Oklahoma mom shoots and kills intruder

[emeraldrafael]

pfft. If she had really meant business she would have hunted the other down and kill them too.

...

But in all reality this is a matter of self defnse in my mind, so I cant fault her.

 

[Jegsimmons]

I said nothing about the victims, didn't mention that. I simply said that criminals aren't bad people and don't deserve to die or live in prison for the rest of their life.

...........

criminals aren't bad people

buddy....have you ever heard of people like Ed Gien, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and John Wayne Gacy?

The fact that people like those 4 existed in this world removes anything valid from that sentence.

 

[jdun]

Easily justified. The burglars knew full well that they were operating outside the rules of society when they broke into her house with a knife. Clearly the police had no intention of showing up anytime soon, and she had a baby to protect. What happened to the old saying, "Don't aim your weapon unless you intend to use it"?
If she'd have fired a warning shot, one of two things would have happened.

#1. The burglars decide it's not worth getting shot over, and run away and never bother her again.
#2. The burglars decide to continue their charge and now they're angry about being shot at. Or they leave and decide to punish her and her child with a petrol bomb through the window or another home invasion when the baby's with a sitter, and the gun-toting mother isn't around.

In short, warning shots don't work. It's the equivalent of showing your poker opponents your hand. She shot one of them, the other one knows she's not to be fucked with. She's not just waving a gun around for show, she knows how to use the thing.

I hope I'm making sense.

You don't fire warning shots. That's illegal and only happen in the movies. Bullets don't magically disappear when fired. It has to hit something hard enough to stop it. God forbid the warning shot hit a kid walking down the street.

If you tell the police officer in the USA that you intentionally fire warning shots you will open the door for prosecution and/or civil lawsuits. Why? When you fire a warning shot it tells the judge that you do not think the person is a threat and hence you have no legal standing to used your firearms.

You do not pull a gun on someone unless you intend to kill them. That's the hard brutal truth of it.

Well, I did not know that, being English myself, but thank you for providing me with a little more grounding for my argument.

When you go to a firearms or defensive training school, the teacher will either directly or indirectly tell you to kill the criminal in your home.

The reasons are dead criminal(s) can't talk in court. That means the prosecutor have only one thing to relies on, the scene of the shooting which is in your own home. It's now you vs. the dead guy in your living room instead of you vs. the criminal in court. The second reason is dead criminals won't be able to file civil lawsuits.

There are states that have the Castle doctrine where you are allow to kill home invaders without prosecution and immune to civil lawsuits. The Castle doctrine depending on the states will allow you to stand your ground and kill the SOB in your property on the spot. No running, hiding, or any BS. Just take your gun out and kill the SOB.

Oklahoma has adopted the Castle Doctrine, however I haven't read into it. So the young lady will not be prosecuted. In my book she is a heroine.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69782

 

[samsonguy920]

Far as I know, you shouldn't be able to get away with killing someone in a situation like that unless you had reason to believe that *they would kill you* if you didn't do something about it and you didn't have any other alternatives available to you.

Reading the article, it doesn't seem like that's the case. If she just shot him the instant he entered then clearly she had other alternatives, such as simply pointing the gun at him and telling him to piss off.

I'm not saying I don't understand why she did it, or even that I know I would do different in the same situation, but I think that any time that you kill someone, there should be consequences for it, even if the killing was understandable. To do anything else would be totally inconsistent with cultural values, such as the placing of an inherent value to human life.

Personally I am very disturbed that the same people who are happy to say that human life is precious are often equally happy to celebrate murders if they didn't like the people who got killed.

Just when are you supposed to know an intruder's intentions? Do you ask them over a cup of tea? They already crossed the line when they entered her home uninvited. That's castle law.
And if you think she isn't dealing with any consequences, think again. She has to live with the fact that she did shoot and kill someone. That sticks with you.

 

[default]

Thank god, more scum removed from the earth.

Like someone said before, if I met this woman I'd give her a big old handshake and a clap on the back. Completely and utterly justified. I'd pull the fucking trigger myself and then hunt down the other guy.

 

[gigastar]

I would call it justified, though if it was me i would have blasted out thier knees instead of merely killing them.

well when its a woman and her baby, their isnt much option, especially since he had a knife, he could have decided to just have crawled to them.
also, leg wounds can be equally lethal.

