to spot broken bones, even without a tricorder.
 

Asita

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SaneAmongInsane said:
Gonna stop you right there, sir. First off, no reason to be hostile. ;)

Racism and the invoking of racial sterotypes is nearly ALWAYS unintentional. 'Cause, you know, human beings have a bias of always seeing themselves in the best possible light. It's extremely fucking rare for a person to be intentionally racist.

Also, dude c'mon. Someone in the writing room said "...And well have Devolved Worf go on rampage for Troi's pussy" with out realizing the racist imagery they were invoking by ignorant slave holders many many years ago. That's a problem, Klingon or not.

But I suspect you also believe I want to go ahead and destroy a show that's decades old.... Why yes, I'm so offended I'm enjoying another episode right now.
You are perhaps aware that this episode occurred during a period of the show where Worf and Troi were romantically involved? That kinda changes the subtext significantly, especially given the mental regression everyone was experiencing at the time which heavily implied that the bite was simply an animalistic marking of a mate...which is exactly what we'd expect a more primal mind to register a romantic interest as.
 

Nosforontu

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SaneAmongInsane said:
Stu35 said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
Star Trek:TNG is racist and sexist....
Someone pointed out how that was her only injury.... But Picard and Data aren't Doctors and only did like a quick check on her, so would they even be able to spot possible signs of a forced sexual incounter?

Also this gives me a good idea for a spin off- STARTREK: SVU! SEX CRIMES IN SPPPPPAAAACCCEEEEEE!!!!
Hopefully I got the quoting right and this wont be a fairly confusing response:)

However slightly more seriously the Klingon's and their mating habits carry very high certainties of causing significant injuries for both parties. Broken limbs and extensive bruising, cuts bites etc would be commonly found on both partners after mating. If Worf truly mated with Troi instead of simply showing his interest in her and warning off other predators that she is his and under his protection. Then it is unlikely that even two characters who are not trained medical technicians would miss signs of injury.

Essentially if I remember right Klingon's of both genders more or less regard sex in much the same regard as they regard battle and both partners essentially try to cause injury to their partners to both prove their own worth as warriors and test how worthy their partner is to pass on their genes to the next generation.

One other thing to keep in mind is that in the scene Worf and Troi are either already in a relationship with each other or have been building up to a relationship on the show and this is one of the early overt physical intimacies of their relationship. This was essentially a way to signal that they were no longer doing Troi/Riker Romantic tension story lines (till the movies at least) and were instead doing Worf/Troi story lines. Which was during the time period to see an actual interracial couple on tv especially between series stars.


SaneAmongInsane said:
Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.

The biting is a sign of a RITUAL? Like a cultural thing or an animal thing?
Probably a bit of both Klingon's as a species are used in Trek to essentially represent Space Vikings/Mongol Horde with a dash of Japanese Samurai and Spartan culture blended together. Just as Vulcans represent humanities intellect ungoverned by Human emotion and Ferringie represent Humanities greed and materialism. In many ways Treks Federation is a story during Roddenberry era of humans moving away from our Klingon and Ferringie like impulses and moving more towards a Vulcan calmness.

The Klingons are a violent species that has a physiology that is built for violence. Essentially I would say default Klingon mating rituals are most frequently expected to be fairly rough sex for both partners going into it. Worf is a bit unusual for a Klingon for being very disciplined compared to other Klingons and finds the casual violence of other Klingons to be distasteful.


Something to keep in mind in Trek overall is that skin color does not meaningfully matter to any of the major species that I can think of since the original Trek Episode which featured an alien race locked into a civil war with each other because some of its members were black on one side and white on the other and the others were white on one side and black on the other. To which the crew of the original enterprise were incredulous that this mattered at all and that they would kill each other over such a small triviality.