I dont think you understand how much a mangled knee can hurt, my sister tore hers up pretty badly (internally) in early 2011, when the doctors finally decided something was wrong and took her to hospital i could hear her sreaming in pain over the ambulance siren, while we were on opposite sides of the ambulance.

On a side note, if you must know what i mean by "finally decided something was wrong" she had an unusual injury to her kneecap that didnt show up on X-ray, so they decided she was overreacting and sent her home. MRI scan fixed that though, and many words were had shortly afterwards, most of them angry swears.

Also if someone could put up with that kind of pain to get close enough to be a danger, i still have a shotgun. Loaded or not i could just gun butt him in the back of the head to knock him out, and disarm him in the meantime.

 

[Saltyk]

I would call it justified, though if it was me i would have blasted out thier knees instead of merely killing them.

well when its a woman and her baby, their isnt much option, especially since he had a knife, he could have decided to just have crawled to them.
also, leg wounds can be equally lethal.

I dont think you understand how much a mangled knee can hurt, my sister tore hers up pretty badly (internally) in early 2011, when the doctors finally decided something was wrong and took her to hospital i could hear her sreaming in pain over the ambulance siren, while we were on opposite sides of the ambulance.

On a side note, if you must know what i mean by "finally decided something was wrong" she had an unusual injury to her kneecap that didnt show up on X-ray, so they decided she was overreacting and sent her home. MRI scan fixed that though, and many words were had shortly afterwards, most of them angry swears.

Also if someone could put up with that kind of pain to get close enough to be a danger, i still have a shotgun. Loaded or not i could just gun butt him in the back of the head to knock him out, and disarm him in the meantime.

Two things.
1) There were two intruders.
2) She had a baby.

That changes the situation drastically. She wasn't just protecting herself, but also her son. Taking chances would be foolish. Especially with two people to contend with.

Anyway, hopefully your sister is better and no worse for the wear.

 

[BoogieManFL]

I'm always amazed by the level of idiocy people exhibit defending criminals.

In my eyes the moment you disregard another person's rights and safety by attacking them or invading their home is the same moment you lose your own rights. If you enter someone's house with the intent to cause harm, even just by stealing, you better damn well expect that the owner might use lethal force to stop you.


You are a moron if you believe someone should further endanger themselves and their loved ones by *hoping* their attackers won't use lethal force. You probably haven't been affected by real crime yourself or been in a dangerous situation. A moments hesitation can cost you dearly. Assess the situation. If you genuinely feel there is a direct threat against you or your loves ones, the gloves come off. Better a lawful person survives, than a scumbag criminal who would have affected others with their lawlessness.

Even if you're not home, knowing someone entered your home and stole things important to you makes you feel violated and destroys your sense of security. Everyone should feel safe and comfortable in their own home.

If you illegally enter someone's home, you're fair game.

 

[Jegsimmons]

I would call it justified, though if it was me i would have blasted out thier knees instead of merely killing them.

well when its a woman and her baby, their isnt much option, especially since he had a knife, he could have decided to just have crawled to them.
also, leg wounds can be equally lethal.

I dont think you understand how much a mangled knee can hurt, my sister tore hers up pretty badly (internally) in early 2011, when the doctors finally decided something was wrong and took her to hospital i could hear her sreaming in pain over the ambulance siren, while we were on opposite sides of the ambulance.

On a side note, if you must know what i mean by "finally decided something was wrong" she had an unusual injury to her kneecap that didnt show up on X-ray, so they decided she was overreacting and sent her home. MRI scan fixed that though, and many words were had shortly afterwards, most of them angry swears.

Also if someone could put up with that kind of pain to get close enough to be a danger, i still have a shotgun. Loaded or not i could just gun butt him in the back of the head to knock him out, and disarm him in the meantime.

Well, yes, true, but still it was IN HER BATHROOM, and it still presented a danger, maby if she was a full grown man, but at the same time, either way she stopped the criminal.
and yes, knee injuries hurt, ive suffered haveing dislocated my knee 80 degrees out of place (the ambulance ride and the pain meds with oxygen made it worth it.

 

[BoogieManFL]

I would call it justified, though if it was me i would have blasted out thier knees instead of merely killing them.

well when its a woman and her baby, their isnt much option, especially since he had a knife, he could have decided to just have crawled to them.
also, leg wounds can be equally lethal.

I dont think you understand how much a mangled knee can hurt, my sister tore hers up pretty badly (internally) in early 2011, when the doctors finally decided something was wrong and took her to hospital i could hear her sreaming in pain over the ambulance siren, while we were on opposite sides of the ambulance.

On a side note, if you must know what i mean by "finally decided something was wrong" she had an unusual injury to her kneecap that didnt show up on X-ray, so they decided she was overreacting and sent her home. MRI scan fixed that though, and many words were had shortly afterwards, most of them angry swears.

Also if someone could put up with that kind of pain to get close enough to be a danger, i still have a shotgun. Loaded or not i could just gun butt him in the back of the head to knock him out, and disarm him in the meantime.

Well, yes, true, but still it was IN HER BATHROOM, and it still presented a danger, maby if she was a full grown man, but at the same time, either way she stopped the criminal.
and yes, knee injuries hurt, ive suffered haveing dislocated my knee 80 degrees out of place (the ambulance ride and the pain meds with oxygen made it worth it.

It was a shotgun. Those leave massive wounds especially at close range. You shoot someone in the leg, that leg is gone. Followed by a lethal amount of blood loss.

 

[orangeban]

I said nothing about the victims, didn't mention that. I simply said that criminals aren't bad people and don't deserve to die or live in prison for the rest of their life.

...........

criminals aren't bad people

buddy....have you ever heard of people like Ed Gien, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and John Wayne Gacy?

The fact that people like those 4 existed in this world removes anything valid from that sentence.

Let us look at Jeffrey Dahmer, the man was diagnosed with several mental illnesses (I think it was a form in psychosis to be specific).

They're pretty sure Ted Bundy had bipolar or something along those lines

Ed Gein was abused in childhood and was raised to think that all women were prostitutes

John Wayne Gacy was molested and abused in childhood

These aren't people who are commiting crime because they're soulless bastards, they commit the crime because of their own serious problems, problems that prison should try to address.

 

[TheOneBearded]

Once you think you are above the law (robbing, murder, etc) and believe you don't have to follow it, you stop being a person and start becoming a monster - and monsters must be purged from society to save the rest of the good people that are still left in it.

 

[BoogieManFL]

I said nothing about the victims, didn't mention that. I simply said that criminals aren't bad people and don't deserve to die or live in prison for the rest of their life.

...........

criminals aren't bad people

buddy....have you ever heard of people like Ed Gien, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and John Wayne Gacy?

The fact that people like those 4 existed in this world removes anything valid from that sentence.

Let us look at Jeffrey Dahmer, the man was diagnosed with several mental illnesses (I think it was a form in psychosis to be specific).

They're pretty sure Ted Bundy had bipolar or something along those lines

Ed Gein was abused in childhood and was raised to think that all women were prostitutes

John Wayne Gacy was molested and abused in childhood

These aren't people who are commiting crime because they're soulless bastards, they commit the crime because of their own serious problems, problems that prison should try to address.

Many violent criminals have no specific excuse to fall back on so a sweeping statement that criminals aren't bad people is doesn't apply since it doesn't apply to the majority.

Maybe those with severe childhood problems. Anyone else it's all on them, they're in charge of their own lives and actions.

 

[orangeban]

I said nothing about the victims, didn't mention that. I simply said that criminals aren't bad people and don't deserve to die or live in prison for the rest of their life.

...........

criminals aren't bad people

buddy....have you ever heard of people like Ed Gien, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and John Wayne Gacy?

The fact that people like those 4 existed in this world removes anything valid from that sentence.

Let us look at Jeffrey Dahmer, the man was diagnosed with several mental illnesses (I think it was a form in psychosis to be specific).

They're pretty sure Ted Bundy had bipolar or something along those lines

Ed Gein was abused in childhood and was raised to think that all women were prostitutes

John Wayne Gacy was molested and abused in childhood

These aren't people who are commiting crime because they're soulless bastards, they commit the crime because of their own serious problems, problems that prison should try to address.

Many violent criminals have no specific excuse to fall back on so a sweeping statement that criminals aren't bad people is doesn't apply since it doesn't apply to the majority.

Maybe those with severe childhood problems. Anyone else it's all on them, they're in charge of their own lives and actions.