Gender matters a bit more but even then it is mostly just a matter if two characters gender orientation matches up more so than it having much impact past that (though you could probably make a better argument that deprived bisexuality being an active trope in the mirror universe). Trill with hosts tend to be casually bisexual for example as both the Trill that romanced Doctor Crusher saw no real problem with trying to continue the relationship with her after the current host body died and was implanted in a new female body. While Dax still showed significant feelings for an old flame even though both were currently in Female bodies. Keep in mind this was back in an era where same sex couples were more or less nonexistent and I think her same sex romance episode predates Gay Willow from Buffy and might predate Ellen coming out but I am not certain.

While Trek does not seem to have a problem with same sex couples in universe they are much less commonly shown than interracial or inter species couples, and I cannot recall seeing a long lasting same sex pairing yet on the show or a same sex marriage.

Species matters probably the most and interspecies couples are probably the most controversial in universe and are the relationships that are most likely to involve story telling about the problems/travails that interracial couples may have. Even so they are rarely stigmatized within the Federation though other major trek civilization will react differently based on their Species tropes. Most of the time in the Federation all it does is raise an eyebrow or two at the unusualness of the pairing
 

SeventhSigil

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Episode itself was kind of blech, but I have to disagree. I think Worf was the perfect character for that encounter with Troi.

Hear me out. It's already been brought up that Klingons are generally about violent, and that I'm equally violent ancestor is only natural. This is true, but it's only part of it. One should also take a closer look at Worf as a character. In some ways, he is the most disciplined and stoic member of the crew. He avoids pursuing any form of romance or flirtation with other crew members for a large chunk of the series (explaining to Guinan that he considers human women too 'fragile,') and his honor and code of conduct is the most important aspect of his life. His discipline is key to his entire personality, and if you ever saw that DS9 episode where Dax drags him off to Risa, it actually retroactively explains a great deal of that. But compared to Riker, even Picard or Crusher, he is far more restrained, and far more concerned with what is right and honorable.

If you were trying to create a disconnect between how the character normally behaved, and how he was behaving at during the 'transformation,' Worf was the PERFECT character for that. The only one better suited would have been Data, but fortunately their science didn't get so soft as to try that shit again.

For Worf to even attempt to impose himself on Troi, that was all manner of shocking, not because it was a black man assaulting a white girl, but because it was freaking WORF. To see our honorable, stalwart Klingon behaving in such a manner was disturbing in a way far more profound and poignant because of who he was, NOT what he looked like.

They didn't decide to stick the black guy into the rape encounter, they decided to stick the character who was the most sexually repressed and behaviourally conscious into the rape encounter.

And that's part of what the success of the series as a progressive force for racial equality has been. Racial equality isn't just about walking on eggshells, trying not to say something that someone could somehow interpret as biased. Equality is looking at the traits of a character, looking at what you want to have happen, whether it's an action that fits the character, or deliberately runs contrary to their usual pattern of behavior to suggest something is amiss, and asking yourself 'does this work?' To which character an action is assigned should be based upon the traits of that character versus the effect being sought, and NEVER be based upon the color of their skin. The brief scene with Troi was intended to be shocking and discomforting, yes, but not because it was a black man assaulting the poor white girl, but because the action is one that Worf, as a CHARACTER, would never have attempted under normal circumstances.

Now you could argue that it still shows a black man assaulting a white girl, but if the suggestion here is that the scene should have been modified, that Worf should have been removed from that role solely because of the color of his skin, then congratulations, you're doing exactly what you are accusing the source material of doing. You are looking at a narrative, and trying to assign actions and roles using race and skin colour as a measuring stick. Sure, you might tell yourself that you're trying to portray said race in a positive light, but the fact remains that you are still allowing it to cloud your judgment, and slant your material.

The show has definitely had its stumbles. Again, that tribal episode, and that godforsaken episode about the colony full of Irishmen, you'd have better luck trying to leverage accusations about those. But for the episode you're focusing on, frankly, all I see are writers taking the characters, and assigning them whatever roles best serve the purpose of the narrative, and THAT is true equality. Anything short of that, trying to substitute for a whiter character in the antagonist position 'just because racism', just does the very thing we are trying to avoid, by saying 'we should treat this black character differently than we would if he was white.'