Yeah, but that still doesn't make them bad people, people have reasons for doing things.

Maybe these reasons are stupid, perhaps the criminal was angry

Maybe these reasons are nonsense, or made-up, perhaps the criminal had a mental illness or was on drugs

Maybe these reasons seem perfectly justified, maybe the criminal saw it as justice, or it was a case of kill or be killed.

What I'm saying is, good and evil is a subjective matter, and, crucially, it is decided within a persons own head. Now, maybe everyone doesn't define their actions as good, but no-one calls their actions evil, not really. People do things for reasons, and prison should educate people about what reasons are acceptable, and to help people realise this.

 

[Jegsimmons]

I said nothing about the victims, didn't mention that. I simply said that criminals aren't bad people and don't deserve to die or live in prison for the rest of their life.

...........

criminals aren't bad people

buddy....have you ever heard of people like Ed Gien, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and John Wayne Gacy?

The fact that people like those 4 existed in this world removes anything valid from that sentence.

Let us look at Jeffrey Dahmer, the man was diagnosed with several mental illnesses (I think it was a form in psychosis to be specific).

They're pretty sure Ted Bundy had bipolar or something along those lines

Ed Gein was abused in childhood and was raised to think that all women were prostitutes

John Wayne Gacy was molested and abused in childhood

These aren't people who are commiting crime because they're soulless bastards, they commit the crime because of their own serious problems, problems that prison should try to address.

Dude, bipolar does not make some one a mass murderer. so i award no points.
Even if they WERE prostitutes, that wouldnt hold up in court because whore have rights too. No points awarded.
John Wayne Gacy had a life to learn right and wrong
or how about the child molesters and murderers who are completely sound but are just evil people.
our how about hitler, stalin, ect. care to defend them on mental grounds?
How about the kids at columbine? or the virginia tech guy?

fact is, some people are beyond help and deserve what ever life dishes out to them

 

[gigastar]

I would call it justified, though if it was me i would have blasted out thier knees instead of merely killing them.

well when its a woman and her baby, their isnt much option, especially since he had a knife, he could have decided to just have crawled to them.
also, leg wounds can be equally lethal.

I dont think you understand how much a mangled knee can hurt, my sister tore hers up pretty badly (internally) in early 2011, when the doctors finally decided something was wrong and took her to hospital i could hear her sreaming in pain over the ambulance siren, while we were on opposite sides of the ambulance.

On a side note, if you must know what i mean by "finally decided something was wrong" she had an unusual injury to her kneecap that didnt show up on X-ray, so they decided she was overreacting and sent her home. MRI scan fixed that though, and many words were had shortly afterwards, most of them angry swears.

Also if someone could put up with that kind of pain to get close enough to be a danger, i still have a shotgun. Loaded or not i could just gun butt him in the back of the head to knock him out, and disarm him in the meantime.

Two things.
1) There were two intruders.
2) She had a baby.

That changes the situation drastically. She wasn't just protecting herself, but also her son. Taking chances would be foolish. Especially with two people to contend with.

Well running over the situation in my head, the only real trouble would be if the shotgun was a single shot then reload thing that only American red necks and English bird hunters seem to desperately cling onto.

Simply this, two intruders, at least two shots from a shotgun. Even a novice shooter would find it hard to miss at a distance of less than 5 meters with a shotgun.

Anyway, hopefully your sister is better and no worse for the wear.

Well she made pretty much a full recovery, and is now understandably very cautious of the same thing ever happening again.

 

[gigastar]

I would call it justified, though if it was me i would have blasted out thier knees instead of merely killing them.

well when its a woman and her baby, their isnt much option, especially since he had a knife, he could have decided to just have crawled to them.
also, leg wounds can be equally lethal.

I dont think you understand how much a mangled knee can hurt, my sister tore hers up pretty badly (internally) in early 2011, when the doctors finally decided something was wrong and took her to hospital i could hear her sreaming in pain over the ambulance siren, while we were on opposite sides of the ambulance.

On a side note, if you must know what i mean by "finally decided something was wrong" she had an unusual injury to her kneecap that didnt show up on X-ray, so they decided she was overreacting and sent her home. MRI scan fixed that though, and many words were had shortly afterwards, most of them angry swears.

Also if someone could put up with that kind of pain to get close enough to be a danger, i still have a shotgun. Loaded or not i could just gun butt him in the back of the head to knock him out, and disarm him in the meantime.

Well, yes, true, but still it was IN HER BATHROOM, and it still presented a danger, maby if she was a full grown man, but at the same time, either way she stopped the criminal.

Go search "close range shotgun wounds" on Google Images then tell me that an average man would be a credible threat with one of those.

And yes, knee injuries hurt, ive suffered haveing dislocated my knee 80 degrees out of place (the ambulance ride and the pain meds with oxygen made it worth it.

When you put it that way, it almost sounds as if it was on purpose.

 

[orangeban]

I said nothing about the victims, didn't mention that. I simply said that criminals aren't bad people and don't deserve to die or live in prison for the rest of their life.

...........

criminals aren't bad people

buddy....have you ever heard of people like Ed Gien, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and John Wayne Gacy?

The fact that people like those 4 existed in this world removes anything valid from that sentence.

Let us look at Jeffrey Dahmer, the man was diagnosed with several mental illnesses (I think it was a form in psychosis to be specific).

They're pretty sure Ted Bundy had bipolar or something along those lines

Ed Gein was abused in childhood and was raised to think that all women were prostitutes

John Wayne Gacy was molested and abused in childhood

These aren't people who are commiting crime because they're soulless bastards, they commit the crime because of their own serious problems, problems that prison should try to address.

Dude, bipolar does not make some one a mass murderer. so i award no points.
Even if they WERE prostitutes, that wouldnt hold up in court because whore have rights too. No points awarded.
John Wayne Gacy had a life to learn right and wrong
or how about the child molesters and murderers who are completely sound but are just evil people.
our how about hitler, stalin, ect. care to defend them on mental grounds?
How about the kids at columbine? or the virginia tech guy?

fact is, some people are beyond help and deserve what ever life dishes out to them

Depends on the sort of bipolar I suspect.
Yeah, but he was also raised with the idea of "women = prositutes, prostitutes = bad", and other iffy stuff, like apparently his mother read him loads of bible passages about murder.
Abuse and molestation can cause life-long mental disorders
Stalin was clinically paranoid, Hitler probably had something wrong with him (we don't know for sure).

But if we look more at Hitler, I'm going to say something that is probably quite shocking, but Hitler wasn't evil. What he did was awful, one of the worst acts ever committed. The act was evil, but Hitler wasn't. Why not? Because he had reasons.

Whether he did it because he thought Jews, communists and all the rest should actually die, or just to use them as a scape-goat, he did it because he genuinally thought he was doing what was right for his people.

Now, I'm in no way calling the Holocaust justifiable, or calling Hitler right, or anything ridiculous like that, I'm just saying that in Hitler's mind, he had a very, very good reason for his actions.

 

[Jegsimmons]

I would call it justified, though if it was me i would have blasted out thier knees instead of merely killing them.

well when its a woman and her baby, their isnt much option, especially since he had a knife, he could have decided to just have crawled to them.
also, leg wounds can be equally lethal.

I dont think you understand how much a mangled knee can hurt, my sister tore hers up pretty badly (internally) in early 2011, when the doctors finally decided something was wrong and took her to hospital i could hear her sreaming in pain over the ambulance siren, while we were on opposite sides of the ambulance.

On a side note, if you must know what i mean by "finally decided something was wrong" she had an unusual injury to her kneecap that didnt show up on X-ray, so they decided she was overreacting and sent her home. MRI scan fixed that though, and many words were had shortly afterwards, most of them angry swears.

Also if someone could put up with that kind of pain to get close enough to be a danger, i still have a shotgun. Loaded or not i could just gun butt him in the back of the head to knock him out, and disarm him in the meantime.

Well, yes, true, but still it was IN HER BATHROOM, and it still presented a danger, maby if she was a full grown man, but at the same time, either way she stopped the criminal.

Go search "close range shotgun wounds" on Google Images then tell me that an average man would be a credible threat with one of those.

And yes, knee injuries hurt, ive suffered haveing dislocated my knee 80 degrees out of place (the ambulance ride and the pain meds with oxygen made it worth it.

When you put it that way, it almost sounds as if it was on purpose.

not really, i dont think it be worth it a second time, that shit hurt. also, i like being able to walk.